The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Supermodel From Paris]

Most of the the characters in the top spots have proven themselves to be more than just theorycrafting. The ones that haven't are the ones I've complained about (read: G&W).

Totally agree about G&W.

However, many characters stopped winning months ago. ROB doesn't place. Kirby doesn't place often. ICs do, but not well enough or often enough to justify the position if ZSS is 15th (again, I only mention ZSS because I know her placings and metagame, there are probably other examples I could have used). Marth doesn't place well without a secondary that can take MK. Where's the equality in perception?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Totally agree about G&W.

However, many characters stopped winning months ago. ROB doesn't place. Kirby doesn't place often. ICs do, but not well enough or often enough to justify the position if ZSS is 15th (again, I only mention ZSS because I know her placings and metagame, there are probably other examples I could have used). Marth doesn't place well without a secondary that can take MK. Where's the equality in perception?

People are dumb. All the characters you've mentioned (although Marth is to a lesser degree) are characters I have adamantly expressed those same feelings on.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

People are dumb. All the characters you've mentioned (although Marth is to a lesser degree) are characters I have adamantly expressed those same feelings on.

This is how Dark Pch feels about Peach. He isn't expressing his feeling well, but it is 100% valid and doesn't deserve a write off.

 

[Ant1]

What would u have ZSS at then SPF?
I would never put her above Lucario. I think she is fine where she is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What would u have ZSS at then SPF?
I would never put her above Lucario.

I don't really want to argue about ZSS. My opinions on the current tier list are somewhat radical and would only spark debate about how dumb I am and I'm not interested. The tier list is created by people in top hats and monocles. There's very little scientific or results-based basis to it. It is mostly theory and isn't even properly weighted theory. Character placings are seemingly random and based on perceptions of said individuals that are months out of date and on lingering vague notions of days passed.

I will say this: ZSS is every bit as good as if not better than most characters in high tier. She is better than Lucario. She is better than Kirby, ROB, and ICs. She is probably better than GAW. She may not be a "better" character than Marth, but she is more tourney viable and given an equal amount of players at the national level would easily be more successful in the current metagame (which is why Wario is so high, I remind you). She is one of few characters in the cast that can win a large tourney without a secondary other than MK, because she has no unwinnable match-ups. If you don't believe me, read the last page. And yeah, Snakeee used a secondary, but mostly Zelda and a little Sheik, not characters that cover any of ZSS' bad matchups to any degree.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I'm happy people are starting to say GaW is overrated. lol I don't think ZSS is better than him or Icies though. Although you can ignore that since my ZSS experience is rather limited. T_T

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm happy people are starting to say GaW is overrated. lol I don't think ZSS is better than him or Icies though. Although you can ignore that since my ZSS experience is rather limited. T_T

It depends how you define "better." It seems that the higher up we go on the tier list, the more it has to do with how the characters do against their "peers," that is, how they do against other high and top tiers. The mid tier characters aren't often given that luxury and are forced to constantly argue about their individual facets. They have their weaknesses tossed in their faces when many of those weaknesses are worked around or aren't important. Meanwhile, Diddy loses to several mid tier characters and is S tier because he goes even with Meta Knight.

ZSS goes roughly even with Meta Knight. Ask Snakeee yourself. The matchup is about even. If MK wins, it is by no more than 5 BSFRP (bull**** fantasy ratio points). Snakeee beat every MK he played that day on his way up the ladder, 2 stocking Inui (and getting beat by his Ike, lololol).

So where's the distinction? Why aren't we weighing all characters against the top tiers? So ZSS loses to Sheik by 10 BSFRP. She loses to Diddy by 5 and MK by probably 5. She gets gayed by Falco. But Marth gets gayed by MK (and arguably the other top tiers as well) and it's not stopping the SBR from viewing him as #7.

The list is inconsistent and makes no sense. Accept it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Holy crap, seriously. I've been sitting there on the sidelines in this, but I felt it needs this contribution.
First off, you can claim to have the greatest knowledge of peach going around, fine you probably do. But do you have the greatest knowledge of Pit and DK? You don't? Ohhh then how can you compare there abilities, you know far more tricks with Peach than with those 2 chars, therefore you know peach as a better characters, the fact of the matter is that Pit and DK mains have there own little tricks too, that make their char better.

I'm so Glad you said this. How can Others compare Peach to DK and Pit to say that they are better with now much knowlege on Peach. Whats these tricks that make then better. I wanna hear this. But this right here can be used against you and everyone else easy.

The SBR might not know Peach as good as you do but they know Peach/Pit/DK at a competent enough level to know their tricks, so therefore can make a comparison of the two more effectively.

Oh really, to a point when I question them I got weak to no answers at all? The only way they were compared in the SBR was by voting (from what I was told) You call that a competent level? You call that knowing all three enough to state who belongs over who?

Dark.Pch, dude seriously all you've stated pretty much is blah blah blah Peach has a killing problem, but she has the tools to get around it, therefore she is better than Pit and DK. Well guess what the fact of the matter is that these two chars don't have as great a killing problem as peach which (assuming all other traits are the same), puts them over Peach from a base level.

I explained much more than Peach and her killing strats/issuse. I'm sorry if you don't wanna go back and read it but I should not have to answer or make things clear 100 times when I did and people still asking the same questions. And this is not only about killing (as I said for like the 100th time already) Stop focusing on that so much with this, same with everyone else. I already went on about the killing, and I am not even using this as a tool to state she is better than DK and Pit, that is stupid when they kill better than her. but people need to know about this character and what she can do, wether it is good or not. And I explained about her killing as KNOWING ABOUT THE CHARACTER AND WHAT SHE CAN/HAS TO DO ABOUT IT Never using this to help say Peach is better than DK and Pit. I think thats where people got me wrong, well allow me to clear that up now.

You then proceed to say that Peach's fair is decayed because of players who play her, well in the current metagame fact is that Fair is most Peach main's spacing move, which means that in the current metagame it tends to be decayed. You can say that they have all other options all you want but the fact is that in the current metagame it overall is. The next point is that the tier list is based on the current metagame, making the connection it is assumed that Fair is her main spacing tool on the tier list, and that it will be decayed.

Her meta game does not need her to fair. again, who the heck is saying that Peach needs to be using that move so much. Who? why, How does it lead to this. The only thing I heard to this is that I need that move to space. That is sure as hell not the only move Peach has to space well with. heck no. You always see Peach players wanting to Fair to jabs right? Does Peach Need to do that? Is it a must, can she not do oh the 100+ things in place of that? Does she have to use that move so much? No, that is the answer, she does not, and I have said this many times in the Peach boards. Players are why it is stale. It's not the characters fault or doing or metagame. Seriously is not.

Next point is peach's up close game, admittedly this is better than probably DK's but IMO is around Pits (maybe a shade better). Thats great, but you can't just look at the close range game, DK absolutely kills Peach in mid range department with his far reaching relatively unpunishable tilts, and Pit has a greater long range game (arrows combined with his shield effectively means that he has weaker camping skills but can counter other chars camping far more effectively).

Ok see look at this. See what is in red? You right, I can't and I wasn't. That was one of the things I had to state in terms of discribing my Character and things she has over the other. Just like I said they kill better. ok, they got that. My Upclose game is better. Ok we got that, Next something about DK/Pit that is good/bad and same with Peach. it goes back and fourth when talking about the characters. if I am gonna go on about why My character is better, then I have to state the reason and these are it. Don't get it twisted, I am not saying this is all that matters, I sataing just one of the other things that say to me Peach is better and has over them, just as others have been doing with DK and PIT (the ones that can even explain themselfs that is.)

So far we've gotten Peach better close range, DK better Mid and Pit better Long, wow they all even out, putting us back to comparing other facts of their respective games.

I can safely assume right now that if you are saying this, you clearly did not read the other stuff that I have said that Peach is better than these 2. Because I pasted it about 3-4 times. I did not only get on those points, I got on much more than that.

You mention Peach's spacing, don't try and say that Peach has better spacing options than DK that is blatantly untrue, on the topic of Pit I'm not sure, but I think Peach my have the edge.

