The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Nanaki]

Since the specifics are sworn to secrecy in the SBR unless the individual releases his own vote, I'll only give you the standard deviations you asked for. Prepare for a wall of text.

NOTE: This data is updated with votes that came AFTER the deadline for that section, so you might notice a few differences.

PART 1 (37 votes)
Character		Average	Std.Dev
Meta Knight		1	0
Snake			1	0
Wario			1	0
Diddy Kong		1.03	0.16
Falco			1.03	0.16
King Dedede		1.03	0.16
Mr. Game & Watch	1.03	0.16
Marth			1.08	0.28
R.O.B.			1.14	0.35
Olimar			1.16	0.37
Pikachu			1.19	0.4
Ice Climbers		1.35	0.48
Kirby			1.38	0.49
Lucario			1.59	0.6
Zero Suit Samus		1.81	0.4
Toon Link		1.86	0.35
Donkey Kong		1.95	0.4
Pit			1.95	0.33
Peach			2.05	0.23
Sheik			2.11	0.39
Wolf			2.14	0.35
Luigi			2.19	0.4
Fox			2.27	0.45
Zelda			2.35	0.48
Bowser			2.54	0.51
Sonic 			2.54	0.51
Ike			2.62	0.49
Pokémon Trainer		2.65	0.48
Lucas			2.86	0.35
Ness			2.86	0.35
Mario			2.89	0.31
Jigglypuff		2.95	0.23
Link			2.97	0.16
Yoshi			2.97	0.16
Captain Falcon		3	0
Ganondorf		3	0
Samus			3	0

PART 2 (40 votes)
Characters		Average	Stdev
Meta Knight		1.03	0.16
Snake			2.38	0.84
Wario			4.63	1.89
Falco			4.83	2.05
Diddy Kong		5.03	1.86
King Dedede		6.18	2.53
Marth			7.6	2.33
Mr. Game & Watch	8.7	2.11
Pikachu			9.1	2.28
Olimar			9.23	2.51
Ice Climbers		9.5	2.78
R.O.B.			10.85	1.9
Kirby			11.98	1.31

PART 3 (33 votes)
Character	Average	Stdev
Lucario		1.12	0.33
Zero Suit Samus	1.48	0.62
Toon Link	1.97	0.73
Pit		2.24	0.9
Donkey Kong	2.27	0.88
Peach		2.73	0.76
Luigi		3.15	1.06
Fox		3.45	1
Wolf		3.55	0.83
Sonic		3.61	1.09
Sheik		3.64	0.99
Bowser		4.15	0.8
Zelda		4.73	0.57

PART 5 (35 votes)
Character	Average	Stdev
Ike		1.29	0.46
Pokémon Trainer	1.29	0.75
Lucas 		1.77	0.65
Mario		1.89	0.76
Ness		1.91	0.78
Yoshi		1.97	0.66
Samus 		2.43	0.88
Jigglypuff	2.83	0.95
Captain Falcon	3.37	0.65
Link		3.43	0.74
Ganondorf	3.74	0.51

Thanks, that's really interesting. Not quite as much disagreement as I wold have figured, but still interesting to look at. I'm going to run the stats I can on it and see if I can throw together a figure or two for you.

I like to be thorough about things like this - it lets me see just how much agreement there is in the SBR. Thanks again

 

[Kinzer]

More like no one in the USA is doing **** with Zelda in tournamebts to see just how good she really is.

Zelda being bad is part of the reason nobody wants to use her.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Zelda being bad is part of the reason nobody wants to use her.

Majority of Smashers are Male thus I believe that means they have negation to playing as a female character. Or would rather play as something else. After that factor majority would rather play with someone who is higher up and does well, something Zelda is not really a fan of.

Those 2 things probably play a part in the under-usage of Zelda.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's what Vidjo said about Peach when he first tried her. Same with the others that quit Peach and everyone saying Peach sucked and all. Look at her now compared to that time.

 

[Zankoku]

That's a rather strange hypothesis.

