The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[DMG]

Thx DMG. Even though I probably don't agree with everything (probably a little fanboyism from me, or the fact that I play different and no one has had a good chance to play my way of playing Yoshi), there's alot of things I really agree with.

Well I'm no expert on Yoshi, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Yoshi mains had a few small disagreements with me lol.

 

[Brinzy]

Man, Yoshi potentially being higher than Zelda?

Dearest princess, what did you do to anger Sakurai? I bet he's allergic to the Triforce.

 

[Morrigan]

That's if Zelda keeps going down due to underrepresentation.

 

[DMG]

Yeah like I said I could see Yoshi going over Zelda if she were to drop; it would be more of Zelda being seen as bad than Yoshi being seen as definitely better than her I guess.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Man, Yoshi potentially being higher than Zelda?

Dearest princess, what did you do to anger Sakurai? I bet he's allergic to the Triforce.

I know... look at Zelda, Link and Ganon. It's terrible.

 

[bigman40]

Your style of Yoshi is completely different. When we meet up, if stroupes ever gets with it, I'm gonna have to try the way you play. It'd have my own twists, such as a lot more eggs. But, your style is so different it's almost like you're not fighting Yoshi. If that makes any sense.

Yeah. I'd be the first one to even show IRL how Yoshi could be played differently. Yoshi is still Yoshi though lol. Even with all the stuff I've tacked onto my Yoshi, his problems still get in my way.

Well I'm no expert on Yoshi, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Yoshi mains had a few small disagreements with me lol.

Heh. I just think that it's me that disagrees on very few parts. Only because of my style compared to every other Yoshi is extremely different.

Man, Yoshi potentially being higher than Zelda?

Dearest princess, what did you do to anger Sakurai? I bet he's allergic to the Triforce.

Yoshi didn't have much better. We've been ****ed for 2 whole games, so it's not like Sakurai wasn't playing favorites for Yoshi and the Triforce group.

 

[Brinzy]

If I'm not mistaken, Zelda is just about the least used character, or she was at least for a while. I remember some tournaments that had 100+ entrants and if two characters weren't used, they were PT and Zelda. A specific one that I can't think of had 150 entrants and every character represented except for Zelda (not even Sheik/Zelda).

I won't deny that she's got it raw in Smash brothers in general because she's a princess without the ability to float, so there's really not much you can do to her to make her extremely good without taking her out of character. However, she's pretty much NeverUsed.

Her metagame growth has been quite terrible, with only three ATs used for her, not even by everyone because of how situational they are... those three being using her momentum after getting launched to use a B move (like transforming and going super far up or w/e), canceling Farore's Wind on an edge for immediate control over her upon reappearance (which would actually make her far better if someone could memorize every single edge and what direction you need to jump, otherwise you kill yourself), and... well, this isn't an AT, but being able to lightning kick certain characters when they trip, which gives her a true combo with the most powerful aerials in the game.

However, even if we were to find out tons of great things about her to counterbalance her severe weaknesses, like being tall + light, being hella slow, having the worst approaches in the game, having THE worst grab game around (yes, worse than ZSS and Ganon and whoever else people like to nane), and amongst other things, she would still be horribly underused. It doesn't matter if they made 20 games of Smash Bros; she will always be a slow princess because that is how she was meant to be, and that's her downfall.

I believe the fact that she was doomed to struggle because of the type of character she is has been long accepted by basically the whole Zelda board. We understand that by playing this character, unless you're a specific Zelda player that we all love, there's really no chance in hell of placing without a secondary, and don't even mention winning. Sheik can help with placing, but that's really about it, unless you're just amazing. This is why we were shocked and overwhelmed with joy in the first tier list thread, when she was listed as upper mid, or just about that. It really brought together the board to think that we had a chance at winning. Of course, we knew she was never really "doomed to mid tier", as it was put. We knew (or at least I think we all knew...) that she was going to hit low tier sooner or later. We also knew that the most important thing was how she did with Sheik, as far as things like tier lists go.