I explained this too. But if you wanna know, I suggest you explain how his spacing options are better. But i'll say this before you begin. peach has more speed in her spacing and can follow up quick. And creates a wall with the correct spacing, can be hard to go through, even for a character like Marth. Ask Neo and NinjaLink about that one if you don't belive this cause Marth>Peach. Now lets here you talk aboput Dk's and yes there is more to add about spacing, I just added half of it. Now it is your turn sir.

And on the topic of Viability, we have DK being made unviable from D3, a common matchup, then we have peach being shutdown by MK, and Pit GnW? Not sure on that, where I'm from Pit is a very viable character.

Pit shutting down Peach, not even close, with what his camping? No I explained what Peach can do about his camping like 3 times. G&W and watch does not ether (oh man, waits for the post from people about this one, I just know it) Meta is a tuff *******, yea but she can manage with him. Now hold on, before people flip out, let me just say this, Meta is not a match up for Peach. it is not cute, I kid you not. But getting lots of experience from metas like M2K, teh spammer, judge and a few more. I learned my ways around this and deal with him trying to shut me down. May not always work, bet I am not perfect, no one is. he can shut her down yes, but she can also deal with it and hang with meta to have a chance of beating his azz. BUT PLEASE FROM WHAT I JUSY SAID DON'T GET IT TWIESTED AND ASSUME THE OTHER WAY AROUND OF WHAT I AM GETTING AT HERE

Guess what Peach gets countered by a far more common match then either of them, so don't pull that card (this depends on whether D3's infinite is banned, if its not DK is viable as long as you're opponent didn't lose the last match, picking D3 is pretty much auto win in response to DK).

Oh really now? Why don't you name these match ups for me. And there is no point for me to get at the infinite on DK, that is part of the match up sadly. Banning that does not take away the logic and aspect of the match up wether people like it or not. it's unfair to DK and one grab is a stock (I think?) But the true still stands. All the bann does is make it less stressful for DK to kick azz.

Overall my point is that you can't just look at Peach's good facets, you need to compare every part of a characters game when talking about tier placement, something you are not currently doing. What you are doing is conceding one of her weaknesses then saying "But she has good parts as well". You are not discussing all facets and when you do and prove that overall peach is better then you will get more mature responses.

You are right, I do need to compare every part of the characters game. And you calm I was not doing that. See now there is a loophole in that. I was mostly explaining the character in general so people can understand her full. Then I can comapre and people could be Like'Oh ok so from what he said and I got, Peach got this and that over these 2. Then he also said this at that so DK and Pit have this and that over Peach." From the info I have been stating, once people see that, then we can go on about comparing. I can't compare things to people if they know lil to nothing about it. Thats why i did Not get to much into it Well in a way I did. But I been mostly stating ifo on peach in general. Same time going in about Peach and DK/Pit. I have explained myself with Peach. others could not say much for DK/Pit, really the SBR.


Holy **** dude, i must say, this one was freaking fun to do. it was so simple and you was not acting like the others. nice and clean. you have my respect. this is a guy I can talk to and get into it with. damm this lighten my mood a lil. Sweet!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't really follow ratios. I think they're dumb and too inconsistent to be used anyway with the stages we have and what not. I just kind of... take what I think in my head and weigh them against each other. It's a good thing I'm not a BRoomer lol.

 

[Jupz]

Dark Peach, I think what Nix is trying to say is that you have WAY more knowledge with Peach then DK or Pit, therefore you make a biased decision as to why she is better then them. Reflex or other SBR members don't have the same amount of Peach knowledge as you, but have has equal knowledge of Peach, Pit and DK and can therefore make an unbiased decision. To be un-biased, you have to have an equal amount of knowledge about each of the characters metagames you are comparing.

Not trying to take sides but I just wanted to point something out I've noticed during my reading of the past few pages of the thread

 

[Collective of Bears]

For how many pages have we been discussing DK/Pit/Peach now?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

We could always go back to Fire Emblem Tiers.

 

[Red Arremer]

Gradius Gaiden for Top Tier.

 

[Shaya]

Lol @ Supermodel.

Marth wins against Wario, Falco and Diddy. No one really credible on either side of the 'coin' has said otherwise (even though some diddys are starting to say its around even; Pierce7d and ADHD [who regularly vs eachother] still agree it's 60:40 marth's advantage]). So thats 50% of top tier he wins against; and the other 50% he doesn't win against (yet you have reputable snakes such as Candy saying its 50/50) and Dedede hasn't been rediscussed in a very long time.

Marth is the ultimate pretty god **** good but not broken good character.

 

[Nixernator]

Jupz, you hit the nail on the head. The point is that with all your postings about Peach's overall strength's and weaknesses, you have (as of yet) not compared them to the characters you are claiming are worse than peach. I understand that you are trying to clear up some misconceptions before you make the reasons that are behind your beliefs but the fact of the matter is, that you haven't specifically stated why Peach is better than these Chars, all you've done is explain why Peach is better than many people give her credit for. They will not take you seriously (that is they will not accept your opinion or even consider it) until you take your established base, and then use it against an established base of the other chars to prove that peach is better.

Thanks, first wall of text I ever bothered to write on smash boards.

Also to everyone complaining about how long we've spent discussing peach, how long did we spend discussing FE and mother 3 pray tell?
Edit: Ninja'd about FE by Terios and Spadefox. I don't think I can make another good argument just now I'm tired as. I'll read over your stuff again Dark and go from there.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dark Peach, I think what Nix is trying to say is that you have WAY more knowledge with Peach then DK or Pit, therefore you make a biased decision as to why she is better then them. Reflex or other SBR members don't have the same amount of Peach knowledge as you, but have has equal knowledge of Peach, Pit and DK and can therefore make an unbiased decision. To be un-biased, you have to have an equal amount of knowledge about each of the characters metagames you are comparing.

Not trying to take sides but I just wanted to point something out I've noticed during my reading of the past few pages of the thread

I have way more knowledge with Peach than DK and Pit. ok then. This same example I could be use right against the SBR And Proved that already when I asked my question about Pit and DK when I first posted in here starting this up. Not one person was able to tell me any different or more than what I have said in the SBR. So If I am bias, then they are far much more than I am.

The question I have been asking I have asked for a reason. This is too see just how much they know about these characters and just how they can say they are better abd be sure of it. And of course that can be smacked right back at me no?

I did not come here to change her placing, That was not my goal, cause even if they were to believe that Peach was better, I say they won't change a darn thing and she be where she is. Same time this is a thread about characters and their placement and I have the right to go on about why I feel she should not be where she is. Just how the SBR feels Peach belongs under DK/Pit. Just how my statement is an opinion, I am explaining myself to why I say she is better, Others could not even do half the job from the SBR. They VOTED her to be below them to begin with.

So if I was to get this, then the SBR sure as hell has to get it first and way more.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lol @ Supermodel.

Marth wins against Wario, Falco and Diddy. No one really credible on either side of the 'coin' has said otherwise (even though some diddys are starting to say its around even; Pierce7d and ADHD [who regularly vs eachother] still agree it's 60:40 marth's advantage]). So thats 50% of top tier he wins against; and the other 50% he doesn't win against (yet you have reputable snakes such as Candy saying its 50/50) and Dedede hasn't been rediscussed in a very long time.

Marth is the ultimate pretty god **** good but not broken good character.

The only character I said he gets owned by is MK and it was only to illustrate that apparently one bad matchup apparently doesn't kill Marth on the tier list but it does ZSS. He loses to Snake and maybe Dedede like you said. He's still not viable in large competitive tourneys as a solo character any more than ZSS is, and probably less so.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Jupz, you hit the nail on the head. The point is that with all your postings about Peach's overall strength's and weaknesses, you have (as of yet) not compared them to the characters you are claiming are worse than peach. I understand that you are trying to clear up some misconceptions before you make the reasons that are behind your beliefs but the fact of the matter is, that you haven't specifically stated why Peach is better than these Chars, all you've done is explain why Peach is better than many people give her credit for. They will not take you seriously (that is they will not accept your opinion or even consider it) until you take your established base, and then use it against an established base of the other chars to prove that peach is better.