 

[Morrigan]

I think people are over that nowadays, I can only think of 13-15 year olds using that excuse. She's not an uber character, but I doubt her underrepresentation lies on what you said. See Peach and Melee (Sheik doesn't count, she's a boy lawl).

 

[Suspect]

Majority of Smashers are Male thus I believe that means they have negation to playing as a female character. Or would rather play as something else. After that factor majority would rather play with someone who is higher up and does well, something Zelda is not really a fan of.

Those 2 things probably play a part in the under-usage of Zelda.

That's a rather strange hypothesis.

inorite

food for thought, only 2 people i know that play zelda are male

 

[Inui]

Zelda sucks. I twostocked Snakeee's Zelda twice in tourny with Ike even after he said he knew how to fight Ike due to playing with Rykoshet. >_>;

The character is just plain helpless against anyone that knows how to get around her weak Din's Fire camping and deal with her smash attacks.

 

[Kinzer]

KID also said that Hilde from SC4 is a top tier character.

Sexism I think has next to no influence on peoples' choices.

 

[Inui]

KID also said that Hilde from SC4 is a top tier character.

Sexism I think has next to no influence on peoples' choices.

Hilde is the best character, dude. It's pretty much agreed upon by everyone at this point.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda thrives off of punishment. In fact, she has basically top-tier level punishment, because she doesn't need a gimp to kill you at typical "gimp" %s. In under 10 frames, if you hit her shield, you are susceptible to:

Frame 5 Dsmash
Frame 5 dtilt
Frame 6 Usmash
Frame 6-7 (can't remember the frame she leaves the ground) bair, which is phenomenally powerful
Frame 9-10 fair, same as above

Those are her most devastating options, and of course she has others. For a power character with below average mobility, she can get those hard hits off at an amazing speed. The problem isn't even sweetspotting the kicks or SDI or whatever people like to bring up. It's the fact that it's hard to train yourself to pick the best option when you shield something in a crazy short timeframe, because it's % dependent, character dependent (from their moveset to their size), and position dependent. Theoretically, her punishment game is incredible, and I think that's put into practice often enough.

She can't really force punishment on many characters, however, either by their nature or because players know what moves to use to prevent this from happening too often. And again, when you look at her moveset and the type of character she is, the developers knew that they had to throw some serious **** at her in order to balance her out. They made Farore's so laggy and impossible to move with because otherwise it'd probably be an incredible recovery option, seeing how you're invincible during travel. They made Din's go into freefall and give it like, what, nearly 60 frames of completion because they thought that they were making it ridiculously powerful (but it isn't, sadly). They made her grab so slow because they thought that the range on it was beastly, and while I think it is actually disjointed, we can clearly see how terrible it is overall. Seriously, I could live with the throws, but what hampers her the most is the grab.

Honestly, she has it great on paper, but what with how the metagame of Brawl has turned out, she's very lacking. Still, I think she makes a great CP character depending mostly on the player, not so much the character they're playing. Zelda has an excellent OoS game and she gives great reward for a read on your opponent. That's one of three reasons to play this character, the other two being to enhance Sheik's options and because you think she's awesome/pretty.


EDIT: Also, two things:

1) Zelda is disadvantaged against Ike.

2) Snakeee's a good player, and I think he's a solid Zelda, but even with playing Ryko, he might not've been playing with the shield. Honestly, unless I'm playing online, I'm basically tuned to lightning kicking whenever someone gets too comfortable around my shield, and that's basically how I keep up with better players. I am not amazing by any means, but that's why I play a character that can make almost all of her hits count. >_>


And lol, Din's Fire camping does not exist and has never been a standard of good Zelda play. Dunno why that is even a factor.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm sorry, I don't play, let alone study, any other competitive game or community other than smash.

