The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Zankoku]

At some point that I just doesn't know.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The tiers are much closer than people probably think anyway.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'll admit, EL didn't really give much but he at least gave broad reasons why. If you disagree with those general broad ideas explain why?

I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong. I'm not even trying to bash you or anything. All I'm saying is it'll probably work out better if you want to have that discussion?

I copy and pasted my answers for explaining why like 100 times. If people don't wanna read or look back it is thier fault. people asking the same questions that I already answered too many times. I'm getting tired of it. I should not have to cause I made it crystal clear.

When did I ever express an opinion on whether you were right or wrong?

When did I ever say you expressed your opinion on that to begin with? See how that works?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

While I don't necessarily think that your claims are completely without merit, Dark--

That's exactly what I'm saying. It wouldn't be difficult to confuse him for a troll.

 

[Zankoku]

When did I ever say you expressed your opinion on that to begin with? See how that works?

Probably the part where you quoted him and in the same post said this.

The Hell is that, and I am in the wrong? Don't give me that.

 

[Ant1]

As the old saying goes 'Let the baby have his bottle'. Shaya u should listen to that quote and just let him believe what he wants to. In the end who cares? DK is above peach and he can keep telling himself that he shoudn't be, but still doesn't change the fact that he is.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Probably the part where you quoted him and in the same post said this.

I don't think so.

And way to play follow the leader. Monkey see monkey do is what we are playing today?

You jokers can laugh it up and play games all you want. it's like talking to baboons here. it's amazing how some even got into the SBR. The heck is this mess?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As the old saying goes 'Let the baby have his bottle'. Shaya u should listen to that quote and just let him believe what he wants to. In the end who cares? DK is above peach and he can keep telling himself that he shoudn't be, but still doesn't change the fact that he is.

You know what also doesn't change the fact that DK is above Peach? Not going to tournaments.

 

[Red Arremer]

You know what also doesn't change the fact that DK is above Peach? Not going to tournaments.

Oh Reflex. <3

 

[Dark.Pch]

You know what also doesn't change the fact that DK is above Peach? Not going to tournaments.

Just what the hell you trying to get at? If you got something to say than say it and stop trying to sound cool and funny.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Just what the hell you trying to get at? If you got something to say than say it and stop trying to sound cool and funny.

That it's better for Peach if you go to tournaments.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That it's better for Peach if you go to tournaments.

Is that so? Lil oh me back in the tournament world. What about all The Peach players people talk about and say oh so many times that they are better than me.

Why not go to this with Kos-Mos, Edreese, Sky, Praxis. They talked about so much and all. Why ask for a nobody who CLEARY does not know what he is talking about to go back in the tournament Gig and do it?

And Terios that post was not directed to you*wink*

 

[Shaya]

And still not out place the random Donkey Kong who got knocked out twice by two dededes.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That it's better for Peach if you go to tournaments.

At least, if she's as good as Dark.Pch seems to think. Although (for SOME reason), I'd imagine his showing to a tournament would actually make my point for me.

 

[Nixernator]