Thanks, first wall of text I ever bothered to write on smash boards.

Also to everyone complaining about how long we've spent discussing peach, how long did we spend discussing FE and mother 3 pray tell?
Edit: Ninja'd about FE by Terios and Spadefox. I don't think I can make another good argument just now I'm tired as. I'll read over your stuff again Dark and go from there.

Thats cool dude and I know what you mean. but also realize that i said I explain myself on points on why Peach was better than PIT/DK, same time going on about Peach. But people were asking questions about Peach or saying thing about her that are not true, so I went and had to clear that up. thus took most of my time instead of getting into detail on comparing these three.

But serious, you got my respect and a dude I can talk too. Also you are welcome on writing your first essay, fun eh? Ha ha ha! Well for me at least, you might not like it.

 

[Shaya]

In super theory bros hes the second safest character in the game to main.

After that you could say that Lucario/Toon Link are next in line. And hell they're top of their tiers, just like Marth is, and just like Meta Knight is.

(Oh, I do know that Snake is the second best character in the game to main: obviously, i'm discerning general safety as a slightly different criteria though).

 

[mountain_tiger]

I will say this: ZSS is every bit as good as if not better than most characters in high tier. She is better than Lucario. She is better than Kirby, ROB, and ICs. She is probably better than GAW.

Supermodel, I respect your opinion and all, but I need to point something out to you. You can definitely argue that she's better than Lucario, ROB and the IC, and you can sort of argue that she's better than a Kirby (though personally I'd disagree with that), but let me tell you that there is NO WAY that ZSS is better than Mr. Game and Watch.

Admittedly, ZSS does have the upper hand in certain aspects. She's better at spacing, what with her forward B, and her attacks have more range, but otherwise Game and Watch beates her for sure. For a start, his ooS options are way better than ours. Our shieldgrab is ludicrously slow, and in terms of viable ooS options we only have SH Nair, and to some extent SH Fair. Mr. Game and Watch, on the other hand, can shieldgrab, SH Nair, SH Fair, up B etc. That ends up being pretty important.

Then there's his air game, which is just too good. Nair and Bair are especially deadly, with super high priority, multiple hits and good damage racking abilities. SDI makes them slightyl less painful, but they're still pretty annoying. Plus he has Fair for gimps and Uair for refreshing moves.

He also has a much easier time killing us than we can kill him. Despite him being the second lightest character in the game, he can use Bucket Braking to great effect, allowing him to survive longer than us even though he's lighter. His overall kill options are also just generally better. As ZSS, we have Bair, down B and forward B which, when fresh, kill at about 110-120%. Fair can be used if you conenct with the second kick, but that isn't as useful overall. Mr. Game and Watch, on the other hand, can KO with all three of his smashes, which are all very strong and fast. FSmash is the strongest of all, and DSmash can be linked into after DThrow. As well as that, he also has Fair, which is particularly useful when edgeguarding, and Nair and Bair are also pretty useful for edgeguarding your opponent.

So basically what I'm saying is, ZSS is definitely not better than Mr. Game and Watch, though I agree that she's definitely got potential.

 

[Nixernator]

Ok I think I can do it, my responses not in red, I don't know how to do the fancy quote stuff.

I'm so Glad you said this. How can Others compare Peach to DK and Pit to say that they are better with now much knowlege on Peach. Whats these tricks that make then better. I wanna hear this. But this right here can be used against you and everyone else easy.

Well, DK doesn't have many "tricks" perse, he has a solid base of a char, and uses his decent base traits to win matches. Overall he controls the game using his decent spacing, strong power and heavy weight. DK makes you scared, he is a powerhouse where he can shutdown your whole game if he wants to (more on that later).
Wow Pit, Pit has well arrow looping (Inb4 noone gets hit by Pits arrows, or lol ps them nub), the fact is you are always keeping one eye on him and probably one eye on his arrows. Brawl is about punishment, and not focusing entirely on one thing leads to careless mistakes. He has a what 4 frame Fsmash, with power, priority, and a bit of range. Can eat through you're aerial approaches with higher priority ones (Did I mention his Uair>>>> Pretty much every Dair in game). He can do some funky things with his up-b, glides, multiple jumps, sword. He has a lot of tricks. Now I'm not comparing these to peach I'm just stating some things I know of these characters.


Oh really, to a point when I question them I got weak to no answers at all? The only way they were compared in the SBR was by voting (from what I was told) You call that a competent level? You call that knowing all three enough to state who belongs over who?

That's a recurring theme from many a member, but you have to realise that even if they are not the most knowledgeable Peach players, they are in the SBR for a reason. That is they know a lot about the game, they use this Knowledge to judge the characters as they see in the highest level at the highest level. Or they are top players, combining this, the top players can assess other top players, and all their tricks, they use this in conjunction with the knowledge to assess how effective it is overall. They might not all have extreme knowledge about every char but overall through the sharing of info and debates I'm sure they should have a fair idea of what they are capable of.

I explained much more than Peach and her killing strats/issuse. I'm sorry if you don't wanna go back and read it but I should not have to answer or make things clear 100 times when I did and people still asking the same questions. And this is not only about killing (as I said for like the 100th time already) Stop focusing on that so much with this, same with everyone else. I already went on about the killing, and I am not even using this as a tool to state she is better than DK and Pit, that is stupid when they kill better than her. but people need to know about this character and what she can do, wether it is good or not. And I explained about her killing as KNOWING ABOUT THE CHARACTER AND WHAT SHE CAN/HAS TO DO ABOUT IT Never using this to help say Peach is better than DK and Pit. I think thats where people got me wrong, well allow me to clear that up now.

Good, but the problem is you still haven't stated what makes her better than these other chars, you got too sidetracked in the mini flame war and never developed a strong argument for your viewpoint.



Her meta game does not need her to fair. again, who the heck is saying that Peach needs to be using that move so much. Who? why, How does it lead to this. The only thing I heard to this is that I need that move to space. That is sure as hell not the only move Peach has to space well with. heck no. You always see Peach players wanting to Fair to jabs right? Does Peach Need to do that? Is it a must, can she not do oh the 100+ things in place of that? Does she have to use that move so much? No, that is the answer, she does not, and I have said this many times in the Peach boards. Players are why it is stale. It's not the characters fault or doing or metagame. Seriously is not.

I never said that they couldn't use Fair to jab, what I mean by metagame is that is what 90% of peach mains do. They have better options but all that is seen in the current climate is Peach mains abusing Fair and until they stop that that is what the SBR will judge it off. I agree with you that they need to stop using this but for some reason Peach mains still abuse Fair leading to her metagame being in a state where one of her better kill moves is always decayed. I play Zamus, I know this feeling with her side-b, there are other options but overall it tends to be decayed and as such I never consider it as a kill move.


Ok see look at this. See what is in red? You right, I can't and I wasn't. That was one of the things I had to state in terms of discribing my Character and things she has over the other. Just like I said they kill better. ok, they got that. My Upclose game is better. Ok we got that, Next something about DK/Pit that is good/bad and same with Peach. it goes back and fourth when talking about the characters. if I am gonna go on about why My character is better, then I have to state the reason and these are it. Don't get it twisted, I am not saying this is all that matters, I sataing just one of the other things that say to me Peach is better and has over them, just as others have been doing with DK and PIT (the ones that can even explain themselfs that is.)

Thats fine but still you are yet to make that vital comparison.


I can safely assume right now that if you are saying this, you clearly did not read the other stuff that I have said that Peach is better than these 2. Because I pasted it about 3-4 times. I did not only get on those points, I got on much more than that.

I read it, this is a lead in paragraph, I explain better further down.

I explained this too. But if you wanna know, I suggest you explain how his spacing options are better. But i'll say this before you begin. peach has more speed in her spacing and can follow up quick. And creates a wall with the correct spacing, can be hard to go through, even for a character like Marth. Ask Neo and NinjaLink about that one if you don't belive this cause Marth>Peach. Now lets here you talk aboput Dk's and yes there is more to add about spacing, I just added half of it. Now it is your turn sir.


