The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Gindler]

MK - Dsmash = 5 frames of **** and is **** near impossible to punish. Besides, his gimping game is so good against many characters he won't need to smash them straight off for a kill.
Falco - Chaingrabs to spike is very hard for a lot of characters to recover from.
Diddy - His fair is also a good kill move. His Fsmash is harder to punish than Marths
DDD - Again, his are hard to punish, so even though they are few, it does not make them bad.


Look at Zelda, she has 3 power aerials on top of a powerful spike, all her smashes can kill, as can her Utilt, and her Dtilt sets up for kills nicely. Yet she blows, because she can't use any of them reliably against good characters.

I guess I shoulda bolded spadefoxes. "Wow, that's much." Since that made his argument look like a # of kill moves thing. Of course MKs dsmash is ridiculously sexy awesome. But yeah, if you use that nifty shield (preferably perfect shield) though you can easily punish MKs Dsmash, so it's a little far from impossible.

This.



Marth doesn't totally dominate anyone or have unlosable matchups in his favor-- I agree completely. I don't think Marth has a single bad matchup either, though. Most of his match ups are 50/50 at worst, 60/40 at absolute worst and there are so few of them...


I also disagree with the statement that Marth has bad matchups against all of S tier.

I find Marth to have a very even and possibly even advantagious matchup against DeDeDe and Falco, and depending on the stage he can do very well against Snake.

I keep hearing that MK ***** Marth but I have never seen any real evidence to this-- Marth's matchup against MK seems just as good as DeDeDe's, etc.



The only thing that hurts Marth is that not enough people play him--they end up going to Metaknight instead because everyone says "lawl just play MK" or something thereof. As if there is no downside to MK over Marth, when in actuality, although they are indeed very similar, Marth is very viable and isn't just a "crappier version of Metaknight".

Marth does do better against some characters than MK does. Only yoshi comes to mind though




Oh, and snake vs. marth is not by far in snake's favor. Sure at noob levels he is, but higher levels it's pretty even. After seeing chaz (best marth in florida) play that's what I believe anyway

 

[Master Raven]

MK's Fsmash, Nair and glide attack also kill fairly good enough.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

You find that, I say that Falco has the advantage, Snake has the advantage by far, and Dedede probably has too, I'm not too knowledgeable about this match.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or not, so I'll just assume you are being genuine...

As a DeDeDe / Falco main, a good Marth is one of my most difficult matches in the game for both characters, outside of hard counters such as Ice Climbers.

Where did I say that? I said "majority", not "all". There's a difference.

I should have also typed "most of", my mistake-- my point still stands based on that, though.

I never said he's a "crapper version of Meta Knight", and neither I said he's completely unviable, neither that they are similar.

In fact, I never proposed that Marth is similar to Meta Knight. I think they share a few similar traits, but they're by far too different to be similar.

A lot of people do say that, and use it as a way to discredit Marth. I more or less assumed that you would be of the same train of thought since it would go in line with your other arguments. My mistake.

Marth is horrible, he has far too many downsides to be able to compete with the majority of S and A Tier. He belongs in the lower A Tier, if not even B Tier, in my opinion.

This is way over exaggerated, though... Marth is certainly not horrible, and obviously not B tier.

Personally I think that Marth is a better candidate for bottom of S tier than King DeDeDe is. Marth has far fewer bad matchups, and more neutral matchups against the other S tiers.

DeDeDe can barely be considered S tier at all. He is vastly overrated due to his chain grab, which isn't nearly as significant as most would claim it to be. D3 has a terrible matchup against Falco (unwinable just about) and a barely mediocre matchup at best against Metaknight. Snake vs DeDeDe is so easily in Snake's favor so long as the Snake has a bit of matchup experience, it's ridiculous that people are still saying DeDeDe ***** Snake... it's totally absurd.

Marth is a VERY good character, even when compared to the other S tiers.

 

[Red Arremer]

Oh, and snake vs. marth is not by far in snake's favor. Sure at noob levels he is, but higher levels it's pretty even. After seeing chaz (best marth in florida) play that's what I believe anyway

Then I'll say that Lucas is Top Tier because one of our best players and the best Lucas in Europe (and perhaps the world) has utterly ***** the high tier character mains here in Austria.