@Dark.Pch: Please read this

Holy crap, seriously. I've been sitting there on the sidelines in this, but I felt it needs this contribution.
First off, you can claim to have the greatest knowledge of peach going around, fine you probably do. But do you have the greatest knowledge of Pit and DK? You don't? Ohhh then how can you compare there abilities, you know far more tricks with Peach than with those 2 chars, therefore you know peach as a better characters, the fact of the matter is that Pit and DK mains have there own little tricks too, that make their char better. The SBR might not know Peach as good as you do but they know Peach/Pit/DK at a competent enough level to know their tricks, so therefore can make a comparison of the two more effectively.
Dark.Pch, dude seriously all you've stated pretty much is blah blah blah Peach has a killing problem, but she has the tools to get around it, therefore she is better than Pit and DK. Well guess what the fact of the matter is that these two chars don't have as great a killing problem as peach which (assuming all other traits are the same), puts them over Peach from a base level.
You then proceed to say that Peach's fair is decayed because of players who play her, well in the current metagame fact is that Fair is most Peach main's spacing move, which means that in the current metagame it tends to be decayed. You can say that they have all other options all you want but the fact is that in the current metagame it overall is. The next point is that the tier list is based on the current metagame, making the connection it is assumed that Fair is her main spacing tool on the tier list, and that it will be decayed.
Next point is peach's up close game, admittedly this is better than probably DK's but IMO is around Pits (maybe a shade better). Thats great, but you can't just look at the close range game, DK absolutely kills Peach in mid range department with his far reaching relatively unpunishable tilts, and Pit has a greater long range game (arrows combined with his shield effectively means that he has weaker camping skills but can counter other chars camping far more effectively).
So far we've gotten Peach better close range, DK better Mid and Pit better Long, wow they all even out, putting us back to comparing other facets of their respective games.
You mention Peach's spacing, don't try and say that Peach has better spacing options than DK that is blatantly untrue, on the topic of Pit I'm not sure, but I think Peach my have the edge.
And on the topic of Viability, we have DK being made unviable from D3, a common matchup, then we have peach being shutdown by MK, and Pit GnW? Not sure on that, where I'm from Pit is a very viable character.
Guess what Peach gets countered by a far more common match then either of them, so don't pull that card (this depends on whether D3's infinite is banned, if its not DK is viable as long as you're opponent didn't lose the last match, picking D3 is pretty much auto win in response to DK).

Overall my point is that you can't just look at Peach's good facets, you need to compare every part of a characters game when talking about tier placement, something you are not currently doing. What you are doing is conceding one of her weaknesses then saying "But she has good parts as well". You are not discussing all facets and when you do and prove that overall peach is better then you will get more mature responses.

Edit: Wow that was way longer than expected

 

[Dark.Pch]

I left tournies for a reason that only lil know about. A serious ( so I and a few say) problem. And staying out of them helps with this problem. And no, the problem has nothing to do with me, my skills or this game to begin with. I would post it but seeing as people wanna post to find funny and be one with the crowd. I have no need to explain myself here and give more people to act like clowns.

But you seem to Know Me and Peach so well, right reflex?

Do since you do, care to play a lil game. ether way I will come out the winner wether you expect this or not and my point will stand. You up for it, and if so, I'll ask my question and we can get this started.

So what do you say?

 

[Nixernator]

Why do I always manage to get last post on a page. Thats frustrating, my wall is on the last page at the bottom. Read it Dark.Pch you need to

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But you seem to Know Me and Peach so well, right reflex?

Do since you do, care to play a lil game. ether way I will come out the winner wether you expect this or not and my point will stand. You up for it, and if so, I'll ask my question and we can get this started.

So what do you say?

I don't know you outside of being terrible at conversation and having zero tact, and I know Peach from a relatively-limited first-hand use, my older brother's decent Peach, and fighting KOS-MOS in Doubles at LasT Smash 3. That's good enough for me to make a general assumption, though, because I understand the game in general pretty well.

I don't care for your question. Save it for someone who cares.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I don't know you outside of being terrible at tact and conversation, and I know Peach from a relatively-limited first-hand use, my older brother's decent Peach, and fighting KOS-MOS in Doubles at LasT Smash 3. That's good enough for me to make a general assumption, though, because I understand the game in general pretty well.

I don't care for your question. Save it for someone who cares.

So you gonna base your thoughts and brains on Peach over your older brother is DECENT with her and fougt Kos-Mos in teams. So that gives you the right to say I don't know what I am talking about and you do? And lets not forget the fact that you have RELATIVELY-LIMITED FIRST HAND USE?

Did I get that right, if so I can see why you don't care and why you said all that stuff before and give not even give me good reason on why DK and pit are better. This is making sense now. This must be how all are i assume. Thanks for letting me know this. Also from my post I got what I wanted from you. You really don't get it at all do you?

 

[Red Arremer]

How about you stop behaving like you're 11 years old and don't act like you are the best player in the world and know everything, that everyone else is an idiot?

