The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Ryusuta]

Match-up averages by themselves is NOT a way to gauge whether a character can win a tournament.

 

[Brinzy]

It kinda is. If you 90-10 A tier and below but get 10:90'd by S tier, you're not winning anything. By contrast, if you lose out to a big chunk of A tier and below but beat most of S tier, you probably stand a better chance at winning.

 

[Red Arremer]

Less than 3.

Nyebo uronit
Noch' na ladoni
Nas ne dogonyat
Nas ne dogonyat~

@Marth:
The thing is, just like with Meta Knight, Marth has no really huge advantage on many characters. And those he has a huge advantage on are not really tournament viable anyway. Additionally to this, he has disadvantageous or even matchups to the majority of High and Top Tier, and even some Mid Tier characters (at least in the upper half).

Marth's only upside is his insane priority and speed, but that won't help him against everything. He has trouble KOing, a mediocre recovery, is light weighted and has a rather lacking defensive game, especially with that weak spot below him.

He'll never be S Tier, and I think pretty much the majority of A Tier are better than Marth, as well.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I disagree. Falco has seen approximately the same amount of success that Marth has in tournaments.

And Falco went down.

 

[M.K]

@Marth:
The thing is, just like with Meta Knight, Marth has no really huge advantage on many characters. And those he has a huge advantage on are not really tournament viable anyway. Additionally to this, he has disadvantageous or even matchups to the majority of High and Top Tier, and even some Mid Tier characters (at least in the upper half).

Marth's only upside is his insane priority and speed, but that won't help him against everything. He has trouble KOing, a mediocre recovery, is light weighted and has a rather lacking defensive game, especially with that weak spot below him.

He'll never be S Tier, and I think pretty much the majority of A Tier are better than Marth, as well.

I checked the Marth Match-up boards myself. Marth only has disadvantegeous match-ups against Meta-Knight, Snake, and Dedede. That is 3 / 13 of the S and A tier characters, which comes out to 23%, not even CLOSE to a "majority of High and Top Tier". I think it would be better if you stop pulling statistics out of thin air. Even match-ups shouldn't count as a disadvantage of a character, because just like it implies, both characters have the equal ability to win the match and it's mostly dependent on player skill (and luck, tripping, poisoning before the match, nannerz IRL, murder, yada yada yada).

And yes, I understand that Match-ups are an iffy subject and can't be trusted and all that jazz, but it's the best source of information, and the SBR doesn't really provide any other sort of "official match-up directory", so you'll have to bear with those statistics. It isn't my fault if they are incorrect, it's just human error on their part.

 

[Red Arremer]

And as we all know, matchup discussions in character boards are always 100% correct, absolutely objective, backed up by top players and completely up to date with every discovery.

 

[Zankoku]

and Yes, I Understand That Match-ups Are An Iffy Subject And Can't Be Trusted And All That Jazz, But It's The Best Source Of Information, And The Sbr Doesn't Really Provide Any Other Sort Of "official Match-up Directory", So You'll Have To Bear With Those Statistics. It Isn't My Fault If They Are Incorrect, It's Just Human Error On Their Part.

and As We All Know, Matchup Discussions In Character Boards Are Always 100% Correct, Absolutely Objective, Backed Up By Top Players And Completely Up To Date With Every Discovery.

: v

 

[Red Arremer]

That was an edit of his. I swear to God that paragraph wasn't there before I posted it.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Spadefox, Marth only has trouble killing if you can't hit with the sword's sweetspot.

 

[Red Arremer]

So what are his killing options? Tipped FSmash. NAir, maybe. Wow, that's really much.

 

[M.K]

That was an edit of his. I swear to God that paragraph wasn't there before I posted it.

Yeah, sorry, it was my edit, I forgot to write it in the first time.
It still holds true, though, and unless you want this problem to persist, the Back Room should come up with some sort of official match-up list WITH all the pro players who update it constantly with each and every discovery.
Although it will still be objective, it will have less of a margin of error than general community-created lists.
Just like this tier list right here, we trust it more than any fan created one because it was made by you guys and not some random "CoolGuy1337Mudkipz" from GameFaqz.

