The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[DMG]

You sir, on the other hand, have won vast quantities of Internets for your clever fusion of two Pocket Monsters to create a Homophone of Meta Knight.

 

[Flayl]

Wow I've seen tons of pokemon fusions on this board and not once did I think to spell them out LMAO

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

not to toot my own character, but lucario has the potential to do it as well. Just sayin.

Now if LUCARIO wins a national tournament in the US on the other hand, I will go to a furcon and prance about, or whatever it is people actually do at those.

 

[<π]

so apparently a bunch of people have grab release infinites on wario... thoughts?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

so apparently a bunch of people have grab release infinites on wario... thoughts?

The grab release infinites are fairly useless. The only damage you get is through pummels. And people can escape during a pummel. Under 20% is escapeable by pretty much anyone that button mashes. After that you get maybe a single pummel per 50% against someone that button mashes still.

So this means at 50% you are pretty having to pummel once for 2%, sit through an air release animation and regrab again. Pummel one more time and repeat. It's an incredibly slow process to rack up damage and has lots of room for error. I wouldn't really count those grab release infinites has having much weight behind them.

At higher percents it's useful for getting that little bit of extra damage before you kill Wario. Say as Snake, wario is at 110%, air release infinite hime 2 or 3 times with 2-3 pummels in between and a single Uair should kill him.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

You know what else has lots of room for error? IC chaingrabs.

Are those fairly useless?

 

[<π]

snake can't do it though :/
I'm copying the list susa posted up found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240588

Gdorf
Standing grab
Ike
Piviot grab
Sheik
Piviot grab
Bowser
Standing grab
Sonic
Standing grab(needs to be on a ledge/stage specifics to force air release)
Yoshi
Standing grab
ZSS
Standing grab

citing difficulty as a reason something is unrealistic doesn't work.
Something like this being known and more widely taken advantage of could definitely change his match ups which in turn should lower his placing. How scary is it knowing characters with a bad grab range can infinite you... imagine characters with good range.
Getting pivot grabbed by gdorf and losing a stock ouch.

 

[-Mars-]

<3 I swear to God Wario can jump out of Sheiks......I need further testing though. If you happen to grab him out of his double jump then he's screwed for sure though.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Now if LUCARIO wins a national tournament in the US on the other hand, I will go to a furcon and prance about, or whatever it is people actually do at those.

I believe it involves going to panels and doing artwork or something like that.

 

[<π]

<3 I swear to God Wario can jump out of Sheiks......I need further testing though. If you happen to grab him out of his double jump then he's screwed for sure though.

honestly I'm having trouble doing it consitently but I can do it. like you mentioned though without his double jump he doesn't have any options that make the chain harder.

 

[Shaya]

Xeyblode, you're being a bit naive.

Infinite chain grab means x-300% stalling of the clock.
Thanks for reminding us it will take forever to get Wario to 300% and by that time the clock will be coming close to zero.

 

[<π]

infinite wario for the whole 8 minutes... that'll teach him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

snake can't do it though :/
I'm copying the list susa posted up found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240588

Gdorf
Standing grab
Ike
Piviot grab
Sheik
Piviot grab
Bowser
Standing grab
Sonic
Standing grab(needs to be on a ledge/stage specifics to force air release)
Yoshi
Standing grab
ZSS
Standing grab

citing difficulty as a reason something is unrealistic doesn't work.
Something like this being known and more widely taken advantage of could definitely change his match ups which in turn should lower his placing. How scary is it knowing characters with a bad grab range can infinite you... imagine characters with good range.
Getting pivot grabbed by gdorf and losing a stock ouch.

Last I heard, most characters can only re-grab Wario if they grab him when he doesn't have his mid-air jump (which means with any sort of thought, it shouldn't happen).

 

[<π]

I don't think they fall into the most category though.

 

[DanGR]

Guaranteed standing grab (or at least no forced forward/backward progress) air-release chaingrabs... if they're legit they ignore the 300% rule. If you're up in stock and/or percent you may as well continue the chaingrab for the rest of the game and win by timeout.

What keeps this legal? >.>

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Last I heard, most characters can only re-grab Wario if they grab him when he doesn't have his mid-air jump (which means with any sort of thought, it shouldn't happen).

I know Ike can regrab Wario while he still has his mid-air jump. It just requires basically frame perfect pivot grabbing constantly. Thats also assuming that the Wario doesn't manage to get a ground break part way though and punish Ike for attempting to pivot grab what he though would be an airborn Wario. Much better to just go for the free Utilt.

 

[<π]

Guaranteed standing grab (or at least no forced forward/backward progress) air-release chaingrabs... if they're legit they ignore the 300% rule. If you're up in stock and/or percent you may as well continue the chaingrab for the rest of the game and win by timeout.