Reflex admitted he doesn't know much about Peach. Now you say "I assume everyone else knows **** about Peach". Cool. Really mature.

 

[Nixernator]

@Dark.Pch: Please read this

Holy crap, seriously. I've been sitting there on the sidelines in this, but I felt it needs this contribution.
First off, you can claim to have the greatest knowledge of peach going around, fine you probably do. But do you have the greatest knowledge of Pit and DK? You don't? Ohhh then how can you compare there abilities, you know far more tricks with Peach than with those 2 chars, therefore you know peach as a better characters, the fact of the matter is that Pit and DK mains have there own little tricks too, that make their char better. The SBR might not know Peach as good as you do but they know Peach/Pit/DK at a competent enough level to know their tricks, so therefore can make a comparison of the two more effectively.
Dark.Pch, dude seriously all you've stated pretty much is blah blah blah Peach has a killing problem, but she has the tools to get around it, therefore she is better than Pit and DK. Well guess what the fact of the matter is that these two chars don't have as great a killing problem as peach which (assuming all other traits are the same), puts them over Peach from a base level.
You then proceed to say that Peach's fair is decayed because of players who play her, well in the current metagame fact is that Fair is most Peach main's spacing move, which means that in the current metagame it tends to be decayed. You can say that they have all other options all you want but the fact is that in the current metagame it overall is. The next point is that the tier list is based on the current metagame, making the connection it is assumed that Fair is her main spacing tool on the tier list, and that it will be decayed.
Next point is peach's up close game, admittedly this is better than probably DK's but IMO is around Pits (maybe a shade better). Thats great, but you can't just look at the close range game, DK absolutely kills Peach in mid range department with his far reaching relatively unpunishable tilts, and Pit has a greater long range game (arrows combined with his shield effectively means that he has weaker camping skills but can counter other chars camping far more effectively).
So far we've gotten Peach better close range, DK better Mid and Pit better Long, wow they all even out, putting us back to comparing other facets of their respective games.
You mention Peach's spacing, don't try and say that Peach has better spacing options than DK that is blatantly untrue, on the topic of Pit I'm not sure, but I think Peach my have the edge.
And on the topic of Viability, we have DK being made unviable from D3, a common matchup, then we have peach being shutdown by MK, and Pit GnW? Not sure on that, where I'm from Pit is a very viable character.
Guess what Peach gets countered by a far more common match then either of them, so don't pull that card (this depends on whether D3's infinite is banned, if its not DK is viable as long as you're opponent didn't lose the last match, picking D3 is pretty much auto win in response to DK).

Overall my point is that you can't just look at Peach's good facets, you need to compare every part of a characters game when talking about tier placement, something you are not currently doing. What you are doing is conceding one of her weaknesses then saying "But she has good parts as well". You are not discussing all facets and when you do and prove that overall peach is better then you will get more mature responses.

Edit: Wow that was way longer than expected

I'm just gonna copy this here because Dark.Pch either didn't a) Read it choosing to flame Reflex
or b) Doesn't have an argument against it. I hope its a) Pch.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So you gonna base your thoughts and brains on Peach over your order brother is DECENT with her and fougt Kos-Mos in teams. So that gives you the right to say I don't know what I am talking about and you do? And lets not forget the fact that you have RELATIVELY-LIMITED FIRST HAND USE?

I'm saying that anything you believe about Peach is completely unimportant and will not see serious scrutiny in the Brawl-playing world unless you actually prove that anything you say has merit. If I say "Peach's only good approach move is the Forward-B" and every single Peach player in the world disagrees, but I have a better tournament record with Peach than them, than what can you do but agree?

I understand the game on a general level better than most people ever will. This helps me get a sizable, solid, fairly-comprehensive idea of what a character is capable of. There will always be holes, but I know Peach well enough to say I have an accurate idea of her potential.

 

[mountain_tiger]

All of this red text from Dark Pch is making my eyes hurt. (Not the posts themselves, just the fact that it's massive blocks of red.)