 

[Inui]

Zelda thrives off of punishment. In fact, she has basically top-tier level punishment, because she doesn't need a gimp to kill you at typical "gimp" %s. In under 10 frames, if you hit her shield, you are susceptible to:

Frame 5 Dsmash
Frame 5 dtilt
Frame 6 Usmash
Frame 6-7 (can't remember the frame she leaves the ground) bair, which is phenomenally powerful
Frame 9-10 fair, same as above

Those are her most devastating options, and of course she has others. For a power character with below average mobility, she can get those hard hits off at an amazing speed. The problem isn't even sweetspotting the kicks or SDI or whatever people like to bring up. It's the fact that it's hard to train yourself to pick the best option when you shield something in a crazy short timeframe, because it's % dependent, character dependent (from their moveset to their size), and position dependent. Theoretically, her punishment game is incredible, and I think that's put into practice often enough.

She can't really force punishment on many characters, however, either by their nature or because players know what moves to use to prevent this from happening too often. And again, when you look at her moveset and the type of character she is, the developers knew that they had to throw some serious **** at her in order to balance her out. They made Farore's so laggy and impossible to move with because otherwise it'd probably be an incredible recovery option, seeing how you're invincible during travel. They made Din's go into freefall and give it like, what, nearly 60 frames of completion because they thought that they were making it ridiculously powerful (but it isn't, sadly). They made her grab so slow because they thought that the range on it was beastly, and while I think it is actually disjointed, we can clearly see how terrible it is overall. Seriously, I could live with the throws, but what hampers her the most is the grab.

Honestly, she has it great on paper, but what with how the metagame of Brawl has turned out, she's very lacking. Still, I think she makes a great CP character depending mostly on the player, not so much the character they're playing. Zelda has an excellent OoS game and she gives great reward for a read on your opponent. That's one of three reasons to play this character, the other two being to enhance Sheik's options and because you think she's awesome/pretty.

So how come Ike's f-air makes all of this worthless?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm sorry, I don't play, let alone study, any other competitive game or community other than smash.

You should.

lawl

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lovely]

The character is just plain helpless against anyone that knows how to get around her weak Din's Fire camping and deal with her smash attacks.

Oh, no wonder Zelda is no longer a challenge to deal with. I mean, if I can see just one Zelda that doesn't rely on Din's Fire camping and constant Up Smashes, that would be the first. At first I thought Zelda was better than Sheik in this game, but I guess I came up with that reply too soon. ;p

Hilde is the best character, dude. It's pretty much agreed upon by everyone at this point.

Xianghua is tons better than Hilde, and she's more fun to play.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>_>

Hilde's bread and butter combos are guaranteed ring-outs on stages that have them. If the stage has walls, well, can we say wall combo?

*doubles the .*

Smooth Criminal

 

[Inui]

Oh, no wonder Zelda is no longer a challenge to deal with. I mean, if I can see just one Zelda that doesn't rely on Din's Fire camping and constant Up Smashes, that would be the first. At first I thought Zelda was better than Sheik in this game, but I guess I came up with that reply too soon. ;p

Xianghua is tons better than Hilde, and she's more fun to play.

Um... Those are noob Zeldas. Even good ones can get ***** though, since she sucks. She's really limited. If you just know not to sidestep her u-smash, angle your shield properly against her smashes, etc., she's soooo easy. She also can't safely approach ever.

In SC3, yes. In SC4, she's not even top 5 anymore. I know what I'm talking about. My best friend is Rigel, and he's like top 20 in the nation and wins tournaments all the time. He's possibly the best with both Cassandra and Amy.

 

[Brinzy]

So how come Ike's f-air makes all of this worthless?

Because it's safe on block?

She can't really force punishment on many characters, however, either by their nature or because players know what moves to use to prevent this from happening too often.

 

[Inui]

Ok, she sucks, lol...

I'd say any character that can't ever approach or really attack safely just can't be used.

 

[Brinzy]

I think we've already acknowledge that she sucks.

 

[Lovely]

In SC3, yes. In SC4, she's not even top 5 anymore. I know what I'm talking about. My best friend is Rigel, and he's like top 20 in the nation and wins tournaments all the time. He's possibly the best with both Cassandra and Amy.