We still love our princess, though. No matter how horrible she is as a character, we still enjoy our pretty hitboxes, our pretty animations, our humorous run, and most importantly, our lightning kicks. I can't imagine anyone there quitting her if she hit bottom tier because we simply love our character that much.

Not sure why I just rambled like hell out of nowhere, but yeah, I can't see her getting any more popular with anything short of a chaingrab. Ah well.

 

[tocador]

I know... look at Zelda, Link and Ganon. It's terrible.

*looks at Toon Link tier placement*

A, sakurai at least like the tri-force a bit!

 

[Brinzy]

Toon Link isn't part of the original Triforce! That is, the Triforce thing Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf did in Melee. It was like a high-five to failure seven years in advance.

 

[Frown]

I think Zelda is the most defensive character in the game.

Is that correct?

 

[AvariceX]

^Dedede? Snake? Falco? ROB?

 

[Brinzy]

Yes, one of. The only way you can win with Zelda is if you force your opponents to hit your shield, because aside from Fsmash, going on the blatant offensive unless you know you'll be ok is asking for death.

And that's another thing. The difference between her and those two is ridiculous. They have far more weight, for one. DDD has one of the best grabs in the game while Zelda has one of the worst grabs. Snake has some of the most ridiculous, synonymous with crazy, hitboxes and excellent trapping abilities, while Zelda's hitboxes are ridiculous, synonymous with pathetic, and she can't trap a slug with a ring of salt.

 

[tocador]

Toon Link isn't part of the original Triforce! That is, the Triforce thing Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf did in Melee. It was like a high-five to failure seven years in advance.

But in melee Young Link had TEH FIRA AROUZ!

I consider young link a "tri-force thingy". You know, his games like Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass are all cool and they all have ganon so its kinda like a "tri force club thingy".

 

[Brinzy]

It's only because he's young, so he gets to run around. Sheik would count in this category, but since it's really Zelda, she can't be B tier.

 

[MrEh]

The only way you can win with Zelda is if you're significantly skilled or your opponent is ********.

 

[Brinzy]

Well ****, we already picked Zelda, so there goes the win.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Don't you have anything positive to say? I mean if Zelda was really that bad she would be with ganon, but she isn't.

 

[Brinzy]

Sure. She's got a lot of power, good priority, nice ways to end opponents early if she can force them to make mistakes, etc.

But, this is stuff we all know. This is what we *do*. Of course she isn't Ganon-bad, but that's mainly because of the few advantages she does have as opposed to characters like Ganon. It's not like I only say bad things about her. In fact, often times I'm saying good things about her. I'm not going to kid myself or anyone else, though.

 

[MrEh]

The problem with Zelda is that she's very predictable. More so then many of the characters below her on the tier list.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Quite honestly, I can't see why Zelda is considered so horrible.

 

[ADHD]

Sonic sucks, bring 'em down. Falco isn't that great, bring 'em down. The rest is pretty good for the current metagame

 

[DMG]

Sonic sucks, bring 'em down. Falco isn't that great, bring 'em down. The rest is pretty good for the current metagame

RAWR I GON GO FALCO ON U SON! I RUN! YOU LOSE!


Lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sure. She's got a lot of power, good priority, nice ways to end opponents early if she can force them to make mistakes, etc.

But, this is stuff we all know. This is what we *do*.

Paragraphs of text to support the fail of Zelda. And a single sentence to deny it, there is something wrong with that xD

Have more people been using the Zelda/Shiek combos? Or Shiek more so?

 

[Brinzy]

Quite honestly, I can't see why Zelda is considered so horrible.

See above.

That's probably her biggest downfall, but really, there's not much you can do to fix it. Grab more with her? Maybe, until they punish it on reaction. Throw in some LKs here and there? If it works, wonderful, but you can't do that too many times because it'll get her killed.

As with any character, being a good player is the key to being a good Zelda. The thing about Zelda, however, is that she has nothing she can abuse which is good on on its own that an amateur could do it and create a solid game around it. She has Fsmash and Usmash, which are good, but her options are ridiculously limited.