OK, DK has better spacing options, Peach can be more mobile all she wants but DK can and will shut down more approaches and be able to outrange (IE SPACE) with his attacks. His Bair is ridiculous in the air, seriously don't mess with it, and Uair is also good (not really spacing tho), I'm not sure exactly but I"m fairly certain that DK's Bair has a longer reach than peaches aerial spacers.
On the ground DK has a better grab range (can punish attacks that are blocked far easier), has his Down-b to COMPLETELY SHUTDOWN people on the ground, the disjoint and range on that has ridiculous potential if used correctly. He has larger range on his Ftilt, meaning he doesn't have to move more often meaning his opponents need to work harder to get within striking distance, and his Dtilt is godly. Also his Neutral - B has super armour and kills, like "Suprise your attack was ineffective get *****".
Now prove Peach spaces better.


Pit shutting down Peach, not even close, with what his camping? No I explained what Peach can do about his camping like 3 times. G&W and watch does not ether (oh man, waits for the post from people about this one, I just know it) Meta is a tuff *******, yea but she can manage with him. Now hold on, before people flip out, let me just say this, Meta is not a match up for Peach. it is not cute, I kid you not. But getting lots of experience from metas like M2K, teh spammer, judge and a few more. I learned my ways around this and deal with him trying to shut me down. May not always work, bet I am not perfect, no one is. he can shut her down yes, but she can also deal with it and hang with meta to have a chance of beating his azz. BUT PLEASE FROM WHAT I JUSY SAID DON'T GET IT TWIESTED AND ASSUME THE OTHER WAY AROUND OF WHAT I AM GETTING AT HERE

Woops I meant Pit gets shutdown by GnW I didn't word it right.
But yes GnW and MK shutdown peach fairly well, tourny viability is overall the same here.

Oh really now? Why don't you name these match ups for me. And there is no point for me to get at the infinite on DK, that is part of the match up sadly. Banning that does not take away the logic and aspect of the match up wether people like it or not. it's unfair to DK and one grab is a stock (I think?) But the true still stands. All the bann does is make it less stressful for DK to kick azz.

There's only one really needed, MK is her hardest matchup (correct?) and guess what, everyone and their mum mains him. Face it the most common MU in the tourny scene is her hardest. Yes DK/D3 is dumb, he is completely viable with a decent 2nd but that isn't the argument here.

You are right, I do need to compare every part of the characters game. And you calm I was not doing that. See now there is a loophole in that. I was mostly explaining the character in general so people can understand her full. Then I can comapre and people could be Like'Oh ok so from what he said and I got, Peach got this and that over these 2. Then he also said this at that so DK and Pit have this and that over Peach." From the info I have been stating, once people see that, then we can go on about comparing. I can't compare things to people if they know lil to nothing about it. Thats why i did Not get to much into it Well in a way I did. But I been mostly stating ifo on peach in general. Same time going in about Peach and DK/Pit. I have explained myself with Peach. others could not say much for DK/Pit, really the SBR.

Well there we go I started the trend, prove me wrong and all that.

Ha, the internet is serious business.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Supermodel, I respect your opinion and all, but I need to point something out to you. You can definitely argue that she's better than Lucario, ROB and the IC, and you can sort of argue that she's better than a Kirby (though personally I'd disagree with that), but let me tell you that there is NO WAY that ZSS is better than Mr. Game and Watch.

Admittedly, ZSS does have the upper hand in certain aspects. She's better at spacing, what with her forward B, and her attacks have more range, but otherwise Game and Watch beates her for sure. For a start, his ooS options are way better than ours. Our shieldgrab is ludicrously slow, and in terms of viable ooS options we only have SH Nair, and to some extent SH Fair. Mr. Game and Watch, on the other hand, can shieldgrab, SH Nair, SH Fair, up B etc. That ends up being pretty important.

Then there's his air game, which is just too good. Nair and Bair are especially deadly, with super high priority, multiple hits and good damage racking abilities. SDI makes them slightyl less painful, but they're still pretty annoying. Plus he has Fair for gimps and Uair for refreshing moves.

He also has a much easier time killing us than we can kill him. Despite him being the second lightest character in the game, he can use Bucket Braking to great effect, allowing him to survive longer than us even though he's lighter. His overall kill options are also just generally better. As ZSS, we have Bair, down B and forward B which, when fresh, kill at about 110-120%. Fair can be used if you conenct with the second kick, but that isn't as useful overall. Mr. Game and Watch, on the other hand, can KO with all three of his smashes, which are all very strong and fast. FSmash is the strongest of all, and DSmash can be linked into after DThrow. As well as that, he also has Fair, which is particularly useful when edgeguarding, and Nair and Bair are also pretty useful for edgeguarding your opponent.

So basically what I'm saying is, ZSS is definitely not better than Mr. Game and Watch, though I agree that she's definitely got potential.

First of all, this is not a match-up discussion and even if it was ZSS destroys G&W, that is commonly accepted.

ZSS has slightly below average OOS options, but she has a few good ones. Uair is good. Ftilt is great. dtilt would be better if you didn't have to release shield first. SH nair is also a really good option against tall characters.

Our shield grab may be bad, but our throws are equally bad in most cases so I don't see why you'd be grabbing except to punish shields or to chain grab.

ZSS' air game is indisputably better than G&W's air game. ZSS' air game is no worse than third in the cast. Her uair has god priority, a disjointed hitbox, ridiculous range, etc. No aerial truly beats her uair except lucario's dair after 100% and I would happily test this out on wifi with you if you'd like to disagree. Her bair and fair are both extremely strong attacks that combo into each other at low percents. ZSS has two very high jumps, and can boost both of her jumps using up+b. Try it, she goes off the screen in FD, making her potentially in certain situations the highest jumper in the game. She falls at a good speed, making mixups very easy and intuitive. Her nair has special attack priority and beats a lot of things. Her down b kick kills early, spikes, and beats the **** tornado.

No one beats ZSS' air game, not even Wario or MK. You could argue that ZSS' air game is the entire reason she's a good character, except that her ground game isn't even that bad. Her dash attack combos into itself at mid percents, her tilts have high priority and range and set up for aerial combos, her dsmash is of obvoius use and has transcendent priority, and her usmash is great too. Fsmash sucks. So what? Side b.

G&W may kill earlier, but that's not a big deal. Diddy Kong has a very hard time scoring kills much of the time and it's not stopping him, and ZSS scores kills easier than Diddy does by a fair margin.

G&W has a lot of powerful traits but he's not better than ZSS, sorry. His attacks are telegraphed, he has multiple bad matchups, he's owned by campers and anyone with a projectile (bucket lag says hi) and is pretty easy to kill even with bucket breaking. ZSS has only one truly bad matchup and their recovery is comparable (although G&W does have the edge).

 

[Nixernator]

I believe you're wrong Zamus has decent Throws (Edit: Thanks Terios) (CG fthrow, Dthrow is useful for setups, for juggling that goes with teh whole Zamus is good in the air). But yes her Shield grab is dumb.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Those are throws. Not grabs. lol

 

[Jupz]

I have way more knowledge with Peach than DK and Pit. ok then. This same example I could be use right against the SBR And Proved that already when I asked my question about Pit and DK when I first posted in here starting this up. Not one person was able to tell me any different or more than what I have said in the SBR. So If I am bias, then they are far much more than I am.

The question I have been asking I have asked for a reason. This is too see just how much they know about these characters and just how they can say they are better abd be sure of it. And of course that can be smacked right back at me no?

I did not come here to change her placing, That was not my goal, cause even if they were to believe that Peach was better, I say they won't change a darn thing and she be where she is. Same time this is a thread about characters and their placement and I have the right to go on about why I feel she should not be where she is. Just how the SBR feels Peach belongs under DK/Pit. Just how my statement is an opinion, I am explaining myself to why I say she is better, Others could not even do half the job from the SBR. They VOTED her to be below them to begin with.

