The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Red Arremer]

Wow... I was going to say that I enjoyed this respectful debate but then you throw that at me. Allllrrriiiiighty then.

Sorry, I always lacked patience if someone keeps spitting out stuff that just isn't true.

I will say that I find your statements towards my view of assuming Marth's opponent "doesn't know ****" is very hypocritical...

I think you are just mirroring your own thoughts back on me, it's quite obvious.

Nope. But saying "omg, his kill moves are sooooo easy to land" shows that you don't seem to know Marth well - or overestimate his abilities to land a KO. Of course, if you successfully are able to KO with Marth, then cool, but all of these moves are punishable or situational, so whenever you play Marth you will have to be incredibly patient because your enemy will be able to outplay you.

You seem to think that all Marths are terrible and cannot get kills because they are impatient and will spam Fsmash, and that everyone who plays against Marth will easily out maneuver spammed Fsmashes because that his his only viable kill move.

The FSmash line was half-jokingly. He has no really reliable KO move that's easy to land or not incredibly punishable if wiffed is the only thing I wanted to really say. Especially if he's fighting a heavyweight with good aerial momentum cancel, he'll have problems.

I never said Marth will spam FSmashes, I just said that with proper spacing and strategy, it's easy to outmaneuver Marth's killing options because you can literally smell if he's going for a KO.

I have already stated and made obvious that Marth's most viable and least punishable kill moves are off the stage, but you seem to be ignoring that.

Well he first has to be in the proper position to gimp. Yes, his gimping is good, but it still doesn't overcome the big disadvantages he has.

Anyway, since you aren't interested in furthering things, I guess we're done.

k bai.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Spade my Marth tippers ALL the time. People fear it, even m2k does.
mmhmm

 

[Red Arremer]

Spade my Marth tippers ALL the time. People fear it, even m2k does.
mmhmm

Hax. My Fox is so sexy people can't play anymore because they're too aroused.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Spade my Marth tippers ALL the time. People fear it, even m2k does.
mmhmm

A Marth that can tipper attacks is scary. It's true.

With that said, Marth is a b-tier character. He's easily edgeguarded (although to be fair, you can mindgame people with side b before using up b), has bad top tier matchups, and it can be hard to land a kill if your opponent plays correctly. But b-tier characters aren't bad characters, they're still viable with some hitch.

...This is all assuming a character's position can change in relation to other characters' positions, which I can imagine it does, given that Wario is 3rd.

 

[Master Raven]

Marth is A tier.

 

[Gindler]

I'd say he's about 7th in line...

 

[M.K]

Sorry, I always lacked patience if someone keeps spitting out stuff that just isn't true.

So what are his killing options? Tipped FSmash. NAir, maybe. Wow, that's really much.

The majority of these kill moves can be punished pretty badly or are rather situational <.<

@Marth:
The thing is, just like with Meta Knight, Marth has no really huge advantage on many characters. And those he has a huge advantage on are not really tournament viable anyway. Additionally to this, he has disadvantageous or even matchups to the majority of High and Top Tier, and even some Mid Tier characters (at least in the upper half).

Marth's only upside is his insane priority and speed, but that won't help him against everything. He has trouble KOing, a mediocre recovery, is light weighted and has a rather lacking defensive game, especially with that weak spot below him.

Yeah, me too.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hax. My Fox is so sexy people can't play anymore because they're too aroused.

LIEZ!
WE ALL KNOW WOLF IS HOTTER!

*nods at this*

Edit: Most characters have issue with those below them. not many have a usable Dair that can be used for such a position.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yeah, me too.

I love you too, Meta-Kirby.

LIEZ!
WE ALL KNOW WOLF IS HOTTER!

*nods at this*

But foxes are fluffier and not as dominant. They tend to like everything, while wolves usually try to take the lead. If you catch my drift. :3

Though eyepatches really are hot, I'll give you that. But Fox's visor is hot too.

