Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Not really, no.lol, 2nd is the first loser
if youre not first, your last
those stupid quotes are actually almost applicable to brawl hahaha
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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Umby
Smash Master
We need a Ricky Bobby texture hack on Captain Falcon now.lol, 2nd is the first loser
if youre not first, your last
those stupid quotes are actually almost applicable to brawl hahaha
Or do we already have one of those?
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
lucas is VERY good. hes been deserving mid tier since the beginning fo smash. Hes one of those characters in low tier 1vs1 that u jusy go "wtf? why is he here? hes too good"
you have to be the most ******** kid alive.
rob will NEVER be above snake. He has WAY too many weaknesses that CANNOT be over come
-Soldier-
Smash Rookie
No, Lucas isn't that good. For a number of reasons, but he isn't exactly Bottom Tier, either.
thespymachine
Smash Ace
Ha ha. I was just posting a list of averaged out match-up ratios. That list was not what I think the tier list should be.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,638
Mario is a solid character, but he just isn't showing in tourneys; while tourney results aren't everything, without even that there's little reason for Mario to move up.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I don't like Mario. He always makes me think of Melee and then I get sad Cause I really like him in Melee. Doc rather.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Doc was the ****. I miss the reverse spike fair :[
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I played Doctor Mario merely for the sound effects of the pills.
§leepy God
Smash Master
♫ Strange that I'm not one of those people, I used Dr. Mario on Melee in almost every tourney I've been to. But sadly, I have never really played regular Mario on any Smashbros game. ☼
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Zelda's worst fights:
G&W (in theory though, because in practice it's a lot easier)
Snake (both in theory and in practice)
MK (mostly in theory, but still kinda bad)
Zelda's disadvantageous fights for characters that you actually see:
Olimar
Marth
Wario
Due to the popularity of all of these characters put together and Zelda's low tournament representation, she does not place very often at all. However, to answer your question, Sheik would be better against all of these characters except possibly MK, but that's mostly my own opinion. Do note that I have always believed that Sheik is a better character than Zelda. However, she does a lot better (as opposed to those listed above) against:
Falco
Diddy
R.O.B.
DDD
ICs
Pikachu
basically all mid tiers with the worst ones being 45:55
Her match-ups overall are poor when viewed alone, but mediocre to decent when compared to everyone else.
Your comparison of Sonic and DK to Z/S is flawed. Z/S are linked by a Down B. The only other character linked by a real input is PT. Sonic and DK are not linked. It may be counterpicking, but they are still linked by a move no matter how people want to try and marginalize it. It's not a good argument for Zelda's sole placement on the tier list, but it DOES make a difference for her placements, end of. It doesn't matter if it carries Zelda or not.
Din's is a poor projectile and Nayru's is a poor reflector. They do, however:
- help force campy Robs to approach (and I don't care if people think otherwise, because it's the truth)
- force DDD to approach and force a few others to at least a standstill (Pikachu and some mid tiers, off the top of my head)
- help alleviate, from a little to significantly, spam from Toon Link, Link, Falco, Ice Climbers, Fox, Wolf, Samus, Ness, Lucas, Pit and Sheik, though admittedly a lot of this is really good prediction and timing from Zelda. Realize that stage decision may be all it takes to help Zelda with projectile characters
- give her options for adding on damage safely against a recovering opponent or a gliding opponent and provide a decent attack for up close
Are they burdens? This cannot be answered because we don't know what other B moves she could've had. Do they help at all? Why, yes, yes they do.
Zelda has a bad approach. However, if Zelda outranges and/or outprioritizes the opponent (which is not uncommon at all, considering her pretty good range and her disjointed attacks), she may just need to get in range of them and start doing better up close. I've never been wrecked by people running away from me, but that's personal experience and I'll just call myself a horrible, terrible player, since that's what seems to count around here. Zelda pressures very well with Fsmash, which is safe on block, and shielded Din's is not punished by anything but a quick projectile, unless it is at pointblank range.