So what are his killing options? Tipped FSmash. NAir, maybe. Wow, that's really much.

UpTilt, DAir, FAir, BAir, UAir....seriously, there are alot of them, tippered and untippered. >_> The majority of "disadvantegous" things you said about Marth to prove that he "is horrible" have really been inaccurate and ignorant.

 

[Zankoku]

Tipper fsmash, nair, and dsmash all kill at very modest %'s. Dolphin Slash, usmash, tipper uair, and utilt are somewhat decent.

The "problems killing" is much more relevant regarding the fact that, well, this game has a shield.

 

[M@v]

And as we all know, matchup discussions in character boards are always 100% correct, absolutely objective, backed up by top players and completely up to date with every discovery.

THIS

Spoiler

yeah he pretty much owned you. Most character boards matchups suck. Fox boards is way out of date, ignore them until the rediscussions are done

 

[Tyr_03]

Marth is the most boring character in the game.

He just waves that **** sword around.

Atleast Metaknight can travel in another dimension and ****.

 

[Inui]

I disagree. Falco has seen approximately the same amount of success that Marth has in tournaments.

Um... Maybe overall, but I've seen Falco take 1st/2nd plenty of times. Marth doesn't do that well. MikeHaze and Bardull did well recently, but never got past 3rd. Marth's just not good enough to do it, really...

I checked the Marth Match-up boards myself. Marth only has disadvantegeous match-ups against Meta-Knight, Snake, and Dedede.

Don't trust character boards. Marth definitely loses to ROB and DK slightly as well. Pierce7d will agree with me.

That applies to a lot of characters though, surely? And 45/55 isn't that bad a matchup tbh. It's only slightly in their favour. And you seem to be ignoring the fact that he has great matchups agaisnt **** near everyone else.

You have to be able to beat the top tiers in order to win, and Marth sucks huge balls against three of them and then loses to two other characters.

Also, it's 60/40 at least for Snake, Dedede, and MK.

Even if he ***** most of the cast, he loses to a gigantic chunk of the tournament scene.

 

[M.K]

THIS

Spoiler

yeah he pretty much owned you. Most character boards matchups suck. Fox boards is way out of date, ignore them until the rediscussions are done

You realize I edited that in to my last post, so he did not in fact "own me", because I remembered to say the same thing.

Don't trust character boards. Marth definitely loses to ROB and DK slightly as well. Pierce7d will agree with me.

Can anybody tell me who I CAN trust, because obviously I can't trust the character boards which has been established a million times over and over both by the other posters and myself. Where the hell do I go for official, trustable, updated match-ups?
Oh right, there is no place. Who do you expect me to trust, huh? I'm not trust you and your little buddy, I really don't care who agrees with you. I want something official, and for now, there IS nothing official, so I have to deal with the next best thing: character match-up threads.

Hell, I'd even head up a project like this if someone gave me the chance.

 

[Red Arremer]

Tipper fsmash, nair, and dsmash all kill at very modest %'s. Dolphin Slash, usmash, tipper uair, and utilt are somewhat decent.

The "problems killing" is much more relevant regarding the fact that, well, this game has a shield.

The majority of these kill moves can be punished pretty badly or are rather situational. <.<

THIS

:D <3 Mav~

Marth is the most boring character in the game.

He just waves that **** sword around.

Atleast Metaknight can travel in another dimension and ****.

This man knows what he's speaking about.

 

[Ryusuta]

Nyebo uronit
Noch' na ladoni
Nas ne dogonyat
Nas ne dogonyat~

*Swoons~*

Marth is the most boring character in the game.

He just waves that **** sword around.

Atleast Metaknight can travel in another dimension and ****.

Are you sure you didn't mean to say Ike?