 

[Brinzy]

Stupid double post.

Paragraphs of text to support the fail of Zelda. And a single sentence to deny it, there is something wrong with that xD

Have more people been using the Zelda/Shiek combos? Or Shiek more so?

lol, it took a while, but I've come to accept her fail as just something we love.

And I think it's been like...

Sheik using Zelda for the kill, which is the most common.

Then pure Sheik.

Then Zeldas trying to use Sheik (kinda like the first, but the first is a Sheik main and this is a Zelda main)

Then people trying to simply CP with one or the other for a match.

And then pure Zelda, which is the least common. I believe we have one pure Zelda in the whole country, and he's not even in the contiguous US.

 

[Collective of Bears]

And then pure Zelda, which is the least common. I believe we have one pure Zelda in the whole country, and he's not even in the contiguous US.

I know a pure Zelda, but she's not competitive.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco isn't that great, bring 'em down.

*stuffs a naner into your mouth* Bird's fine where he's at

Stupid double post.



lol, it took a while, but I've come to accept her fail as just something we love.

And I think it's been like...

Sheik using Zelda for the kill, which is the most common.

Then pure Sheik.

Then Zeldas trying to use Sheik (kinda like the first, but the first is a Sheik main and this is a Zelda main)

Then people trying to simply CP with one or the other for a match.

And then pure Zelda, which is the least common. I believe we have one pure Zelda in the whole country, and he's not even in the contiguous US.

And of them I guess Zelda has the worst success out fo all the combinations.

 

[Brinzy]

Basically, and Commander, what I mean is that I only know of one Zelda that plays only Zelda (no Down B) and actually places consistently. I'm sure there are plenty of pure Zeldas out there, but they're not placing too well, sadly.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm sure there are plenty of pure Zeldas out there, but they're not placing too well, sadly.

That's the case with a ton of people. Falco = 4th, but only a few actually use him well enough to place high. Also it seems that any person that has decent amount of skill eventually moves over to someone higher up. Although you run into a few people that do 180s. Sethlon a Falco main switched to shiek or ZSS last I remember.

 

[Brinzy]

lol, yeah, the whole moving up thing is the killer part with a lot of these characters. It's sad, but it is indeed the way these type of games work. : (

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol, yeah, the whole moving up thing is the killer part with a lot of these characters. It's sad, but it is indeed the way these type of games work. : (

I'm waiting for the time when someone will come along and rip the tourney scene apart with a character that is considered to not be tourney viable. xD Be funny to see.

 

[Brinzy]

Well, a long time ago, I was banking on PT. I guess I'll bank on Ness now.

 

[n88]

I would pick PT to rise out of low tier if I had to pick somebody. On another note, has anybody else noticed that the original 12 suck? On this list, characters introduced in Brawl had an average rank of 14, Melee characters 18, and the original 12 had an average of 26.

 

[kingcobra9]

every game they try to "even out" the game so they just make the old people suck worse

 

[DanGR]

I view Zelda as a character with a relatively strong defensive game and a good amount of usable attacks... had they been on a character with decent air speed, ground speed, and/or a good enough projectile to actually force any sort of committed approach.

I think that when her opponents figure out how to zone her correctly (or out-camp her) to point where she's either forced to go on the offensive or move around in order to maintain a good stage position (or get out of a bad one), her defensive game plan falls apart, and her true weaknesses begin to show. In short she's decently mobile, but relatively weak when she does move.

Also, I might add that very few characters are actually forced to run into her attacks... Poor word choice aside, I have an example. Even with how horrendous Captain Falcon is at approaching, and with how strong Zelda's defensive game is, he still has plenty of time to move/run around and figure out how the Zelda player will typically and most likely respond to a variety of different approaches. Not to say he has a good matchup against her. That'd be a ridiculous claim.

She's bottom-mid tier/top-low tier at best imo. Right now she really just needs more rep.

 

[Zankoku]

Why you're welcome.