So if I was to get this, then the SBR sure as hell has to get it first and way more.

I know you didn't come here to change her placing, and I have learned a little myself about Peach from reading what you've posted. I'm a little confused by your reply; I can't seem to see what you're getting at here. Are you saying you're disappointed that the SBR didn't give you a proper explanation of why Peach is worse then DK and Pit? I was trying to say that the SBR have a combined knowledge of all the characters equally and do not specialise on one character, although they have a good-enough knowledge of each characters metagame. This allows them to make unbiased decisions on characters. I wasn't using the example against you, I was just stating a point. I could use the same example against me:
My top 2 most played characters are DDD and Falco, and my least played is Peach. I have a poor knowledge of Peach compared to my knowledge of the other two characters. The thing is, in SSBB, extra knowledge of characters is mostly good things about the characters. The only notable exception to this I can think of right now is Wario's grab releases. If we start at a basic level, we can see that someone who knows about DDD's chaingrab will think DDD is a better character then someone who dosen't know about it. The other person, however, might know about the Ice Climbers infinites while the first person does not. The first person will be a lot more biased towards DDD and rate him higher and will think the Ice Climbers are terrible and rate them low. The opposite goes for the second person. See what I mean?
I was trying to say that you had more knowledge of Peach, and so knew she had more advantages then what most people gave her credit for. However, you might not have had the same amount of knowledge about DK or Pit, meaning you might not know their advantages as well. If one had the same amount of knowledge about both characters, it would allow them to make a completely unbiased decision.

Thanks for reading the post and replying, btw

Thats cool dude and I know what you mean. but also realize that i said I explain myself on points on why Peach was better than PIT/DK, same time going on about Peach. But people were asking questions about Peach or saying thing about her that are not true, so I went and had to clear that up. thus took most of my time instead of getting into detail on comparing these three.

But serious, you got my respect and a dude I can talk too. Also you are welcome on writing your first essay, fun eh? Ha ha ha! Well for me at least, you might not like it.

Ahh I think I'm beginning to understand now, you were just pointing out common misconceptions about Peach rather then contrasting the characters

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In super theory bros hes the second safest character in the game to main.

After that you could say that Lucario/Toon Link are next in line. And hell they're top of their tiers, just like Marth is, and just like Meta Knight is.

(Oh, I do know that Snake is the second best character in the game to main: obviously, i'm discerning general safety as a slightly different criteria though).

Curiously, what makes ZSS less safe than Lucario or Toon Link?

I'll say this again:

Even (45 to 55 ratio) or better with the whole cast save for:

Sheik (40:60)
Falco (35:65)

And because I'm cool like that, her 45:55s are:

MK
Diddy

 

[mountain_tiger]

So why exactly is ZSS at a disadvantage against Sheik? I seriously don't know... I realise why she's at a disadvantage against Falco though, so no need for any explanation on that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So why exactly is ZSS at a disadvantage against Sheik? I seriously don't know... I realise why she's at a disadvantage against Falco though, so no need for any explanation on that.

Faster aerials, needles to force approaches, ground speed being a non advantage, faster falling speed so we're easier for her to combo than she is for us.

Honestly I'm about the only ZSS player who thinks it's a "10 point" disadvantage, many ZSS players don't think it's that bad.

We do have some advantages: like most other characters, we are advantaged when we're underneath her. ZSS kills her earlier than she kills ZSS. She's easy for us to gimp offstage. Side b can be hard for her to space at midrange. Etc.

 

[Splice]

@ SFP (I didnt put the quotes in)

GaW has a better airgame than ZSS.
Fair - Sweetspot can kill around 100-115% and it can hit through and outrange most other aerials and some other moves (if spaced decemtly, it gets past Zards rocksmash, which is good im pretty sure)
Bair - Shield-breaking, approaching, comboing, easy use and can be used quickly and efficiently, and very good for edge-guarding.
Dair - Can get repetitive but is quite good coming in for landing against most characters, and can be slowed down and sped up for mindgames and other tricks.
Uair - Can gimp upwards, set-up kills, send falling characters off-stage to death, and even with out all the wind tricks, its still a decent killing move on second hit and goes through most dairs.
Nair - Combos and good for SH, can be fast-falled to follow air dodgers. Also hits through platforms effectively and can be combo'd into a jab.

GaW UpB ***** Tornado, (and most other things) and if you dont want to try hard Dair can too, but not as much.

His airials are overall better than ZSS as they have more capabilities.
You want to jump high into the air with your super jumps against me in a match?
GaW will beat you there. I know its not a matchup thing, but if ZSS has better airials she should want
GaW in the air if they were fighting a match, and well, she doesn't.

You said MKs air game isnt as good as ZSS's.... thats just silly imo, but ok, GaW is my argument.

You said ZSS kills better than Diddy who is higher than GaW. This means nothing.
You can't say
"GaW may have a better killing-game than ZSS, but ZSS is better than Diddys so it doesnt matter, coz diddy is higher"
Obviously Diddy has something else that makes him higher, hey?

Bucket breaking is great horizontally, Better than anything ZSS, especially with getting gimped so easy.
Upwards, yeah GaW does get killed easily (one of the reasons Snake is a bad match-up) and ZSS is probably better at surviving upwards, but she is one of the top 5-6 lightest characters in the game as well, remember.

GaW is better than ZSS overrall, even if she comes close in some departments.
I'm not going to argue by how much, but imo, he is better.


But i do agree she is pretty good and perhaps should be higher.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well, DK doesn't have many "tricks" perse, he has a solid base of a char, and uses his decent base traits to win matches. Overall he controls the game using his decent spacing, strong power and heavy weight. DK makes you scared, he is a powerhouse where he can shutdown your whole game if he wants to (more on that later).
Wow Pit, Pit has well arrow looping (Inb4 noone gets hit by Pits arrows, or lol ps them nub), the fact is you are always keeping one eye on him and probably one eye on his arrows. Brawl is about punishment, and not focusing entirely on one thing leads to careless mistakes. He has a what 4 frame Fsmash, with power, priority, and a bit of range. Can eat through you're aerial approaches with higher priority ones (Did I mention his Uair>>>> Pretty much every Dair in game). He can do some funky things with his up-b, glides, multiple jumps, sword. He has a lot of tricks. Now I'm not comparing these to peach I'm just stating some things I know of these characters.

Ok then sir. Now I will share my light on Peach, and just like you, I am not comapring these characters at all right now.

She Can be in someone and space the hell out of them and it be hard to get inside her cause Her spaced moves don't stay out for days. Also her air moves auto cancel. Ranges is not always the best choice for everything, for it can have its donwsides. Marth is a spacing God. But done right Marth can even have a hard time getting a clean shot on Peach. She has good range on her air attacks and speed with the spaceing.


Peach has alot of Approaches and good ones. More than DK. And of course with spacing, hard to punish or get baited into the approaches and take a hit.

- Fair
- FC>Fair
- Dair
- FC>Dair
- FC>Nair
- Turnip>Fair
- FC>Turnip>Fair
- Bair
- Glide tossing
- Nair

Advance approaches:

- Glide toss> FC>Nair
- Glide toss>reverse Bair
- Glide toss>Nair
- Glide toss>Grab
- Reverse Glide toss> Dsmash or Fsmash
- Reverse Glide toss> Bair

She is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to approaching.

Turnips. Turnips are not a weapon for damage. You just don't get one and toss them hoping to hit one. Turnips are a damm mindgame. Just by holding a turnip in your hand. You are already toying with your opponents head. When you get one, it buts your opponent on the defense cause they do not wanna get hit. You did not have to do anything to them to screw with them. Turnips are a tool to mess with the mind and THEN get your damage off.

"pluck turnip"
"toss it"

NO!^ There is about maybe 6 steps before you toss it. Also Peach can fight with items in her hand via floating. And she can bring that Floating to the ground for more of a confusing. Your opponent won't be able to tell when you will toss the damm turnip. She is like the drunken master. Maybe His wife, w/e. Just holding that thing in your hand can lead to so much confusing. Hell, might even confuse the hell out of you. Yes it is that serious.