What keeps this legal? >.>

I believe nothing in the current rule set.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If theres time for wario to jump out double jump out, why isnt there time for him to use his invincible down b move when he doesnt have a double jump?

 

[Espy Rose]

Last I heard, most characters can only re-grab Wario if they grab him when he doesn't have his mid-air jump (which means with any sort of thought, it shouldn't happen).

Grab Wario's who jump directly from the edge.

It's actually not THAT hard. [/gross exaggeration]

@KID: Wario's waft doesn't pop out fast enough. I've grabbed Wario's out of their wafts because it didn't come out early enough.

 

[<π]

super armor isn't invincibility.

Also, there isn't time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I thought the invincibility started on frame 1...
?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, he gets SAFs.

There is a difference.

Unless he does get invincibility frames, in which case it would only be on a fully charged waft. >_>

 

[Steeler]

You sir, on the other hand, have won vast quantities of Internets for your clever fusion of two Pocket Monsters to create a Homophone of Meta Knight.

dragogross?

 

[da K.I.D.]

No, he gets SAFs.

There is a difference.

Unless he does get invincibility frames, in which case it would only be on a fully charged waft. >_>

well since we are currently discussing infiniting wario and timing him out doing so, i thought it would be assumed to be a full 2 minute charge fart.

 

[Espy Rose]

Wario doesn't get invincibility on his Waft, charged or not.

It's just Super Armor. Super Armor =/= invincibility.

At least, that's what I thought...

 

[<π]

grabs beat super armor, but even if that wasn't the case these chain grabs, unless fubbed on the chain grabbers part shouldn't leave room for that kind of escape.

 

[tocador]

Fully charged waft has invicibility on the 2 first frames(or one frame).

But it has.

 

[-Mars-]

I think Sheik has a significant advantage on Wario. Discuss.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ive heard that before.

shiek can combo wario easily and has setups into her grab with jab and f tilt, something many many characters dont have.

wario only has 2 jumps, and if you throw a full needle storm at his landing, he cant NOT get hit by it, and thats automatic 15%

grab release into 30% kill move. so that takes away from one of shieks major weaknesses.

shieks limbs are longer than warios so she has priority over him.

but shiek is crap mobility in the air. so i think wario can manuver around her and get his aerials in well.

sheik is also fairly light, with out a top tier recovery, so wario should be able to kill her early from time to time.

doesnt her up tilt beat his dair? thats a major factor. as it shuts down warios best move.

i dont think chain is good in this matchup, as wario can probably AD through it. right?

is my info accurate? cus if Im seeing this right, i can see how shiek would beat wario, tho i dont think its enough of an advantage for me to want to pick up sheik just for that matchup. which is the idea i kinda got from mars' post

 

[smashkng]

Wario's Fully Charged Fart gets Super Armor from frame 5.

 

[St. Viers]

^^we know it has SAF--people were wondering about invincibility...

 

[DMG]

Oh dear lord...

First... Shiek vs Wario

55:45 Wario's Favor

Ftilt lock doesn't work on Wario very well.

Grab release to Usmash is nasty, you can SDI it into the weaker hits though to live longer than expected.

Wario can edgeguard her very well when done correctly.

Wario can somewhat scare her when she is stuck in the air.

Needles are JUST OK for this matchup. Expecting to use this perfectly when we have to land... not gonna happen.

Wario grab range better than hers.

Wario can grab release to fart on the edge (lol makes no sense, but works)

About Waft having invincibility... It's not been looked into fully. Dedede as many people know gets invincibility for a brief bit after he hits someone with Utilt. He flashes white when he does so. When Wario hits someone with a half fart at least, he flashes white (from the base, don't remember if he flashes after the hit while going up). There is a chance that he does have invincibility ONLY at this point, which is 5+ frames to get there. Airdodging would be 4 frames, therefore even if Wario could be invincible, airdodging would get there faster. If he cannot airdodge to escape an infinite grab, then he cannot try to get waft invincibility quicker than that.

Also, as Reflex said, a lot of these only work when Wario doesn't have a DJ. For Sonic/Shiek I believe, this is the case.

As for what to do about them when the situation comes up, I have elaborated in depth many times discussing why standing infinite grabs should be banned for time reasons. What people don't understand is how complex the situation is for both players when Wario+ other character is in that spot. Basically, Wario doesn't mash to stay in your grab longer, and the minute you pummel he mashes super hard to go for the escape. The ideal situation is kind of a stalemate where Wario cannot be infinited until over 50%, and past that the damage done is EXTREMELY SLOW.

It takes 50 frames for Wario to be grab released. At the very end of this usually is when he is regrabbed. This means that regardless of whatever time it takes Wario to get to that point, that every time he pops up into the air, it takes up almost a full second. Compact this with the time either player can waste in that situation, and the clock becomes slowly wound down.