On topic, can we talk about the tier list in a way other than comparing Peach, Donkey Kong and Pit? It's been going on for pages and pages, and frankly I think most of us (including Dark Pch probably) are getting a bit fed up of it.

 

[Splice]

So you gonna base your thoughts and brains on Peach over your older brother is DECENT with her and fougt Kos-Mos in teams. So that gives you the right to say I don't know what I am talking about and you do? And lets not forget the fact that you have RELATIVELY-LIMITED FIRST HAND USE?

Umm and what would you be basing you thoughts of DK and Pit on?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Let's talk about ZSS again. That was fun.

Snakeee got 1st (split with Anti) in a tourney with 50+ people yesterday beating out players like ADHD, NinjaLink, Dabuz, Malcolm, etc. Anti had to leave.

He ran scared IMO. ZSS for high tier.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Vids or it didn't happen. And don't go pulling none of your RESULTS threads.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Vids or it didn't happen. And don't go pulling none of your RESULTS threads.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237587

Vids are probably going up later today, he says.

 

[Shaya]

Umm and what would you be basing you thoughts of DK and Pit on?

He would be basing them on the fact you just doesn't know about how good Peach's up close game is for zoning, spacing, and winning tournaments.

A Spadefox put it, quite well, mind you:

"Peach >>>>>>>>>> Meta Knight"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He would be basing them on the fact you just doesn't know about how good Peach's up close game is for zoning, spacing, and winning tournaments.

A Spadefox put it, quite well, mind you:

"Peach >>>>>>>>>> Meta Knight"

Don't be that way. Dark Peach may not be arguing his point very well, and after thinking on it, I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but when you really believe something very strongly and everyone just replies with "ur wrong lol" over and over again it's very frustrating, especially when the points they make are, to you, factually incorrect.

Seriously, it doesn't make you look any better to make fun of the guy. Cut it out.

 

[Ant1]

Yeah man a perfectly played peach is better than a perfectly played MK.
That's the laugh of the century.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

**** not bad. Snakeee should have refused to split. It would have been funny. XD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

**** not bad. Snakeee should have refused to split. It would have been funny. XD

He told me he wanted to play it out, but Anti couldn't stay. It isn't like they could make him, I guess.

 

[Dark.Pch]

How about you stop behaving like you're 11 years old and don't act like you are the best player in the world and know everything, that everyone else is an idiot?

Reflex admitted he doesn't know much about Peach. Now you say "I assume everyone else knows **** about Peach". Cool. Really mature.

Me stop acting like I am 11? I find it funny you were not saying this to the people who were acting like it when I was calm, carefree, and chill with my post and they are the ones acting like idiots with post trying to be funny and be one with the crowd. Yet when i decided to show the same respect back, I am the bad one? Is that what you are telling me?

If so, unreal.................

I told you I am tired of being nice when i don't get the respect back, so screw it.

I'm just gonna copy this here because Dark.Pch either didn't a) Read it choosing to flame Reflex
or b) Doesn't have an argument against it. I hope its a) Pch.

Let me deal with this first, i saw it.

I'm saying that anything you believe about Peach is completely unimportant and will not see serious scrutiny in the Brawl-playing world unless you actually prove that anything you say has merit. If I say "Peach's only good approach move is the Forward-B" and every single Peach player in the world disagrees, but I have a better tournament record with Peach than them, than what can you do but agree?

I understand the game on a general level better than most people ever will. This helps me get a sizable, solid, fairly-comprehensive idea of what a character is capable of. There will always be holes, but I know Peach well enough to say I have an accurate idea of her potential.

Thats Kinda Like a bowser player beats every Peach there is all the time. Does Bowser have the favor in the match up? A ganon player Beats M2K all the time MM's and all. Does Ganon have the upper hand in the meta match up? See how that works? I just did excatly what you did. So for your example. I don't have to agree about her F-B if you was to **** in tournaments. I could beat M2K in ever tournament match I play him in. Does that meam Peach>meta in that match up. I would still say meta has the advantage over peach reguardless If i beat M2K and he can't scratch a set off me.