 

[Timbers]

Oh right, there is no place. Who do you expect me to trust, huh? I'm not trust you and your little buddy, I really don't care who agrees with you. I want something official, and for now, there IS nothing official, so I have to deal with the next best thing: character match-up threads

make your own opinion instead of just arguing trivial **** into the ground based on what other people tell you? That sounds like a pretty awesome idea WOWOOWowowowowOWOo

I'd say he's about 7th in line...

yes

LIEZ!
WE ALL KNOW WOLF IS HOTTER!

*nods at this*

yes

 

[ShadowLink84]

But foxes are fluffier and not as dominant. They tend to like everything, while wolves usually try to take the lead. If you catch my drift. :3

Hence why Wolves>Foxes.
Being dominant is the best way mmhmm. Giggity

Though eyepatches really are hot, I'll give you that. But Fox's visor is hot too.

His visor reminds me too much of DBZ

 

[Red Arremer]

Hence why Wolves>Foxes.
Being dominant is the best way mmhmm. Giggity

I like both, so I like if I'm able to change. :D

His visor reminds me too much of DBZ

I dunno, I really dig sci-fi-stuff. Haven't really watched DBZ so I can't say much on it. :3

 

[.Marik]

I swear half of the posts in this thread are by Spadefox.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

I swear half of the posts in this thread are by Spadefox.

I don't see the problem with that. :3

 

[.Marik]

Not a bad thing, just a simple observation lol.

 

[Red Arremer]

This thread's a drug! ;-;

But I didn't even make 100 postings in here. lol

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This thread's a drug! ;-;

But I didn't even make 100 postings in here. lol

You made majority.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I like both, so I like if I'm able to change. :D

Agreed

I dunno, I really dig sci-fi-stuff. Haven't really watched DBZ so I can't say much on it. :3

Check it out.

 

[LuVr]

Wow, ok metakirby keep owning ***... I like where you are going and i couldn't agree with you more... people who are saying marth sucks are obviously not getting their facts from the right people.

Marth is a good character, and just because tournament winnings havent been in huge numbers, doesnt take away from his overall finesse. He can be a threat to any character if he is played with patience and good timing. A well practiced marth stands as much of a chance of winning as many of the other better charcaters do. I personally find the discredit of an entire character (including the community of marth mainers whether you meant it or not) to be extremely distatseful and just implicates that the people who are bashing this character have obviously tried and failed to use marth correctly, or have simply gotten beaten by him and are aggravavated... There is NO REASON for that kind of immaturity.. it jeapoardizes the intergrity of your own image, as well as the integrity of these forums... this place is for all smashers of all races, sexes, and types to come together in unity to make the perfect gaming community for the perfect game... so please do all of us sensible players a favor and stop being idiots...

 

[Kamikaze*]

Marth is the most boring character in the game.

He just waves that **** sword around.

Atleast Metaknight can travel in another dimension and ****.

haha, I lol'd.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth's only upside is his insane priority and speed, but that won't help him against everything. He has trouble KOing, a mediocre recovery, is light weighted and has a rather lacking defensive game, especially with that weak spot below him.

No, he's horrible (yes, I'm a cynic), but he's got an amazing defensive game. Except when he's below.

So what are his killing options? Tipped FSmash. NAir, maybe. Wow, that's really much.

Ummm, DOLPHIN SLASH.

You really don't need many killing options to be good, if they're good killing options. Especially with Marth, because dancing blade basically eliminates stale moves as an issue for his killing.


The major problem with Marth is that he can only really kill on punishment, except against tall characters, otherwise he isn't safe.

Uh, okay? ***** I run the character rankings list and I see that Falco's won exactly five tourneys in the past three months. My records tell me Falco's won 5 tournaments while Marth's won 10. Their other placements in the top 8 are comparable. This not only tells me that Falco and Marth aren't that far from each other in results, but also that their tournament wins were not in any major events.