It's dumb to pin what a character can do respectively their potential onto one player, because, maybe it will occur to you sooner or later, that a good player doesn't make a character better. A good player just knows how to overcome their character's weaknesses and is able to adapt to the enemy better with the options they have.

As a DeDeDe / Falco main, a good Marth is one of my most difficult matches in the game for both characters, outside of hard counters such as Ice Climbers.

I personally hate fighting Marth, I absolutely LOATHE it. A good Marth probably can easily keep me in check. But that only makes me vulnerable to this character. Just because you have trouble with Marth, it doesn't mean he's any better. You just have trouble adapting your tactics to him.

I should have also typed "most of", my mistake-- my point still stands based on that, though.

It still is wrong.

A lot of people do say that, and use it as a way to discredit Marth. I more or less assumed that you would be of the same train of thought since it would go in line with your other arguments. My mistake.

Point taken.

This is way over exaggerated, though... Marth is certainly not horrible, and obviously not B tier.

Lower A Tier, I'll give you that much.

Personally I think that Marth is a better candidate for bottom of S tier than King DeDeDe is.

In the current state of the metagame, Dedede is a justified S Tier position. He still holds the thirdbest tournament placings after ~1 year of release. He most likely will go down after some time, but currently Dedede is S Tier, simple as that.

Marth has far fewer bad matchups, and more neutral matchups against the other S tiers. DeDeDe has a terrible matchup against Falco (unwinable just about) and a barely mediocre matchup at best against Metaknight. Snake vs DeDeDe is so easily in Snake's favor so long as the Snake has a bit of matchup experience, it's ridiculous that people are still saying DeDeDe ***** Snake... it's totally absurd.

Yet Dedede has far more tournament results than Marth. Hmmmm...

 

[etecoon]

people still think MK's dsmash is difficult to punish o_O

 

[Ryusuta]

people still think MK's dsmash is difficult to punish o_O

...Yes? Is this really a question?

 

[etecoon]

you have an 18 frame advantage from shield drop on it, how is that difficult?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Can anybody tell me who I CAN trust, because obviously I can't trust the character boards which has been established a million times over and over both by the other posters and myself. Where the hell do I go for official, trustable, updated match-ups?
Oh right, there is no place. Who do you expect me to trust, huh? I'm not trust you and your little buddy, I really don't care who agrees with you. I want something official, and for now, there IS nothing official, so I have to deal with the next best thing: character match-up threads.

Btw just a note... and I'm not just saying this to you, but to everyone generally . Technically there will never be anything "official". It'll always be made up of people's opinions, ideas, beliefs... only way it can be "official" is if everyone agrees, or if a group of people who are chosen by and supported by people make an "official statement".

 

[mountain_tiger]

Some people have crappy reactions (e.g. me) and can't react in that amount of time easily.

 

[etecoon]

I have horrible reaction time and I do just fine with it...just have to predict it because I can't block it on reaction, but punishing it once it has been blocked or dodged? easy as hell.

 

[mountain_tiger]

You have to actually see me fight to realise how bad I am at punishing. Occasionally I can't even punish Lucas' USmash in the time allotted...

 

[MetalMusicMan]

people still think MK's dsmash is difficult to punish o_O

you have an 18 frame advantage from shield drop on it, how is that difficult?

I agree-- MK d-smash isn't a problem at all if you shield properly and punish after you shield. Even easier if you powershield it. Furthermore, it gets stale FAST after the first hit and can be easily DI'd so long as you aren't too close to the ledge already.

In the current state of the metagame, Dedede is a justified S Tier position. He still holds the thirdbest tournament placings after ~1 year of release. He most likely will go down after some time, but currently Dedede is S Tier, simple as that.

So you agree that DeDeDe is over rated, yes? Saying that he is "currently" S tier isn't true, though. I would have agreed with you during the last Tier list release, but far too many people have wisened up and aren't blindly jumping into grabs at this point. Obviously DeDeDe has the best grab game, but there are many ways around it, and without a consistant grab game, he suffers. He has options, but they are few and far between: Air camp, b-air spam... f-tilt... try to grab.