Could I make one suggestion regarding the way you reported the results? Maybe include the standard deviations for the voting on each character as well (how many voters are there in the SBR?) so that we can see how much the voting on each character varied. I think it would be interesting to see which high/mid/low-tiered characters the SBR was more unanimous on, and which had votes all over the place.

You could run all other sorts of stats on it too, like an ANOVA to see which characters were "significantly" higher than others statistically, but your data is just an average of voter scores, which is pretty subjective anyway. At least with the standard deviations you'd get a baseline idea of how much discrepancy there was in the voting for any particular character.

Edit: I realized I just asked you to do more work when you already obviously have done quite a lot to put this together. I'd be willing to put the stats together and send them to you if you sent me the data.

Since the specifics are sworn to secrecy in the SBR unless the individual releases his own vote, I'll only give you the standard deviations you asked for. Prepare for a wall of text.

NOTE: This data is updated with votes that came AFTER the deadline for that section, so you might notice a few differences.

PART 1 (37 votes)
Character		Average	Std.Dev
Meta Knight		1	0
Snake			1	0
Wario			1	0
Diddy Kong		1.03	0.16
Falco			1.03	0.16
King Dedede		1.03	0.16
Mr. Game & Watch	1.03	0.16
Marth			1.08	0.28
R.O.B.			1.14	0.35
Olimar			1.16	0.37
Pikachu			1.19	0.4
Ice Climbers		1.35	0.48
Kirby			1.38	0.49
Lucario			1.59	0.6
Zero Suit Samus		1.81	0.4
Toon Link		1.86	0.35
Donkey Kong		1.95	0.4
Pit			1.95	0.33
Peach			2.05	0.23
Sheik			2.11	0.39
Wolf			2.14	0.35
Luigi			2.19	0.4
Fox			2.27	0.45
Zelda			2.35	0.48
Bowser			2.54	0.51
Sonic 			2.54	0.51
Ike			2.62	0.49
Pokémon Trainer		2.65	0.48
Lucas			2.86	0.35
Ness			2.86	0.35
Mario			2.89	0.31
Jigglypuff		2.95	0.23
Link			2.97	0.16
Yoshi			2.97	0.16
Captain Falcon		3	0
Ganondorf		3	0
Samus			3	0

PART 2 (40 votes)
Characters		Average	Stdev
Meta Knight		1.03	0.16
Snake			2.38	0.84
Wario			4.63	1.89
Falco			4.83	2.05
Diddy Kong		5.03	1.86
King Dedede		6.18	2.53
Marth			7.6	2.33
Mr. Game & Watch	8.7	2.11
Pikachu			9.1	2.28
Olimar			9.23	2.51
Ice Climbers		9.5	2.78
R.O.B.			10.85	1.9
Kirby			11.98	1.31

PART 3 (33 votes)
Character	Average	Stdev
Lucario		1.12	0.33
Zero Suit Samus	1.48	0.62
Toon Link	1.97	0.73
Pit		2.24	0.9
Donkey Kong	2.27	0.88
Peach		2.73	0.76
Luigi		3.15	1.06
Fox		3.45	1
Wolf		3.55	0.83
Sonic		3.61	1.09
Sheik		3.64	0.99
Bowser		4.15	0.8
Zelda		4.73	0.57

PART 5 (35 votes)
Character	Average	Stdev
Ike		1.29	0.46
Pokémon Trainer	1.29	0.75
Lucas 		1.77	0.65
Mario		1.89	0.76
Ness		1.91	0.78
Yoshi		1.97	0.66
Samus 		2.43	0.88
Jigglypuff	2.83	0.95
Captain Falcon	3.37	0.65
Link		3.43	0.74
Ganondorf	3.74	0.51

 

[Viperdev]

wario surpasses falco? 0_0

 

[kingdom-triforce]

First time seeing this.

Can't believe it. Ganon and Link and Wario... T_T

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's if Zelda keeps going down due to underrepresentation.

you mean if zelda goes down due to being a bad character

 

[Dark.Pch]

you mean if zelda goes down due to being a bad character

More like no one in the USA is doing **** with Zelda in tournamebts to see just how good she really is.