Also, knowing the game and knowing the character are 2 different things.

"I know how to read a Book" But do I know how to read the language in it"

"I know how to drive. But can I handle a truck as well as a car. Do I make the same exact timing on crubs with a car as I do with a Truck"

I know my way aroundNew York City. Do I know how to get to my moms house by train even thought I never took it before? Same with the bus?"

I know how a weak spot in someonees strat in chess. But do I know how to get him for it and what are the best moves for it and I just stared learning the basics of chesse? What Move would be best to end him right here I can get an easy stale mate right now. But I just don't know where to move my pawns and rooks to trap him and win the match, or set him up and win next turn"

Just knowing about the game is not enough. In side a game there are other things to know about. Like I'll do brawl

" I know all the rules and counterpicks for stages in brawl, and all the techs of the game all characters cah use or just in general, like edgehogging when one tries to grab it, mindgames, etc" Yet I never touched *insert random character here* before. I don't know thier advance techs, the match up I am in, strenghts, the whole nine."

See how that works out? You can't just say understanding the game itself is all you need to know OR plays a big part in something like me and you with Peach,DK and PIT, That's not something you can just through freely and expect people to just say "oh ye knows this game too well, ok lets give it to him, thats alll I need to know." Don't work that way.

 

[Ant1]

"I know how to read a Book" But do I know how to read the language in it"

"I know how to drive. But can I handle a truck as well as a car. Do I make the same exact timing on crubs with a car as I do with a Truck"

I know my way aroundNew York City. Do I know how to get to my moms house by train even thought I never took it before? Same with the bus?"

I know how a weak spot in someonees strat in chess. But do I know how to get him for it and what are the best moves for it and I just stared learning the basics of chesse? What Move would be best to end him right here I can get an easy stale mate right now. But I just don't know where to move my pawns and rooks to trap him and win the match, or set him up and win next turn"

Did u really need 4 comparisons, seriously..

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Going no where, let it go. Seriously. =/

The bottom line is Peach's strengths on paper needs to be proven. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a character being in that state in the game. There have been a lot of characters in fighting game history who have had players who do it. There are also a lot of Peach players out there who are very talented and if you go to tourneys and place, proving what you say about match-ups and techniques and killing potential, she will move up. If you believe it that strongly, it should be no problem.

That's all there is to it. Dark Pch, people are just egging you on now, they're not even listening, and really you've said everything that could be said anyway.

What I will say is that there are a lot of high and top tier characters who have their current tier list positions because of "theory" and not much else. The fact is mid tier characters are exempt from that. Mid tier characters have to prove they're tourney viable before theory will move them up.

 

[Shaya]

Don't be that way. Dark Peach may not be arguing his point very well, and after thinking on it, I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but when you really believe something very strongly and everyone just replies with "ur wrong lol" over and over again it's very frustrating, especially when the points they make are, to you, factually incorrect.

Seriously, it doesn't make you look any better to make fun of the guy. Cut it out.

Um... I don't think you realise that just about every argument someone has made to Dark Pch has been returned with something like "I don't care", akin to "It doesn't matter" or "No no no! You can't presume that because you dont know Peach as well as I do".

It has gotten to the point that his credibility as a debater is mute; there can never be a mutual agreement. Maybe I would say I know DK in this current metagame is better than Peach (which he is), and I'm pretty sure of this; however Dark Pch instead of addressing the "DK has these great qualities that make him a great character, what does Peach have?" replies with "doesn't matter Peach has this", continuining on, I also said DK has such similar and arguably better abilities, but it's all ignored because I "don't even know enough about Peach".