DeDeDe's future metagame is severely handicapped because of this limitation, and that future is now.

Marth has no such blatant handicap, he is a much more versatile character than DeDeDe.

Yet Dedede has far more tournament results than Marth. Hmmmm...

You kind of shot yourself in the foot there...

If we placed characters in the tier list based soley off of their tournament winnings records, as you suggest here, then Marth would be the 6th best character in the game, placing him in S tier, where DeDeDe is now.

How then can you still say that Marth is horrible? Or even that he is bottom of A tier?

 

[Gindler]

Then I'll say that Lucas is Top Tier because one of our best players and the best Lucas in Europe (and perhaps the world) has utterly ***** the high tier character mains here in Austria.



In the current state of the metagame, Dedede is a justified S Tier position. He still holds the thirdbest tournament placings after ~1 year of release. He most likely will go down after some time, but currently Dedede is S Tier, simple as that.



Yet Dedede has far more tournament results than Marth. Hmmmm...

I was saying matchup. I never said marth was top tier, just saying that marth vs. snake isn't as bad as you stated, you dragged top tier into this.

D3's tourney placings are really good, people really don't want him in S tier with those kinda result?

you have an 18 frame advantage from shield drop on it, how is that difficult?

People without triggers can't punish the Dsmash
But yeah It's a pretty overrated move.

 

[Frown]

DeDeDe can barely be considered S tier at all. He is vastly overrated due to his chain grab, which isn't nearly as significant as most would claim it to be. D3 has a terrible matchup against Falco (unwinable just about) and a barely mediocre matchup at best against Metaknight. Snake vs DeDeDe is so easily in Snake's favor so long as the Snake has a bit of matchup experience, it's ridiculous that people are still saying DeDeDe ***** Snake... it's totally absurd.

You mean the guy who has the second longest grab range in the game, nearly ungimpable recovery, heaviest weight in the game (with DI), the longest disjointed hitbox in the game, a pummel + bthrow combo that deals 19%, an efficient kamikaze move, and ******** priority and range on most attacks.

Oh, then there's that move that can deal 40% on half the cast.

I mean, that guy deserves thatspot.

 

[Zankoku]

you have an 18 frame advantage from shield drop on it, how is that difficult?

Properly spaced, you'll probably have to unshield and do something, giving you at least a -7 on that for frame drop, meaning you now have 11 frames. But that's not the big thing.

The important thing is that many spotdodges last for around 30 frames and grabs last for around 40 frames. Many (low to mid level) players hit shieldgrab on reflex, and properly spaced, it's invariably going to whiff. That's a +20 frame advantage for Meta Knight. Similar results with late spotdodges, though not as punishable.

If Meta Knight is telegraphing it, though, you've pretty much got free domain over what you want to do.

 

[Gindler]

You mean the guy who has the second longest grab range in the game, nearly ungimpable recovery, heaviest weight in the game (with DI), the longest disjointed hitbox in the game, a pummel + bthrow combo that deals 19%, an efficient kamikaze move, and ******** priority and range on most attacks.

Oh, then there's that move that can deal 40% on half the cast.

I mean, that guy deserves thatspot.

See he's not that good

You forgot that ridiculous Bair he has, hate that thing.

And he doesn't have the second longest, he's 9th (only beaten by all the tetherers though)

Properly spaced, you'll probably have to unshield and do something, giving you at least a -7 on that for frame drop, meaning you now have 11 frames. But that's not the big thing.

The important thing is that many spotdodges last for around 30 frames and grabs last for around 40 frames. Many (low to mid level) players hit shieldgrab on reflex, and properly spaced, it's invariably going to whiff. That's a +20 frame advantage for Meta Knight. Similar results with late spotdodges, though not as punishable.

If Meta Knight is telegraphing it, though, you've pretty much got free domain over what you want to do.

I've learned what percent I won't be shield grabbing that Dsmash, so if I'm over it I'll Nair OOS (when wario) once people start to realize you can't shield grab everything it'll be even less effective.....with perfect shield though you can shield grab anything anytime.

You kind of shot yourself in the foot there...