Peach has options to recover.

Up-B (obviously)
F-B
Float
Toad


"But Peach is a sitting duck when she up-B. She is a goner"

Bad things always have an upside to it.

Done right. You can recover to the stage without ever having to up-B. I don't ever burn my jump unless I have too. Even when it looks like I should, I don't and I can make it back. Also when Peach gets the chance, she should ALWAYS recover High. F-B and toad help with this. Oh and guess what. From this you still have 2 recovery options left. Second Jump and up-B.

Also with her Up-B you can open and close it really quick and do quick momentum changes. Do that trick Excel spoke about with the C-stick. Also U can use toad to air stall to slightly increase evasion and land safe to the ground. I can go into so much much with this character, But I be here for a long time and this be the longest post I ever made, I kid you now, I could do it. it's that serious on how I can get info down with this character.

That's a recurring theme from many a member, but you have to realise that even if they are not the most knowledgeable Peach players, they are in the SBR for a reason. That is they know a lot about the game, they use this Knowledge to judge the characters as they see in the highest level at the highest level. Or they are top players, combining this, the top players can assess other top players, and all their tricks, they use this in conjunction with the knowledge to assess how effective it is overall. They might not all have extreme knowledge about every char but overall through the sharing of info and debates I'm sure they should have a fair idea of what they are capable of.

Just as they share info, I can address mines about my main and what I know. Being in the SBR does not mean you know everything about everything. And it also does not Mean you are right about stuff just cause you are a member. being in there does not mean you know or can speak up as much about my character as I have. people can be in there for many reasons. Those reasons don't matter to me. But again, just cause they are in there, does not mean they know ALOT about everything. And when it has come to Peach so far, no member in there could go on about my Peach or answer my question. They say DK and Pit are better but can't explain themself for their opinion. yet I state my opinion on why they are not and I at least explained myself.

Good, but the problem is you still haven't stated what makes her better than these other chars, you got too sidetracked in the mini flame war and never developed a strong argument for your viewpoint

I did. But just for you I'll do it again. Good thing I have patience for this. I'll start with DK.

Peach is a quicker brawler up close. Wether taking it to ground floating, which brings her air game to the ground and brings more upclose combat to the ground. DK is not faster than Peach in fighting up close. And with all her fighting options when in ones face Makes her a solid fighter and not much to fear

Ok Has More range. Ok. Peach has range as well and faster at spacing than DK is. She Can be in someone and space the hell out of them and it be hard to get inside her cause Her spaced moves don't stay out for days. Also her air moves auto cancel. Ranges is not always the best choice for everything, for it can have its donwsides. Marth is a spacing God. But done right Marth can even have a hard time getting a clean shot on Peach. She has good range on her air attacks and speed with the spaceing.

Oh and don't get me started on her ground spacing which is a mixture of evasion. And her Dtilt slide is a good toll for that. Dtilt somone and if they sheild it you can pull away to a Fsmash or Ftilt or jab if they wanna try and counter attack. If not get your space from the slide and get a turnip. Safe hit and run with a barrier or an extra toll you get (which is a turnip when moving back.

Peach has better evasion than DK, He is a Big as monkey who is not hard to hit. Even with that air speed he has. Her quick spacing makes it hard to hit (If the Peach player is great at spacing) So you can retreat and space to get space and not take a hit. Platforms help increase her evasion as well. This is why I love battlefield against Hard match ups. Cause you will need to evade alot.

Peach has alot of Approaches and good ones. More than DK. And of course with spacing, hard to punish or get baited into the approaches and take a hit.

- Fair
- FC>Fair
- Dair
- FC>Dair
- FC>Nair
- Turnip>Fair
- FC>Turnip>Fair
- Bair
- Glide tossing
- Nair

Advance approaches:

- Glide toss> FC>Nair
- Glide toss>reverse Bair
- Glide toss>Nair
- Glide toss>Grab
- Reverse Glide toss> Dsmash or Fsmash
- Reverse Glide toss> Bair

She is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to approaching.

Turnips. Turnips are not a weapon for damage. You just don't get one and toss them hoping to hit one. Turnips are a damm mindgame. Just by holding a turnip in your hand. You are already toying with your opponents head. When you get one, it buts your opponent on the defense cause they do not wanna get hit. You did not have to do anything to them to screw with them. Turnips are a tool to mess with the mind and THEN get your damage off.

"pluck turnip"
"toss it"

NO!^ There is about maybe 6 steps before you toss it. Also Peach can fight with items in her hand via floating. And she can bring that Floating to the ground for more of a confusing. Your opponent won't be able to tell when you will toss the damm turnip. She is like the drunken master. Maybe His wife, w/e. Just holding that thing in your hand can lead to so much confusing. Hell, might even confuse the hell out of you. Yes it is that serious.

Peach has More recovery Option Than DK. All he has is Up-B. Peach has:

Up-B (obviously)
F-B
Float
Toad

"But his Up-B Has super Armor and hard to edge guard"

Good things always have a downside to it. Done right you are able to force the player to a point where he has to aim for the edge or the stage. And when going to the stage, you can chase DK and punish upon his landing. And He can't turn the other way to escape. The momentum change is so slow.

"But Peach is a sitting duck when she up-B. She is a goner"

Bad things always have an upside to it.

Done right. You can recover to the stage without ever having to up-B. I don't ever burn my jump unless I have too. Even when it looks like I should, I don't and I can make it back. Also when Peach gets the chance, she should ALWAYS recover High. F-B and toad help with this. Oh and guess what. From this you still have 2 recovery options left. Second Jump and up-B.

Also with her Up-B you can open and close it really quick and do quick momentum changes. Do that trick Excel spoke about with the C-stick. Also U can use toad to air stall to slightly increase evasion and land safe to the ground.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes I copied and pasted this stuff. cause it is alot easier when i went on about it already.

As for Pit, everyone wants to go on about his camping and mostly just do it since that is his meta game no? Take that away from him and what does he have that is so good about him? You can answer that for me. But from my point of view, take that way and he really has lil left Peach can be played both aggressive, defensive, On the air, and ground. So if one thing gets cut off, we have options. And all 4 things are good. She also Puts the pressure on characters better than Both of these characters with auto canceled air attacks to Jabs, which I might at, does not have to lead to another jab, can lead to spaced fair to bait side steps or roll. Can lead to grabs. W/e to another Fair or Nair or jab then do w/e you want once again. We have options to ether bait of pressure you. And more option can be linked when you have a turnip in your hand. Also the fact that she can use her air attacks while holding a turnip (Via floating) And bring her air pressure game to the ground (Via ground floating). And to top it all it can all be added with good spacing to put that good pressure and hard to get away from or punish. We have options my friend.

Her spacing has more speed then DK and Pit. So I can space, create a while then go in and follow it up quick and thus start the combos or the pressure game I stated before.

Some of the stuff I said on DK I can say on pit as well. But to just make the list when going on about Pit

- Has More range in attacks.
- Has more/many ways ways to approach someone
- Racks up damage quick.
- Good solid options out the shield.

Now that I think about it, with the pressure and all the spacing, floating and all that I explain, I'll now say that Peach is better up close that Pit is as well.

I never said that they couldn't use Fair to jab, what I mean by metagame is that is what 90% of peach mains do. They have better options but all that is seen in the current climate is Peach mains abusing Fair and until they stop that that is what the SBR will judge it off. I agree with you that they need to stop using this but for some reason Peach mains still abuse Fair leading to her metagame being in a state where one of her better kill moves is always decayed. I play Zamus, I know this feeling with her side-b, there are other options but overall it tends to be decayed and as such I never consider it as a kill move.

And I am here telling people, even the SBR, that Peach does not need to be swinging that move. People play the character for the reason being stale, when it is not. 90% percent of them use that move and it is stale. Who says they have too. Can can do other things and space in many way I have explained before in this thread already. This is all that people see right? I am stating that Peach players do not have to be doing this, they are not thinking of something else that can be done instead of just swinging that move so much. Again, this is why I share my thoughts as to what she can REALLY do and people can get a better understanding of this character.