I pretty much know the character list. I was just teasing like I always do. ;p

Plus Xianghua is my main, so that's why. XD

 

[da K.I.D.]

More like no one in the USA is doing **** with Zelda in tournamebts to see just how good she really is.

Since you said the usa, i feel theneed to correct you
as far as i know Dark Musician is the best zelda he plays hawaii and as far as I know he struggles to get top 5.
in hawaii. no bash to them but i cant say they are the mecha of the meta...
zelda is badd

That's what Vidjo said about Peach when he first tried her. Same with the others that quit Peach and everyone saying Peach sucked and all. Look at her now compared to that time.

the difference is that in the beginning people said zelda and wolf are good and peach and sonic suck, and now everythings reverse so loooking at it that way, your implications are correct

1.Zelda sucks. I twostocked Snakeee's Zelda twice in tourny with Ike even after he said he knew how to fight Ike due to playing with Rykoshet. >_>;

2.The character is just plain helpless against anyone that knows how to get around her weak Din's Fire camping and deal with her smash attacks.

This post contains 2 truthful statements

Hilde is the best character, dude. It's pretty much agreed upon by everyone at this point.

lol get doom comboed

 

[Brinzy]

Actually, it seems that people just recently realized she sucks. Being placed so high in mid tier on the first tier list was pretty hilarious.

Regardless, most Zeldas shouldn't be too miffed about her. Learning Sheik will help push Zelda farther than she can go alone.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I agree fully

 

[Inui]

I thought she sucked really early on. It was after the summer of last year.

 

[Brinzy]

Well if you're looking to be called an exception... there you go?

Just about everyone who used her to a good extent in Melee knew from the start, lol. Being buffed in general doesn't mean much if key flaws about you never change. Of course, we still had "hope", I guess.

Dear god, so tired of Zelda talk. Let's move on...

So uh... how about Wolf and Lucario? What the hell is their deal?

 

[Zankoku]

Wolf sucks. Lucario is blue. Let's talk about Toon Link.

 

[Brinzy]

Why'd he not suck like the rest of his family? It's the design, I tell you.

On a more serious note, I like him. Not enough to play him, but I do like him. Seems like a good standalone character, not that I know much about him. I think that, unless there's a major shift in the metagame, he's in a great spot right now.

 

[Tristan_win]

Actually, it seems that people just recently realized she sucks. Being placed so high in mid tier on the first tier list was pretty hilarious.

Regardless, most Zeldas shouldn't be too miffed about her. Learning Sheik will help push Zelda farther than she can go alone.

The problem with learning sheik to be used with zelda is that because of zelda lacking attributes the only time it's really wise to switch to zelda is if you have a percentage lead so they will be force to approach but using zelda to kill wont be "necessary" until at least over 100%

 

[Brinzy]

Indeed, and somewhere earlier this evening I outlined that Zelda relies a lot more on Sheik than the other way around. Though, one match-up I actually go Z -> S is Ice Climbers, after one dies. Iunno, I just like jumping in and smacking around a lone Climber.

Random thought... you know the whole Down B joke in Melee? It's funny how that can apply to Brawl, too.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Wolf sucks. Lucario is blue. Let's talk about Toon Link.

Lol. Toon Link is under represented. He has weight issues, and most people play stupid when it's time to get the kill (Kill move spam), but he has good combos, can camp very well, has good recovery, and is a small target. IMO, more people need to play him, and learn to be patient for kills. His placing seems about right. Maybe a little higher. Bottom of A if he is lucky, top of B otherwise.

 

[adumbrodeus]

^Dedede? Snake? Falco? ROB?

Don't forget Marth.

Sure. She's got a lot of power, good priority, nice ways to end opponents early if she can force them to make mistakes, etc.