If we placed characters in the tier list based soley off of their tournament winnings records, as you suggest here, then Marth would be the 6th best character in the game, placing him in S tier, where DeDeDe is now.

How then can you still say that Marth is horrible? Or even that he is bottom of A tier?

So very very true, Wario doesn't say have the best tourney results (yet). But he is third on the list right where he belongs.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You mean the guy who has the second longest grab range in the game, nearly ungimpable recovery, heaviest weight in the game (with DI), the longest disjointed hitbox in the game, a pummel + bthrow combo that deals 19%, an efficient kamikaze move, and ******** priority and range on most attacks.

Oh, then there's that move that can deal 40% on half the cast.

I mean, that guy deserves thatspot.

Yeah let us name his attributes and then forget the fct that Falco, Olimar and IC's give him a hard time and that those three characters aren't exactly the most popular in comparison to himself, MK, and Snake.

Hence why I feel my stament issupported that the reason DDD outpforms Marth is simply becase the metagame has advanced to a point where Marth has greater difficulties.

 

[Red Arremer]

[words]

Not going to split up that quote again.

Okay, I understand your point. I think Dedede will go down, as you said. But the tier list also shows the current metagame, not only character potential, since metagame is a vital point. And Dedede still places third, and that very constantly since about a year.

Marth has had some better and worse times, he usually is around 6-10.

But, taking away all of these points, why weren't you able to counter my points when I talked about his general abilities and potential? You didn't bring an actual counter argument, you brought up an entirely different character.

I said something among the lines "He has trouble KOing, is light, has mediocre recovery and his defensive game sucks, furthermore he has disadvantages against many higher tiered characters", and you said "But Dedede!!!!!".

My personal view on Dedede has nothing to do with my personal view on Marth. Which is that he's low A, at best.

I was saying matchup. I never said marth was top tier, just saying that marth vs. snake isn't as bad as you stated, you dragged top tier into this.

With proper strategy, Marth is in a severe to slight disadvantage against most of the higher tiered characters, mainly S and A Tiers.

D3's tourney placings are really good, people really don't want him in S tier with those kinda result?

Dunno, I think he's S Tier as of now. He might drop. I don't know how it'll look in a few months or so from now.


Seriously, don't overrate Marth's priority so much.

 

[mountain_tiger]

You mean the guy who has the second longest grab range in the game, nearly ungimpable recovery, heaviest weight in the game (with DI), the longest disjointed hitbox in the game, a pummel + bthrow combo that deals 19%, an efficient kamikaze move, and ******** priority and range on most attacks.

Oh, then there's that move that can deal 40% on half the cast.

I mean, that guy deserves thatspot.

Absolutely no one here is denying that D3 is good, because doing so would be foolish. People are simply saying that he's not as good as some people say he is. Most of what you said is more or less right, but there are a couple of things I want to pick out.

You said that he has the second longest grab range. Presumably you're ignoring tethers, and if that's the case then D3 has the best grab range. Also, his recovery is NOT ungimpable. Once his super armour frames are up, he's a sitting duck (or penguin ) for punishment. For example, as a Peach main, I can use UTilt, Fair or even USmash to punish him, and at higher percents that can kill. I also find it strange that you mention nothing about his Bair edgeguarding or his fast and deadly UTilt.

 

[Red Arremer]

You said that he has the second longest grab range. Presumably you're ignoring tethers, and if that's the case then D3 has the best grab range.

Charizard has the best non-tether grab range in the game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Charizard has the best non-tether grab range in the game.

Screw Charizard he sucks.

 

[Red Arremer]

Screw Charizard he sucks.

So does Marth. :3

 

[Gindler]

Absolutely no one here is denying that D3 is good, because doing so would be foolish. People are simply saying that he's not as good as some people say he is. Most of what you said is more or less right, but there are a couple of things I want to pick out.

You said that he has the second longest grab range. Presumably you're ignoring tethers, and if that's the case then D3 has the best grab range. Also, his recovery is NOT ungimpable. Once his super armour frames are up, he's a sitting duck (or penguin ) for punishment. For example, as a Peach main, I can use UTilt, Fair or even USmash to punish him, and at higher percents that can kill. I also find it strange that you mention nothing about his Bair edgeguarding or his fast and deadly UTilt.