 

[Zankoku]

Um... Maybe overall, but I've seen Falco take 1st/2nd plenty of times. Marth doesn't do that well. MikeHaze and Bardull did well recently, but never got past 3rd. Marth's just not good enough to do it, really...

Uh, okay? ***** I run the character rankings list and I see that Falco's won exactly five tourneys in the past three months. My records tell me Falco's won 5 tournaments while Marth's won 10. Their other placements in the top 8 are comparable. This not only tells me that Falco and Marth aren't that far from each other in results, but also that their tournament wins were not in any major events.

Falco's just not good enough to make it either, sadly...

The majority of these kill moves can be punished pretty badly or are rather situational. <.<

Nah, they're not particularly situational besides the Dolphin Slash, but the "punished pretty badly" is the big part of it. I find it rather funny that you listed off fsmash initially, though, seeing as how that's one of the most punishable kill moves that Marth has.

 

[Red Arremer]

*Swoons~*

Ja lyublyu tebya. ;D

Are you sure you didn't mean to say Ike?

Nah, Ike's sword is at least big and manly, and he fights for his friends whom he has no sympathy for.

Nah, they're not particularly situational besides the Dolphin Slash, but the "punished pretty badly" is the big part of it. I find it rather funny that you listed off fsmash initially, though, seeing as how that's one of the most punishable kill moves that Marth has.

Eh, USmash is rather situational too, imo.

I've played Marth for some time, and despite him having some options to kill, they're not extremely reliable. If you look at other characters suffering the same problems, such as R.O.B., Zero Suit Samus or Falco, you'll see that they have at least very quick options, or options that are secure enough to use, such as Zero Suit Samus' Side B or Falco's Boost Smash.

I'm not saying he has no killing options at all, I'm just saying that with proper spacing and the right tactic, Marth will hardly have the chance to kill you.

 

[Zankoku]

Maybe I'm not emphasizing enough on the point which I'm agreeing with you on.
the "punished pretty badly" is the big part of it.

Yes, Marth cannot reliably kill early because his largely punishable set of kill options do not allow him to safely fish for KOs. However, my argument was against your initial post, which was simply

So what are his killing options? Tipped FSmash. NAir, maybe. Wow, that's really much.

Yet now you tell me

I'm not saying he has no killing options at all, I'm just saying that with proper spacing and the right tactic, Marth will hardly have the chance to kill you.

Your revision is much more accurate and completely in line with what I was trying to say.

 

[Red Arremer]

Okay. I got your point there. It was more a slightly sarcastic respond to "lol, u nub, u just cant tipper ur attcks" from mountain_tiger.

I still think Marth is horrible.

 

[Zankoku]

Glad that's the one thing cleared up.

The other thing doesn't matter much to me.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Okay. I got your point there. It was more a slightly sarcastic respond to "lol, u nub, u just cant tipper ur attcks" from mountain_tiger.

I still think Marth is horrible.

Oh, come on. That's hardly how it was phrased...

 

[Red Arremer]

Oh, come on. That's hardly how it was phrased...

But it's basically what he said, lol.
Of course there's a difference in sound, but in the end it spins down to be exactly the same content.

 

[demonictoonlink]

LOL at Marth being horrible BS

 

[Nanaki]

So, I did some stats analysis on the tier list voting to see which characters were truly separated from others in the SBR voting process. The results are as follows (prepare for lots o text):

*Disclaimer: All analysis was done on voting by SBR, none of my opinions are expressed in these results. I am not a part of the SBR, nor do I speak for them.*

I broke down each "grouping" from the first round of voting into statistically significant subgroupings. What this means is
ANY CHARACTERS LISTED TOGETHER ARE NOT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER OR WORSE THAN EACH OTHER, AND THEREFORE THEIR ORDER WITHIN THEIR RANK DOES NOT MATTER IN THE SLIGHTEST. .