How can you, or anyone, especially dark pch, be upset they're not being taken seriously WHEN they come across as a TROLL or someone who just doesn't have the knack of debating, to the point I could compare the situation to attempting to argue with a brick wall that has the phrase "you just doesn't know ENOUGH about PEACH" painted on it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Thats Kinda Like a bowser player beats every Peach there is all the time. Does Bowser have the favor in the match up? A ganon player Beats M2K all the time MM's and all. Does Ganon have the upper hand in the meta match up? See how that works? I just did excatly what you did. So for your example. I don't have to agree about her F-B if you was to **** in tournaments. I could beat M2K in ever tournament match I play him in. Does that meam Peach>meta in that match up. I would still say meta has the advantage over peach reguardless If i beat M2K and he can't scratch a set off me.

That's exactly how it works, actually. If the best Ganondorf or Peach was consistently beating M2K's Meta Knight, then it's safe to say that the character has a fair advantage, because all anyone decent cares about is how the character is played at the highest level. If the highest level is "a Ganondorf player who can read minds", then it matters if the best Ganon player was someone who could read minds. No one cares about the matchup on a mid-level of skill.

Also, knowing the game and knowing the character are 2 different things.

"I know how to read a Book" But do I know how to read the language in it"

I know how a weak spot in someonees strat in chess. But do I know how to get him for it and what are the best moves for it and I just stared learning the basics of chesse? What Move would be best to end him right here I can get an easy stale mate right now. But I just don't know where to move my pawns and rooks to trap him and win the match, or set him up and win next turn"

Just knowing about the game is not enough. In side a game there are other things to know about. Like I'll do brawl

" I know all the rules and counterpicks for stages in brawl, and all the techs of the game all characters cah use or just in general, like edgehogging when one tries to grab it, mindgames, etc" Yet I never touched *insert random character here* before. I don't know thier advance techs, the match up I am in, strenghts, the whole nine."

But if you know the game on a general level well enough, it outshines specific knowledge almost all the time. The very best players of any given competitive game are never the people with, say, unparalleled technical skill.

Raul Capablanca didn't waste time looking up and studying specific strategies in Chess. He was just really, really smart on a general level, and he was a pretty big deal.

And, I've touched every single character to a point where I feel I have a respectable amount of knowledge for all of them. You don't seem to understand that.

 

[SuSa]

"I know how to read a Book" But do I know how to read the language in it"

If you know how to read the book, you should be able to read the language it is written in. Otherwise you cannot read the book.

Fail example.

"I know how to drive. But can I handle a truck as well as a car. Do I make the same exact timing on crubs with a car as I do with a Truck"

You know how to drive. So yes, you should be able to. If you knew how to drive a car, then your example would make sense.

Another fail example.

I know my way aroundNew York City. Do I know how to get to my moms house by train even thought I never took it before? Same with the bus?"

You know your way around the city - therefore it is assumed you know the streets. Subway and Bus transportation is generally done by stops and street names (at least in CA it is) so you should be able to find your way anywhere.

3rd failed example.

I know how a weak spot in someonees strat in chess. But do I know how to get him for it and what are the best moves for it and I just stared learning the basics of chesse? What Move would be best to end him right here I can get an easy stale mate right now. But I just don't know where to move my pawns and rooks to trap him and win the match, or set him up and win next turn"

This example doesn't even make sense. You are learning the basics of chesse and you know how a weak spot?

4th failed example.

Just knowing about the game is not enough. In side a game there are other things to know about. Like I'll do brawl

If you know the game, you know the game?

I don't see what you are getting at.

" I know all the rules and counterpicks for stages in brawl, and all the techs of the game all characters cah use or just in general, like edgehogging when one tries to grab it, mindgames, etc" Yet I never touched *insert random character here* before. I don't know thier advance techs, the match up I am in, strenghts, the whole nine."

Ok, so you have someone who knows the game as a global part - but not down to the character. You just included yourself in this regard. Do you know Sonic? Do you know all of his advanced techs? Do you know his matchups? His strengths?

****, I don't even know what you were trying to prove with this.

See how that works out? You can't just say understanding the game itself is all you need to know OR plays a big part in something like me and you with Peach,DK and PIT, That's not something you can just through freely and expect people to just say "oh ye knows this game too well, ok lets give it to him, thats alll I need to know." Don't work that way.