Star Koing with Usmash is not a gimp.

Charizard has the best non-tether grab range in the game.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236133

Almost true. Apparently a half block difference.

Screw Charizard he sucks.

This

 

[Red Arremer]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236133

Almost true. Apparently a half block difference.

Oh, okay. I stand corrected then. Thanks for the info.

 

[Gindler]

Oh, okay. I stand corrected then. Thanks for the info.

No problem, I always thought he did too with that long neck of his.

 

[Matador]

Btw just a note... and I'm not just saying this to you, but to everyone generally . Technically there will never be anything "official". It'll always be made up of people's opinions, ideas, beliefs... only way it can be "official" is if everyone agrees, or if a group of people who are chosen by and supported by people make an "official statement".

Don't forget that matchups are always open to change, and that ratios are always fluctuating despite both sides agreeing on ratios. It's all theory and best-guess to get as close as possible to the truth.

Luigi vs Diddy? Facts stated lead to clear advantage Luigi. First hand recollection from both sides, factual data (Luigi's harder to combo due to traction), and results from matches with pros support the theory of advantage Luigi. Therefore, even if it's NOT actually 60:40, we know it's Luigi's advantage for whatever reasons, and data supports that.

Again, it's theory. And theory is never 100%.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So does Marth. :3

Only because the metagame so far makes his bad matchups more popular.
If it were that the metagame had equal distribution among characters, I bet Marth would be considered more viable.

 

[Red Arremer]

Only because the metagame so far makes his bad matchups more popular.
If it were that the metagame had equal distribution among characters, I bet Marth would be considered more viable.

If he had no blue hair, he'd be more viable. :B

I still think he's horrible taking everything into consideration.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Hold on a second. You say that Marth is horrible, then you say that he should be in B Tier. How is B Tier horrible? IMO, a horrible character is E Tier and below.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm sure it has been said before, but the voting system was amazing and I think it should always be done like this from now on. That said, S and most of A tier are indeed far and away from everyone else, but B tier through part of E tier, in my opinion, comprises of pretty solid characters, while the very bottom are very lacking but still not totally unusable in the perfect world. I just think that it's less about a few good and tons of bad than it is tons of good and a few excellent, but I guess it's just about the same thing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If he had no blue hair, he'd be more viable. :B

I use a texture where his hair is black or blond or white.
He is more viable now.

I still think he's horrible taking everything into consideration.

That is understandable.
If anyone asks you thogh, you got ***** in the debate by me.
<_<

 

[Tyr_03]

Marth is just a stupid character.

I respect Metaknight players far more than I respect Marth players.

I wish he wasn't in this game.

So **** boring.

"Whoa look at me, I'm effeminate and have a big sword!" *in Japanese because he's too lazy to learn English*

I don't care how he does in tournaments, he's just annoying.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I said something among the lines "He has trouble KOing, is light, has mediocre recovery and his defensive game sucks, furthermore he has disadvantages against many higher tiered characters", and you said "But Dedede!!!!!".

My personal view on Dedede has nothing to do with my personal view on Marth. Which is that he's low A, at best.

It does have to do with DeDeDe, though. Just like it has to do with MK and Snake and Falco. How viable Marth is and how he compares as a character to the rest of the S Tier is exactly what you are debating when you debate where a character should be placed.

I wasn't sidestepping, I was adding further relevant data.

Nonetheless, I will address your comments directly as requested:

"Marth has trouble KOing" - I do not think that Marth has any difficulty KOing at all. Marth has an extremely valid edge guarding game. If you are suggesting that it can be difficult for Marth to connect with a forward smash, that's true-- but that is hardly his most efficient means of killing. Marth kills come from edge guarding with fairs, which lead to either a gimp or a dolphin slash reversal to b-air or even d-air depending on the circumstance.

Much like DeDeDe, Marth's arial pressure/damage racking move is also a very efficient kill move, and he has an additional arial for extra power / killing. With DeDeDe he has Bair as a main with Fair as an extra oomph move. Marth is just the opposite, with Fair as his primary and Bair a very strong KO move while edge guarding.

In addition to this, Marth can bait air dodges from the ground and kill with up-tilt or up-smash. He also has the option of up-b out of shield, though it is admittedly very situational.