Current S/A Tier:

SS Rank: Meta Knight
S Rank: Snake
A Rank: Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong
B Rank: King DeDeDe
C rank: Marth
D Rank: Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers
E Rank: R.O.B.
F Rank: Kirby

Current B/C/D Tier (without Ike and PT)

S Rank: Lucario
A Rank: Zero Suit Samus
B Rank: Toon Link, Pit, Donkey Kong
C Rank: Peach
D Rank: Luigi, Fox, Wolf, Sonic, Sheik
E Rank: Bowser
F Rank: Zelda

Current E/F Tier (with Ike and PT)

S Rank: Ike, Pokemon Trainer
A Rank: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi
B Rank: Samus, Jigglypuff
C Rank: Captain Falcon, Link
G Rank: Ganondorf

This list puts a different spin on things with the same set of data. Any characters listed together may be used in that position completely interchangeably. Therefore, it's possible that Diddy Kong is as high as third, and that Wario is as low as fifth, etc.

I found it interesting, at least. It somewhat downplays the leaps of characters' positions on the list. For example, Wario may have jumped up from seventh to third in the tier list, but in reality, he's statistically TIED for third with Falco and Diddy. Sonic may have actually jumped higher than presumed, as he's actually tied with Luigi, Fox, Wolf, and Sheik in this list.

Thoughts?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Um... Maybe overall, but I've seen Falco take 1st/2nd plenty of times. Marth doesn't do that well. MikeHaze and Bardull did well recently, but never got past 3rd. Marth's just not good enough to do it, really...

Well then it can mean several things.

1.Marth's amtchups are not as good as it is saifd to be.
2. The players are not stepping it up
3. marth is running into his bad matchups moreso than DDD and several other characters

Most likely 3.
Which of course makes sense considering the tierlist is metagame related currently.

Don't trust character boards. Marth definitely loses to ROB and DK slightly as well. Pierce7d will agree with me.

Why would he lose to ROB?
DK? understandable but explain ROB.
Considering that both Marth and MK share very similar traits and if anything, Marth has an easier time approaching due to his enhanced mobility and aerial speed.

You have to be able to beat the top tiers in order to win, and Marth sucks huge balls against three of them and then loses to two other characters.

Also, it's 60/40 at least for Snake, Dedede, and MK.

Even if he ***** most of the cast, he loses to a gigantic chunk of the tournament scene.

This makes sense in a metagame tierlist which is true.
But are we also not forgetting that the aforementioned "top tiers" like DDD also have problematic matchups to a greater degree than marth does?
Olimar, IC's and other characters give him a tough time.

by that logic, every other character who has a disadvantage against MK isn't going to win because MK makes up such a large part of the metagame.
Since of course, MK being the best has lead to him being extremely popular making it much more problematic for characters with disadvantages to win against him.

As such I will have to disagree with marth being considered a bad character.
primarily because several cahracters including Falco, DDD and Snake all have disadvantaged matchups. Even though those matchups are distributed along moreso than Marth, this does not change the fact that those disadvantages exist.

I also believe that it is due to the metagame that Marth is not able to win.
DDD and MK are among his harder matchups and among the more common characters.
So it makes sense that Falco can possibly win because he can deal with DDD more easily.

Metagame based: Yes, Marth won't be winning any tournaments based on the character distribution in the present metagame.
Otherwise, I believe you are wrong in saynig Marth is not capable of winning tournaments.

 

[Gindler]

lol @ Kirby

Olimar stayed 10th.. bleh

But Gratz for the Wario community for owning hard.

Wario I saw coming. But sonic? Holy hotcakes

Marth currently can't take 1st at a big tournament with a lot of good players there. Sorry, but fighting constant 55/45 and 60/40 disadvantages for 90% of the tournament = horrible. He loses to MK, Snake, Dedede, ROB, and DK. Combined that's easily like 90% of any given event, lmao.

Imo, that's bad/horrible. The entire current S tier has and still does take 1st at big events frequently.

DK? this must be a DKless area of america I guess

So what are his killing options? Tipped FSmash. NAir, maybe. Wow, that's really much.