Falco's just not good enough to make it either, sadly...

Amusingly enough, Falco and Marth make a good combination.

Nah, they're not particularly situational besides the Dolphin Slash, but the "punished pretty badly" is the big part of it. I find it rather funny that you listed off fsmash initially, though, seeing as how that's one of the most punishable kill moves that Marth has.

The fact that they're very punishable makes them situational, playing Marth is all about being safe after all.

I'm not saying he has no killing options at all, I'm just saying that with proper spacing and the right tactic, Marth will hardly have the chance to kill you.

Marth has the tools to space VERY WELL, unless you're a character that beats Marth having the right spacing is probably the hardest fight you have in the match-up.




Cynicism aside, Marth is a decent character with an overall good set of Match-ups, and deserves an A-tier ranking, b-tier at worst. He's got an amazing defensive game and an amazing spacing and zoning game. His main problem is too many slight weaknesses in the top, though nothing unwinnable. In a slightly different metagame, he'd be much better (say, without MK).

Now with cynicism: The above paragraph explains why Marth is horrible, he's just not all that good in the current metagame.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

i remember when ganon was bad in melee. . . .

 

[Mr.E]

With regard to having problems killing, I'd have to say at least half of the upper tiers have that "problem." It's kinda like how having low weight is technically a disadvantage, yet the majority of the upper tiers are lightweight characters; obviously it doesn't hurt their game too badly. Diddy is pretty much competing with Samus at the bottom of F-Tier in terms of killing power. :/ Marth is not bad at killing. He's about average, at least among his fellow S/A-tier characters, even a little better if you consider his edgeguarding.

He's not even as easy to edgeguard as most of you let on. He's actually quite difficult to get close against, since he can very well swat most characters away with a superior-ranged FAir first, Dolphin Slash has invincibility frames on start-up, and he can Side-B stall through ledge invincibility unless the opponent reads him perfectly and edgehogs right as he hits Up-B. I suppose Counter is also worth mentioning as an alternative to air dodging, which some characters punish better.

Speaking as a ROB player, so I'm obligated to respond to this previous point, the ROB/Marth match-up is basically even. The big reason why MK is so much better against ROB, ShadowLink84, is because MK is just about the only character that can edgeguard him. MK can deny ROB the ledge, Marth just makes it hard to get off the ledge once ROB is there.

SORRY I WAS HOURS LATE TO THE PARTY

You mean the guy who has the second longest grab range in the game, nearly ungimpable recovery...

He always has the distance to make it back to the stage but his Up-B is extremely punishable, even if ungimpable, and he's forced to use it more than most characters due to his horrendous air speed, fall speed and tiny jumps (despite the fact he has four). i.e. Dedede has a rather mediocre recovery which arguably makes him less survivable than even Wario or ROB, let alone Snake.

At any rate, Dedede obviously isn't terrible but being a gigantic target with zero mobility is a big minus. Perhaps as important, he has more bad match-ups against his fellow upper tiers than he does good ones. He's got an advantage on Wario, even match-up to minimal advantage on Snake / ROB / Marth, and... suffers against every other S- and A-tier character. They aren't even all "minor" disadvantages, Dedede gets wrecked by Falco in particular.

 

[Deathcarter]

Guys, here is irrefuttable proof that tiers don't exist. Watch as Captain Falcon makes the rest of the Brawl Roster his *****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHWfGVt99qU

(Then again, this could be Melee Falcon just destroying the roster for fun.)

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Guys, here is irrefuttable proof that tiers don't exist. Watch as Captain Falcon makes the rest of the Brawl Roster his *****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHWfGVt99qU

(Then again, this could be Melee Falcon just destroying the roster for fun.)

That was WIN.

Even though it has nothing to do with this topic. It was still lol.