Thats fine but still you are yet to make that vital comparison.

Now I did, But you already saw that eh? ha ha.

OK, DK has better spacing options, Peach can be more mobile all she wants but DK can and will shut down more approaches and be able to outrange (IE SPACE) with his attacks. His Bair is ridiculous in the air, seriously don't mess with it, and Uair is also good (not really spacing tho), I'm not sure exactly but I"m fairly certain that DK's Bair has a longer reach than peaches aerial spacers.
On the ground DK has a better grab range (can punish attacks that are blocked far easier), has his Down-b to COMPLETELY SHUTDOWN people on the ground, the disjoint and range on that has ridiculous potential if used correctly. He has larger range on his Ftilt, meaning he doesn't have to move more often meaning his opponents need to work harder to get within striking distance, and his Dtilt is godly. Also his Neutral - B has super armour and kills, like "Suprise your attack was ineffective get *****".
Now prove Peach spaces better.

DK Bair does have more range that any of Peach's air attacks. He pretty much has more range that me.

I already stated above how her spacing is vs DK. From what you said here, his spacing has range and hard to punish First about hitting people with histilts in distance. You may not have to move more than often to land a hit.You forget, nether do I. I have a projectile. I don't have to be as close to the enemy as you do to land damage on them.

Now what do you get from Peach spacing?

- Pressure.
- Evasion Her spacing can lead to solid get aways for you can't touch me and I get away from you and get my space if I need too. Now evasion and pressure is linked.
- Speed. As I said before, her spacing is not slow like DK's My moves hve lil Cool down time. I can dish out more Bairs than DK can with his. I can dish out more nairs than he can with his or his bair. Now this is also link with the other 2 things you get from above. DK can space but it is slow. And not that hard to get in and get at him to stop.
- Range While you have more range than Peach, lets not forget that Peach has good range. And her Fair is also disjointed. Another chain to link.

Now from what you just told me sir, DK does not top all of this here. Unless you can kindly add more about his spacing?

Woops I meant Pit gets shutdown by GnW I didn't word it right.
But yes GnW and MK shutdown peach fairly well, tourny viability is overall the same here.

I told you about meta already. As for G&W on Peach, this character is just bleh. He is really not much of a threat to Peach anymore to me. All he has to me is kills and lives longer. All his typical crap I can DI out of. I can't play Him aggressive. That is asking for it. So I have to be defensive. And you be surprised how less stressful this match up is. I have fun playing this character. nothing for me to be in fear of in this match up. Played right, G&W is not so calling shutting down Peach as much as people think he does today. This character does not fase me at all.

There's only one really needed, MK is her hardest matchup (correct?) and guess what, everyone and their mum mains him. Face it the most common MU in the tourny scene is her hardest. Yes DK/D3 is dumb, he is completely viable with a decent 2nd but that isn't the argument here.

it would be obviously that people would play the best character in the game, they want money, they wanna win, and will mostly likey use the best option to solve all their problems. so of course people will run to meta. And because of that, I will not let that stop me and think "aww ****, meta, damm it's all over I can't win, let me ether drop my controller or change character" No I don't do that and don't think like that.

But let me tell you a lil something. I have played M2K's meta and nearly beat it twice out of 4 games. I played teh spammer in pools at a tournament and nearly beat him in a pools match. I played judge in pools and nearly beat his meta there.

"oh but that is not good enough, you did not win" Ok, but because of that, does that mean there was no way in hell I could of won these matches? The match up is not for me and yet I did that could against them that I could have won it. could have gone ether way. But how is that so? cause I study the match up and learn what works and does not work. learned what style to use on meta and what not to use on him. Thus helps me out alot that I could nearly beat these people as Peach against these players and they use meta, a match up not for me. So nope, a **** load of metas are not gonna scare me or make me think other wise. I see him as "another character to beat up, done"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@ SFP (I didnt put the quotes in)

GaW has a better airgame than ZSS.
Fair - Sweetspot can kill around 100-115% and it can hit through and outrange most other aerials and some other moves (if spaced decemtly, it gets past Zards rocksmash, which is good im pretty sure)
Bair - Shield-breaking, approaching, comboing, easy use and can be used quickly and efficiently, and very good for edge-guarding.
Dair - Can get repetitive but is quite good coming in for landing against most characters, and can be slowed down and sped up for mindgames and other tricks.
Uair - Can gimp upwards, set-up kills, send falling characters off-stage to death, and even with out all the wind tricks, its still a decent killing move on second hit and goes through most dairs.
Nair - Combos and good for SH, can be fast-falled to follow air dodgers. Also hits through platforms effectively and can be combo'd into a jab.

GaW UpB ***** Tornado, (and most other things) and if you dont want to try hard Dair can too, but not as much.

His airials are overall better than ZSS as they have more capabilities.
You want to jump high into the air with your super jumps against me in a match?
GaW will beat you there. I know its not a matchup thing, but if ZSS has better airials she should want
GaW in the air if they were fighting a match, and well, she doesn't.

You said MKs air game isnt as good as ZSS's.... thats just silly imo, but ok, GaW is my argument.

You said ZSS kills better than Diddy who is higher than GaW. This means nothing.
You can't say
"GaW may have a better killing-game than ZSS, but ZSS is better than Diddys so it doesnt matter, coz diddy is higher"
Obviously Diddy has something else that makes him higher, hey?

Bucket breaking is great horizontally, Better than anything ZSS, especially with getting gimped so easy.
Upwards, yeah GaW does get killed easily (one of the reasons Snake is a bad match-up) and ZSS is probably better at surviving upwards, but she is one of the top 5-6 lightest characters in the game as well, remember.

GaW is better than ZSS overrall, even if she comes close in some departments.
I'm not going to argue by how much, but imo, he is better.


But i do agree she is pretty good and perhaps should be higher.

I don't even know how to respond to this post. You just listed a bunch of positives about GAW and said "you're wrong." I doubt you even read my post and frankly I don't care if you did. The entire reason I don't feel like arguing about ZSS is because no matter what ZSS mains say or do, no one changes their minds or perceptions. I could sit here tall day talking about how ZSS has very strong match-ups compared to G&W and most of high tier and say that ZSS places better when compared to G&W when weighted by the number of good players for both characters. I can even give you facts like I gave you, such as:

"In the ZSS vs GaW matchup, uair alone beats every single GaW aerial including key. Uair also beats every aerial Wario or MK has. Bair beats most of them. Fair beats a lot of things, but not as much as bair. Bair and Uair both beat your turtle and nair." That's just talking about priority alone, but I bet you don't believe it. I also don't care. Today I combo'd 4 uairs into each other and killed a Game and Watch player off the top of Battlefield at 70%. Can you do that? ZSS has Brawl's best juggling game. ZSS also does want GAW in the air. Get educated.

The fact is the few good ZSS mains that exist in the world consistently place high. Dazwa is #1 in his region (New England). Snakeee does very well for himself, obviously in singles and teams, and is a top player in the country. Zero in Australia places pretty high, but I've never seen him play in singles. Charby and ShadowTactics are tearing up Europe. Nick Riddle destroys Florida. This is not just theory or me guessing, this is ZSS being put to the test in competitive regions and placing well. The difference is that we have like maybe 10 tourney-worthy players and only 5 of them are even playing in competitive regions. Game and Watch players aren't doing nearly as well given their representation (which might not be super high, but is much, much higher than ZSS').

TL;DR: Like Dark Pch, nothing I say is going to convince you that you might be wrong because to you ZSS is mid tier and she's just not as good. So I'm not going to try. I don't care that much about what you or the SBR think (although I'd be lying if I said stupid opinion didn't bother me enough to be here posting about it).

Top hats and monocles, folks.