Looks at MK. Oh just Dsmash and Shuttleloop?
Looks at Falco. Fsmash? that's it
Looks at diddy. Fsmash? that's it for you too?
D3? Bair, utilt. Don't say his smashes because those are so crazily punishable.

How'd all these guys get on S-tier? I guess you only need one kill move to kill people (snake could vouch for me, 8/10 of my deaths from snake are from only one move)

I wouldn't say number of kill moves is a good argument..........although that would help sonic, yoshi, pit, and sheik ALOT

 

[Zankoku]

The most important things for killing options are how easily they can be set up and how safe they are.

Meta Knight's dsmash and Shuttle Loop are (generally) difficult to punish, especially compared to, say, Marth's fsmash. Falco's lasers allow him to set up into a boost usmash for a guaranteed clean hit off of a relatively fast and safe attack.

Killing power is great, yes, but Sheik's tipped usmash is amazingly powerful, and look how far power alone gets it when it can only connect from above her. Its only save is the ability to directly set up into it from an ftilt or, sometimes, a grab release.

 

[gm jack]

Looks at MK. Oh just Dsmash and Shuttleloop?
Looks at Falco. Fsmash? that's it
Looks at diddy. Fsmash? that's it for you too?
D3? Bair, utilt. Don't say his smashes because those are so crazily punishable.

How'd all these guys get on S-tier? I guess you only need one kill move to kill people (snake could vouch for me, 8/10 of my deaths from snake are from only one move)

I wouldn't say number of kill moves is a good argument..........although that would help sonic, yoshi, pit, and sheik ALOT

MK - Dsmash = 5 frames of **** and is **** near impossible to punish. Besides, his gimping game is so good against many characters he won't need to smash them straight off for a kill.
Falco - Chaingrabs to spike is very hard for a lot of characters to recover from.
Diddy - His fair is also a good kill move. His Fsmash is harder to punish than Marths
DDD - Again, his are hard to punish, so even though they are few, it does not make them bad.


Look at Zelda, she has 3 power aerials on top of a powerful spike, all her smashes can kill, as can her Utilt, and her Dtilt sets up for kills nicely. Yet she blows, because she can't use any of them reliably against good characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We have Fsmah and Dmash.
THey are jut piss poor slow.

 

[hundreds of utilts]

eh? MK's dsmash is about the easiest thing to punish on shield.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I disagree. Falco has seen approximately the same amount of success that Marth has in tournaments.

This.

Nyebo uronit
@Marth:
The thing is, just like with Meta Knight, Marth has no really huge advantage on many characters. And those he has a huge advantage on are not really tournament viable anyway. Additionally to this, he has disadvantageous or even matchups to the majority of High and Top Tier, and even some Mid Tier characters (at least in the upper half).

He'll never be S Tier, and I think pretty much the majority of A Tier are better than Marth, as well.

Marth doesn't totally dominate anyone or have unlosable matchups in his favor-- I agree completely. I don't think Marth has a single bad matchup either, though. Most of his match ups are 50/50 at worst, 60/40 at absolute worst and there are so few of them...


I also disagree with the statement that Marth has bad matchups against all of S tier.

I find Marth to have a very even and possibly even advantagious matchup against DeDeDe and Falco, and depending on the stage he can do very well against Snake.

I keep hearing that MK ***** Marth but I have never seen any real evidence to this-- Marth's matchup against MK seems just as good as DeDeDe's, etc.



The only thing that hurts Marth is that not enough people play him--they end up going to Metaknight instead because everyone says "lawl just play MK" or something thereof. As if there is no downside to MK over Marth, when in actuality, although they are indeed very similar, Marth is very viable and isn't just a "crappier version of Metaknight".

 

[Brinzy]

Marth definitely looks like MK's apprentice to me.

 

[Red Arremer]

Marth doesn't have any total domination matches in his favori-- I agree. I don't think Marth has a single bad matchup either, though. Most of his match ups are 50/50 at worst...

IF you go by his character boards who overrate their character to a major extent, yes.