Furthermore, who is going to be there to prevent the opponent from "empty" grab releases, where they have no intention of doing damage to Wario but just to hold him there to run out time? What if the person mixes it up to make it look like an accident when he grab releases you without pummeling? Who is gonna say what is too much/too little?

Basically, the standing grab release infinites on Wario are a super messy, complex, undesirable situation to occur in tournament. The best solution is to have a limit on consecutive regrabs, as this removes the problem of someone throwing out "empty" grabs or either player trying to stall, while allowing the player who got the grab to get extra free damage before throwing him/grab releasing him finally and getting a hit.

 

[Espy Rose]

Also, as Reflex said, a lot of these only work when Wario doesn't have a DJ. For Sonic/Shiek I believe, this is the case.

I believe Sonic can grab him even with his second jump, but I'm not entirely sure. If he can, it involves buffering the grab.

But you are correct in that Sonic definitely only has a grab release infinite on Wario when he's exhausted his double jump, and has Wario either off the ledge or on an elevation that allows Sonic to force the air release (Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1, and YI:B, mostly).

 

[da K.I.D.]

sheiks up smash only has two hits, if your SDIing INTO the weaker hits, you just giving yourself damage, whereas if you can SDI its better to sdi OUT of the second hit

 

[DMG]

Only two hits? Incorrect sir.

SDIing yourself into the weaker hits slows your flight path down a bit when you finally get sent flying. If you get hit only by the tipper/strong part, you are sent flying away and it's nasty. If you get hit by the lower/ending parts, you do not fly as far even if you were also hit by the first strong hit.

I have shown Light this, and demonstrated to him various things you can do to her Usmash to live longer.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you are correct, about the tipper thing, i did forget this. but then if you do DI into the up smash it does way more damage....

 

[Ripple]

isn't sheiks up-smash just like bowser fortress and MK's nair then?

I've noticed that fortress is broken if you don't get hit by that second hit to slow you down

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea, its actually just like that.

 

[-Mars-]

Ive heard that before.

shiek can combo wario easily and has setups into her grab with jab and f tilt, something many many characters dont have.

wario only has 2 jumps, and if you throw a full needle storm at his landing, he cant NOT get hit by it, and thats automatic 15%

grab release into 30% kill move. so that takes away from one of shieks major weaknesses.

shieks limbs are longer than warios so she has priority over him.

but shiek is crap mobility in the air. so i think wario can manuver around her and get his aerials in well.

sheik is also fairly light, with out a top tier recovery, so wario should be able to kill her early from time to time.

doesnt her up tilt beat his dair? thats a major factor. as it shuts down warios best move.

i dont think chain is good in this matchup, as wario can probably AD through it. right?

is my info accurate? cus if Im seeing this right, i can see how shiek would beat wario, tho i dont think its enough of an advantage for me to want to pick up sheik just for that matchup. which is the idea i kinda got from mars' post

This post is pretty correct from what I can tell except the chain part. He could AD through the chain with his ridiculous airdodge but you can cover his landing with the chain......the main thing that scares me about using it against Wario is him wafting me while i'm in the chain. I would probably use the chain as more of a poke instead of just retardedly sitting there with it out for a minute.

Sheik's recovery does blow though....there is no denying this.

When I said significant advantage...i meant a 6-4...not a hard counter or anything. but it might be worthwhile for you to pick her up for this matchup due to Wario's not having much experience against her.

I think Sheik does better against MK and Wario then she does against characters like Snake, Diddy, and Lucario lol.

To sum up this random and confusing post things I think pushes the MU in Sheiks favor.

Setups into her grab that kill Wario at ridiculous percents....with setups into her grab. Her being ridiculously fast with her frame data means it isn't out of the question for her to land a grab.

Wario has difficulty with the chain. Doesn't matter what Wario players say, a character without a long ranged move has enormous difficulty dealing with it if properly used.

Sheik has the infinite on Wario..... hard to pull off but it is there meaning Wario getting grabbed by Sheik is terrible for im.

Like you said Sheik beats Wario in the air, so good spacing can nullify a lot of Wario's game.

Sheik has the second fastest jump in the game....which helps when fighting an aerial character such as Wario.

 

[ShadowLink84]

shieks limbs are longer than warios so she has priority over him.

You are very off.
The length of your limbs is not an indication of priority.
On the ground its damage
In terms of aerials, its in regards to hurtbox/hitbox ratio.

It is why Falcon has such terrible priority even though he extends his legs so much during the Uair.

It is also why Ganondorf's Fair was useful in beating out Marth's Fair in melee.

Speed is also an important factor because a move with tons of priority but poor start up loses its ability to break stuff.

Of course its meaningless since you have me on ignore but, at least other people won't be as ignorant as you.