EDIT: Wow, I realized you just said ZSS gets "gimped easy." You are no longer worth responding to. Seriously watch some **** matches and read some stickies in the ZSS forums. You are completely out of touch. ZSS is one of the top 10 hardest characters to gimp in this game. Get bent IMO.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I know you didn't come here to change her placing, and I have learned a little myself about Peach from reading what you've posted. I'm a little confused by your reply; I can't seem to see what you're getting at here. Are you saying you're disappointed that the SBR didn't give you a proper explanation of why Peach is worse then DK and Pit? I was trying to say that the SBR have a combined knowledge of all the characters equally and do not specialise on one character, although they have a good-enough knowledge of each characters metagame. This allows them to make unbiased decisions on characters. I wasn't using the example against you, I was just stating a point. I could use the same example against me:
My top 2 most played characters are DDD and Falco, and my least played is Peach. I have a poor knowledge of Peach compared to my knowledge of the other two characters. The thing is, in SSBB, extra knowledge of characters is mostly good things about the characters. The only notable exception to this I can think of right now is Wario's grab releases. If we start at a basic level, we can see that someone who knows about DDD's chaingrab will think DDD is a better character then someone who dosen't know about it. The other person, however, might know about the Ice Climbers infinites while the first person does not. The first person will be a lot more biased towards DDD and rate him higher and will think the Ice Climbers are terrible and rate them low. The opposite goes for the second person. See what I mean?
I was trying to say that you had more knowledge of Peach, and so knew she had more advantages then what most people gave her credit for. However, you might not have had the same amount of knowledge about DK or Pit, meaning you might not know their advantages as well. If one had the same amount of knowledge about both characters, it would allow them to make a completely unbiased decision.

Thanks for reading the post and replying, btw



Ahh I think I'm beginning to understand now, you were just pointing out common misconceptions about Peach rather then contrasting the characters

I asked questions to see what these boys know and why DK/Pit belong over Peach. I got weak to no answer to back this up in the SBR. Then many came in and give me the same thing as well.I gave people a chance to explain why in the SBR. Got nothing. So I went on about why Peach>both. And as you can see from my post I am explaining myself.

So it is not like I shut them down, I wanted to hear what they know. Iheard what they had to say on this matter. And what they say does not back up or come close to why those 2 are over Peach. I did what i had to in order to explain my opinion to a point it can be facts.

And glad to hear you learned some stuff about Peach from this that you did not know before, least SOMETHING good is coming out of this at least.

 

[Brinzy]

If ZSS wasn't so god**** hard to use, I would secondary her.

Actually, what's stopping me... I'm gonna learn ZSS.

 

[Splice]

wow wow wow

Dont just label everyone who says "your wrong" as someone who isnt going to listen to you.
I apologise if i came of bluntly, but you said ZSS airials are better than GaWs and listed their capabilities so i listed GaWs.

I do disagree that your Uair and Bair beat GaWs Bair, at the risk of coming off all "top-hats and monocles" but im really trying to talk about the capabilities, not the priority, as such. A week ago I jumped and used Nair and then Uair and it killed a ZSS upwards. This does not automatically give him the best "something-game".

And GaW is not highly represented at all. I dont know if its more or less than ZSS, but seriously, can some more people main him please? And I dont know a lot about the tourney results and yeah, atm ZSS is placing high, so that could be your argument there but i dont know enough about American tourney results so sorry if my knowledge is faulty here, but if we could keep it on the characters themselves that would help

And yeah, 'gimped easy' is just from my GaW vs ZSS experience and GaW is a gimp-king so perhaps its a little biased, but c'mon, she doesn't beat GaW in that department AT ALL.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

wow wow wow

Dont just label everyone who says "your wrong" as someone who isnt going to listen to you.
I apologise if i came of bluntly, but you said ZSS airials are better than GaWs and listed their capabilities so i listed GaWs.

I do disagree that your Uair and Bair beat GaWs, at the risk of coming off all "top-hats and monocles" but im really trying to talk about the capabilities, not the priority, as such. A week ago I jumped and used Nair and then Uair and it killed a ZSS upwards. This does not automatically give him the best "something-game".

And GaW is not highly represented at all. I dont know if its more or less than ZSS, but seriously, can some more people main him please? And I dont know a lot about the tourney results and yeah, atm ZSS is placing high, so that could be your argument there but i dont know enough about American tourney results so sorry if my knowledge is faulty here, but if we could keep it on the characters themselves that would help

And yeah, 'gimped easy' is just from my GaW vs ZSS experience and GaW is a gimp-king so perhaps its a little biased, but c'mon, she doesn't beat GaW in that department AT ALL.

Sorry, but it gets old.

ZSS is not harder to gimp than GAW. She is very hard to gimp though. MK, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, and a few others are probably harder. But her recovery is very strong and versatile.

ZSS' aerials are not shield-breaking weird attacks with unique bizarre properties, they are simple, strong attacks with amazing knockback, no lag and high priority. Every single one kills. Her dair spikes, although it isn't very good. I mean, I can't write a book on them. She lives, breathes, and hopefully dies in the air. Against every opponent, her goal is to get them in the air. That's her game.

 

[Browny]

"Ok Has More range. Ok. Peach has range as well"

Way to take one of DK's strongest traits and just shrug it off likes its nothing. his range advantage (over everyone, especially peach) is insanely good. You cant really make an accurate comparison at all when you ignore such an enormous (pun intended ) factor in characters abilities

 

[Shaya]

When it comes down to it Supermodel;

B tier is a pretty safe tier, hell it's the characters in S and A tier that funnily enough have the 'hard' counters (Falco... Ice Climbers, Game and Watch, I guess Marth, etc etc).

A character is safe because they have a sword.
A FAST sword.
And Lucario's aura is swords, don't argue with me here. :D

They have great qualities, great speed, little weaknesses, answers/options to/for most situations.

ZSS's long range capabilities are slower attacks -> she has a weakness.
Even though ZSS may be able to overcome this with ease, look how long it's taken for her to 'pick up' in terms of being considered a good character!

Fast longish range swords = safe = forever considered a pretty good character = Immediete use with positive results.

 

[mountain_tiger]

If ZSS wasn't so god**** hard to use, I would secondary her.

Actually, what's stopping me... I'm gonna learn ZSS.

I didn't actually find ZSS that hard to learn. The only difficult parts are learning to recover from below and when to use different kill moves. Otherwise, she's not actually too difficult.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

When it comes down to it Supermodel;

B tier is a pretty safe tier, hell it's the characters in S and A tier that funnily enough have the 'hard' counters (Falco... Ice Climbers, Game and Watch, I guess Marth, etc etc).

A character is safe because they have a sword.
A FAST sword.
And Lucario's aura is swords, don't argue with me here. :D

They have great qualities, great speed, little weaknesses, answers/options to/for most situations.

ZSS's long range capabilities are slower attacks -> she has a weakness.
Even though ZSS may be able to overcome this with ease, look how long it's taken for her to 'pick up' in terms of being considered a good character!

Fast longish range swords = safe = forever considered a pretty good character = Immediete use with positive results.

Just so you know, ZSS' aerials and down b kick have disjointed hitboxes (like a sword). Her ground game isn't the best or anywhere near the best, I'll give you that. But it's not bad, either. She makes up for her rather "up close and personal" ground game by having really good mid range spacing tools in paralyzer and side b. 1 frame jab and dash attack locks at mid percents (that are like chain grabs) don't hurt either.

Her grab sucks, 100%. That's my only complaint on the ground.

I also agree that her metagame is very young. For the first year, we thought her only good moves were side b and paralyzer shot. It took forever for her to pick up, but if you read the ZSS forums, you'll see that her game has really evolved since then.

My problem is that when people talk about the character, they talk about her like it's the first month or two after the game's release. The GAW forums still say something like "her only good move is side b and she's easily gimped." People still say this to me when I argue she's a good character. It's so hard to beat walls of ignorance that tall. You just get tired of it.

 

[Brinzy]

Going off of what Shaya said, Zelda should've had lucario style aerials... actually, I still want the bair, but yeah, if she had the type of priority on her fair and dair, like how she does on her Usmash, she'd be far better off.

/Zelda talk

But yeah, when you really look at how the characters turn out, the ones with the best priority tend to be higher up than those below (of course, the exceptions being characters with far better strengths or far more crippling weaknesses).