I also disagree with the statement that Marth has bad matchups against all of S tier.

Where did I say that? I said "majority", not "all". There's a difference.

I find Marth to have a very even and possibly even advantagious matchup against DeDeDe and Falco, and depending on the stage he can do very well against Snake.

You find that, I say that Falco has the advantage, Snake has the advantage by far, and Dedede probably has too, I'm not too knowledgeable about this match.

I keep hearing that MK ***** Marth but I have never seen any real evidence to this-- Marth's matchup against MK seems just as good as DeDeDe's, etc.

Disadvantageous, yes.

As if there is no downside to MK over Marth, when in actuality, although they are indeed very similar, Marth is very viable and isn't just a "crappier version of Metaknight".

I never said he's a "crapper version of Meta Knight", and neither I said he's completely unviable, neither that they are similar.

In fact, I never proposed that Marth is similar to Meta Knight. I think they share a few similar traits, but they're by far too different to be similar.

Marth is horrible, he has far too many downsides to be able to compete with the majority of S and A Tier. He belongs in the lower A Tier, if not even B Tier, in my opinion.

 

[Ryusuta]

I'd say that saying Marth is "horrible" or belongs in B tier is a real stretch, in my opinion.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Okay. I got your point there. It was more a slightly sarcastic respond to "lol, u nub, u just cant tipper ur attcks" from mountain_tiger.

I still think Marth is horrible.

Three things:

1) I didn't say it like that. It's a well-known fact that Marth's kill moves are strong when you tipper them. I have no idea how good you are with Marth; I'll happily admit that I suck at tippering his attacks.

2) You seem to think that I'm trolling you (which I'm not), yet to be honest I'd syat hat's very hypocritical when you simply said, 'Marth is horrible' and left it at that. Granted, you did give some reasoning afterwards, but you shouldn't simply say that sort of thing, because people will think that you're just trying to provoke a reaction.

3) I would understand it if you had said that Marth was overrated, but saying that he's horrible is simply not true. He outranges and outprioritises a good deal of the cast, and his attacks are pretty fast too. If you don't think he's as good as everyone else, fair enough. But saying that he sucks is like saying that Ganondorf is top tier.

 

[etecoon]

Can anybody tell me who I CAN trust, because obviously I can't trust the character boards which has been established a million times over and over both by the other posters and myself. Where the hell do I go for official, trustable, updated match-ups?
Oh right, there is no place. Who do you expect me to trust, huh? I'm not trust you and your little buddy, I really don't care who agrees with you. I want something official, and for now, there IS nothing official, so I have to deal with the next best thing: character match-up threads.

it can't be official because it's all subjective to some degree lol, analyze things yourself and make up your own mind, better than just regurgitating what others have told you.

on that subject, I think marth is a very good character but indeed unable to win large, national type tournaments alone. but then again I don't think anyone beyond MK/Snake/Wario can atm either, everyone else needs a solid secondary and it's probably a good idea with snake and wario too.

 

[Red Arremer]

Three things:

1) I didn't say it like that. It's a well-known fact that Marth's kill moves are strong when you tipper them. I have no idea how good you are with Marth; I'll happily admit that I suck at tippering his attacks.

k.

2) You seem to think that I'm trolling you (which I'm not), yet to be honest I'd syat hat's very hypocritical when you simply said, 'Marth is horrible' and left it at that. Granted, you did give some reasoning afterwards, but you shouldn't simply say that sort of thing, because people will think that you're just trying to provoke a reaction.

*shrugs* I have my reasons to post stuff like that. Marth is definitely not as good as most people think. They're scared of him. He's extremely gay to fight if you don't know what to do. But he's definitely not on the brink to Top Tier.

3) I would understand it if you had said that Marth was overrated, but saying that he's horrible is simply not true. He outranges and outprioritises a good deal of the cast, and his attacks are pretty fast too. If you don't think he's as good as everyone else, fair enough. But saying that he sucks is like saying that Ganondorf is top tier.

k.