"I main Peach but I'll be telling you about DK and Pit today." Ohwait........you just owned yourself in this regard.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Um... I don't think you realise that just about every argument someone has made to Dark Pch has been returned with something like "I don't care", akin to "It doesn't matter" or "No no no! You can't presume that because you dont know Peach as well as I do".

It has gotten to the point that his credibility as a debater is mute; there can never be a mutual agreement. Maybe I would say I know DK in this current metagame is better than Peach (which he is), and I'm pretty sure of this; however Dark Pch instead of addressing the "DK has these great qualities that make him a great character, what does Peach have?" replies with "doesn't matter Peach has this", continuining on, I also said DK has such similar and arguably better abilities, but it's all ignored because I "don't even know enough about Peach".

How can you, or anyone, especially dark pch, be upset they're not being taken seriously WHEN they come across as a TROLL or someone who just doesn't have the knack of debating, to the point I could compare them the situation to attempting to argue with a brick wall that has the phrase "you just doesn't know ENOUGH about PEACH" painted on it.

It isn't that I don't agree with you, it's that if someone isn't debating well and you feel it's going no where, why would you continue to egg them on about it? They obviously either don't get debate, don't get your point, or both. They are beyond trying to argue with. So why reply to them for 50 pages? It's pointless, especially in this case because Dark Pch really believes Peach is higher than she is (which she might be, or might not be).

It's even a reasonable position to have, because based on mostly theory and convenient match-ups, Wario is now seen by the SBR as being the third best character in the game. Pikachu is seen as the 9th based on one player. Marth is seen as 7th despite having terrible matchups in the top tier and being virtually unviable in a national setting.

Theory and on-paper garbage do a lot for high and top tier players but they do nothing for characters like ZSS (who is actually winning tourneys, btw), Peach, Toon Link (who places high), and a few others. Sometimes, it is frustrating. You ask, "What do we have to do to prove that X is a good character if winning isn't doing it?" What does a character like ROB have that ZSS doesn't, for instance (and I'm only using ZSS because I know her, I don't really want to argue about her)? Tourney results? No, when our like 3 players go to tournaments they place well. Match-ups? No, not really. Recovery? Kind of, but not really either. Air game? Ground game?

The answer is that these characters are often given the benefit of the doubt because they were good six months ago and this lingers in peoples' heads, when in reality, ROB's not very good. Sorry.

The problem is that Peach isn't actually winning and doesn't even appear good on paper.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It isn't that I don't agree with you, it's that if someone isn't debating well and you feel it's going no where, why would you continue to egg them on about it? They obviously either don't get debate, don't get your point, or both. They are beyond trying to argue with. So why reply to them for 50 pages? It's pointless, especially in this case because Dark Pch really believes Peach is higher than she is (which she might be, or might not be).

It's even a reasonable position to have, because based on mostly theory and convenient match-ups, Wario is now seen by the SBR as being the third best character in the game. Pikachu is seen as the 9th based on one player. Marth is seen as 7th despite having terrible matchups in the top tier and being virtually unviable in a national setting.

Theory and on-paper garbage do a lot for high and top tier players but they do nothing for characters like ZSS (who is actually winning tourneys, btw), Peach, Toon Link (who places high), and a few others. Sometimes, it is frustrating. You ask, "What do we have to do to prove that X is a good character if winning isn't doing it?" What does a character like ROB have that ZSS doesn't, for instance (and I'm only using ZSS because I know her, I don't really want to argue about her)? Tourney results? No, when our like 3 players go to tournaments they place well. Match-ups? No, not really. Recovery? Kind of, but not really either. Air game? Ground game?

The answer is that these characters are often given the benefit of the doubt because they were good six months ago and this lingers in peoples' heads, when in reality, ROB's not very good. Sorry.

The problem is that Peach isn't actually winning and doesn't even appear good on paper.

Most of the the characters in the top spots have proven themselves to be more than just theorycrafting. The ones that haven't are the ones I've complained about (read: G&W).