"Marth is light" - He's closer to lower-middle weight, I wouldn't call him light. In addition, F-air is a very fast arial so with proper DI he can survive horizontal kill moves fairly decently.


"has mediocre recovery" - He has the 12th best horizontal air speed in the game, making it very easy for him to float back to the stage from most knock backs. Obviously his up-b is suseptable to edge guarding, but it is easily overcomable. He is weak to horizontally-out-and-down knock back archs, but that knockback arch is a problem for everyone but ROB, Pit, MK, etc really.


"his defensive game sucks" - He really doesn't need much of a defensive game at all, with his air speed and fantastic reach, he can easily out maneuver and out space many campy characters, much like Wario. Also, parry vs Tornado

 

[Red Arremer]

Hold on a second. You say that Marth is horrible, then you say that he should be in B Tier. How is B Tier horrible? IMO, a horrible character is E Tier and below.

Because I hate people riding on verbal details.

I use a texture where his hair is black or blond or white.
He is more viable now.

Yes. He is. Does he speak English now, and doesn't ask everyone to look at him?

That is understandable.
If anyone asks you thogh, you got ***** in the debate by me.
<_<

Hmm... what would I get for it?

@MetalMusicMan:
Marth's killing moves are highly punishable and/or situational, hence it's pretty easy to avoid getting KOed by him. Patience and proper use of spacing tools make Marth go BAWWWWW.

Anyway, I doubt you will ever understand what I'm actually saying because you only assume that Marth's player is good and his opponent doesn't know ****.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes. He is. Does he speak English now, and doesn't ask everyone to look at him?

I can make him speak English if I wanted.
I actually made announcer curse =)

Hmm... what would I get for it?

Um uh?
Cookies?
Sex?
Both?

My respect?

btw, I think Marth's defensive game is actually quite good.
Mobility, 0frame activation move with invincibility? WIN!

 

[Zankoku]

Because I hate people riding on verbal details.

To claim someone is "horrible" is a pretty major detail. Unless you were specifically intending to spark debate or provoke something, it defines Marth as bad to the point of not belonging anywhere higher than bottom of middle tier.

That is, unless you have a completely different definition for "horrible" that means "merely above average."

 

[Red Arremer]

I can make him speak English if I wanted.
I actually made announcer curse =)

Hahaha, epic. <3

Um uh?
Cookies?
Sex?
Both?

My respect?

I take the second and the fourth, please. :3

To claim someone is "horrible" is a pretty major detail. Unless you were specifically intending to spark debate or provoke something, it defines Marth as bad to the point of not belonging anywhere higher than bottom of middle tier.

That is, unless you have a completely different definition for "horrible" that means "merely above average."

I mainly aim with that for people to stop overrating him. ^_^

He isn't horrible per se, but I like people going rabid because of that, and I hope that this will make them realize that priority and speaking Japanese isn't what makes a character Top Tier.

 

[Frown]

I really thought Charizard had the longest grab.

Well, you learn something every minute.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hahaha, epic. <3

Very but its annoying unpacking everything and then repacking it.
ESPECIALLY repacking everything because there is no actual tool for doing i automatically. @_@

I take the second and the fourth, please. :3

The second was a joke.
I has a ball and chain attached to me so I cannot make due on it XD

 

[MetalMusicMan]

@MetalMusicMan:

I doubt you will ever understand what I'm actually saying because you only assume that Marth's player is good and his opponent doesn't know ****.

Wow... I was going to say that I enjoyed this respectful debate but then you throw that at me. Allllrrriiiiighty then.



I will say that I find your statements towards my view of assuming Marth's opponent "doesn't know ****" is very hypocritical...

I think you are just mirroring your own thoughts back on me, it's quite obvious.

You seem to think that all Marths are terrible and cannot get kills because they are impatient and will spam Fsmash, and that everyone who plays against Marth will easily out maneuver spammed Fsmashes because that his his only viable kill move.

I have already stated and made obvious that Marth's most viable and least punishable kill moves are off the stage, but you seem to be ignoring that.



Anyway, since you aren't interested in furthering things, I guess we're done.