 

[etecoon]

Properly spaced, you'll probably have to unshield and do something, giving you at least a -7 on that for frame drop, meaning you now have 11 frames. But that's not the big thing.

it's -18 from shield drop, but as far as the spacing, yeah, maybe I'm spoiled because I play characters like MK and snake, with snake that's just a free 21% unstaled or a KO, I can see how that could be troublesome for someone that doesn't have amazing OOS options like that, but those characters are going to be prone to getting their shield abused by a lot of things anyway, it doesn't mean it's safe on the block in general.

 

[Mr.E]

And what's the frame (dis)advantage on MK's DSmash blocked on the back end?

 

[etecoon]

-20, -13 from shield drop, so a difference of 5 frames

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Guys, here is irrefuttable proof that tiers don't exist. Watch as Captain Falcon makes the rest of the Brawl Roster his *****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHWfGVt99qU

(Then again, this could be Melee Falcon just destroying the roster for fun.)

Haha lol good ****.

Lol at ending with Falco.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I swear half of the posts in this thread are by Spadefox.

Spadefox is just that awesome.

 

[Nestec]

Ok, I love the big guy to death, but wtf is Bowser doing way up in D Tier (almost in C Tier) when he's absolutely dying in the tournament rankings?
Are his match-ups really THAT good?

 

[Jupz]

He dosen't have very many advantages, but hes a solid character. Hes lower-mid tier imo. Barring DDD he dosent have any unwinnable matchups

 

[Collective of Bears]

The thing about Bowser is that he's a character that consists of mainly even-ish matchups. His disadvantages and advantages are both rather small.

 

[Jupz]

His grab releases on most of the cast also help

 

[Matador]

Marth's Dolphin Slash is considered a reliable killer? At what %?

....on what character?....in what game?

 

[Collective of Bears]

Marth's Dolphin Slash is considered a reliable killer? At what %?

....on what character?....in what game?

-50%, on Mewtwo, in Call of Duty 4.

 

[Zankoku]

Given it's the strongest thing from grab release on Meta Knight, I'd say it's the most reliable killer Marth's got in that matchup.

Not too certain about the rest, but its reversal frames make it one of the best out of shield options in the game.

 

[Matador]

-50%, on Mewtwo, in Call of Duty 4.

Mewtwo's banned in COD4 so your point is moot.

Lrn2FPS

 

[Deathcarter]

Ok, I love the big guy to death, but wtf is Bowser doing way up in D Tier (almost in C Tier) when he's absolutely dying in the tournament rankings?
Are his match-ups really THAT good?

His matchups are in no way good. He is destroyed by Ice Climbers and DDD w/ infinite and beaten badly by Diddy Kong. After that he has ONE matchup in the top/high tiers that is not 40:60 in his disadvantage in MK (not saying it is in his advantage, just that is at worst very slight disadvantage for Bowser). And then he is beaten by everybody else until you get down to Fox.

Though, all of that aside, Pokemon Trainer is the only person below him practically guaranteed to pass him in the next tier list if things stay the way they are now.

 

[Inui]

MK - Dsmash = 5 frames of **** and is **** near impossible to punish

It's -25 on a powershield and -18 on block normally. -18. That is very easy to punish. It's not MK's fault that everyone is slow and bad.

Marth does do better against some characters than MK does. Only yoshi comes to mind though

Oh, and snake vs. marth is not by far in snake's favor. Sure at noob levels he is, but higher levels it's pretty even. After seeing chaz (best marth in florida) play that's what I believe anyway

MK beats Yoshi just as badly, if not worse. MK players just don't know what the hell they're doing. I've played PRiDE countless times, and now Yoshi is a joke to me.

Snake owns Marth pretty hard if he just camps with grenades and stays safe. It's so easy. I'm actually thinking of going Snake against Marth players instead of MK because of the extreme lack of work I have to do and amount of hits I can take before dying.


Also, whatever Spadefox said, I second. I haven't read some of it, but I'm just going to assume he's more right than everyone else that posted recently.