But, this is stuff we all know. This is what we *do*. Of course she isn't Ganon-bad, but that's mainly because of the few advantages she does have as opposed to characters like Ganon. It's not like I only say bad things about her. In fact, often times I'm saying good things about her. I'm not going to kid myself or anyone else, though.

Ganon's actually got some powerful stuff. Flamechoke (the auto-combos, the techchases and chainchoking), Uair (one of the best Uairs in the game), some powerful combos, ridiculously low kill percents, and other advantages. If you make a large enough mistake to actually let him get in, Ganon can obliterate you.

Unfortunately for Ganon, he's primarily defensive, but he's got nothing to force an approach with, a reasonable projectile would improve Ganon so much. Also, he's slow in every sense of the word. Finally, he's predictable.

Basically, he's got more then enough advantages to make mid, his disadvantages are just so cripling that they force him to bottom tier.

Zelda being bad is part of the reason nobody wants to use her.

Then why's there the Falcon representation (especially)? What about Ganondorf?

She gets played a lot less then other characters in about her position. I believe Peach and Jiggs suffer from this as well.

So how come Ike's f-air makes all of this worthless?

Part of the reason why Ike wins the match-up, Zelda can't punish the fair.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I thought she sucked really early on. It was after the summer of last year.

Oh yeah? Well I thought she sucked more really early on than you. So there!

 

[Inui]

People need to stop disagreeing with Ganondorf being the worst character.

I thought he was the worst character when I played on Japanese imports in February of 2008.

My opinion has not changed, even after becoming one of the best, if not the best, Ganondorf players in the world.

As I was learning how to use him, I started to think he might be better than Link and Captain Falcon and have some hope... But that quickly changed once I learned how to fight against Ganondorf as well. Almost all of his moves are slower than reaction time, nothing is safe on block in almost all cases, and he's very gimpable and easy to combo. He's simply hopeless. If any character camps him, including another Ganondorf that has the percent advantage, he will lose. There's no way around that.

He relies on his opponent being aggressive, an idiot, or both.

Also, Toon Link sucks.

 

[adumbrodeus]

People need to stop disagreeing with Ganondorf being the worst character.

I thought he was the worst character when I played on Japanese imports in February of 2008.

My opinion has not changed, even after becoming one of the best, if not the best, Ganondorf players in the world.

As I was learning how to use him, I started to think he might be better than Link and Captain Falcon and have some hope... But that quickly changed once I learned how to fight against Ganondorf as well. Almost all of his moves are slower than reaction time, nothing is safe on block in almost all cases, and he's very gimpable and easy to combo. He's simply hopeless. If any character camps him, including another Ganondorf that has the percent advantage, he will lose. There's no way around that.

He relies on his opponent being aggressive, an idiot, or both.

Also, Toon Link sucks.

...

If you got that from my post then you simply didn't read.

I said (condensed version) that Ganondorf has some amazing things about him, it's just that his disadvantages are so crippling that they turn him into an awful character anyway.


I'm not denying he's awful, just disagreeing with Successor of Raphael's reasons for why he is horrible, it's not because he lacks good things about him, it's just that his bad things are really that bad.

 

[Kinzer]

Then why's there the Falcon representation (especially)? What about Ganondorf?

...WHAT FALCON REPRESENTATION?!?

Also Ganondorf is bad... they may have players, but I'm pretty sure they all acknowledge Falcon/Dorf are bad characters, Zelda is not much better off.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

...WHAT FALCON REPRESENTATION?!?

Also Ganondorf is bad... they may have players, but I'm pretty sure they all acknowledge Falcon/Dorf are bad characters, Zelda is not much better off.

Who do you think would win in a stand off. Ganon, Solo IC, or Solomar?

 

[DMG]

Solo IC or Ganon. Solomar is BAD.

 

[Jupz]

Solomar can't kill all his got is tilts and nair. Imo Ganon would win. Although it would be close to solo IC because they could CG him a little

 

[Kewkky]

Solo IC or Ganon. Solomar is BAD.

I beg to differ, Solimar's fair>usmash is too good.