Zelda is amazing at defense. By "amazing", we don't mean she can simply put more attacks to use. We mean she has some of the best punishing options in the game. Two aerials that are insanely powerful. A tie for the quickest smash attack that also sends at a hellish angle. A very quick smash attack that boasts insane priority. An extremely good tilt that trips, locks, and sets up. A few other options in case you need to just build up damage on an opponent with low damage. The best part is that she doesn't need to be winning to go on the defensive. If she's outranging/outprioritizing (again, not uncommon), that means she just has to shield an attack and follow-up. Being able to place a lot of faith into your shield in order to actually do some deadly things to your opponents = a very good thing. Also, aside from utilt, ftilt, and normal shielded dtilt/Dsmash/Usmash, she's not really vulnerable for so long that a miss = screwed.
To place her on the same level as Ness, Lucas, Samus, etc. is to completely undermine her abilities.
Kinzer
Mammy
Ness seems to be up there for now anyway... top of low tier seems reasonable for him. I think Zelda should be here though, am I wrong? She's not as bad as say the 6th worst character (IMO that's above PowerSuit Samus), but she isn't exactly an impressive enough of a character to still keep her above mid tier... let alone keep her above her counterpart Sheik...
Let's look at one reason why Samus is not good shall we? She has projectiles... so it would alleviate not having one at all and in a game where the defender is usually at an advantage, this helps her right...? Eh... not so much when her projectiles are just... bad. Not even her Charge Shot will kill people, and doesn't this just look like a move that is suppose to make people fly off the screen and into the blastzone? Such a shame that it takes quite some charge and that it's not hard to block. What about a smash (not the homing) missile? Again for such a powerful weapon, it's rather easy to see coming, block, and even if it hits it still won't kill unless some opponent got hit by it offstage.
Samus might as well have either something else or not so much of a nerfing or such bad tools, because for a game where she should be doing stellar, she isn't. These things only help so much and to an extent before it just won't do anything for her. This is why I also believe that Zelda is not so great when it comes to this because they can only be maximized so much.
Wouldn't you agree that Zelda is going to take a considerable drop regardless (or at least she isn't going to stay or go up I'll tell you that much is right...)? How much exactly... eh well where is she now, bottom of mid-tier...? Nah, I just went back to check and she is at the top of E tier... so if we compared that to say the old method where I put SS/S/A/B - C/D/E - F/G tiers as top/high - Mid/Low - Very Low/Bot tier, that makes her... better than 15 (not including all the Pokeymanz for PT) characters, so a little bit under better than 1/2 the roster?! -_- :/ :\
...I guess I'll acknowledge all your other points, I believe you to be right on some and for the rest... well either I don't know how to address/refute it, or I don't want to make a fool of myself because I'm no expert on solo Zelda.
Also It doesn't help that I play one of the few (or only) character(s) that has enough speed to punish any lag lag in any character, so I might be a bit extreme when I say Zelda leaves herself very open on her attacks... Tell me something, I bet Zelda has a nice MU against D3 regardless of his Waddles/Tilts/grab game, huh?
Let's look at one reason why Samus is not good shall we? She has projectiles... so it would alleviate not having one at all and in a game where the defender is usually at an advantage, this helps her right...? Eh... not so much when her projectiles are just... bad. Not even her Charge Shot will kill people, and doesn't this just look like a move that is suppose to make people fly off the screen and into the blastzone? Such a shame that it takes quite some charge and that it's not hard to block. What about a smash (not the homing) missile? Again for such a powerful weapon, it's rather easy to see coming, block, and even if it hits it still won't kill unless some opponent got hit by it offstage.
Samus might as well have either something else or not so much of a nerfing or such bad tools, because for a game where she should be doing stellar, she isn't. These things only help so much and to an extent before it just won't do anything for her. This is why I also believe that Zelda is not so great when it comes to this because they can only be maximized so much.
Wouldn't you agree that Zelda is going to take a considerable drop regardless (or at least she isn't going to stay or go up I'll tell you that much is right...)? How much exactly... eh well where is she now, bottom of mid-tier...? Nah, I just went back to check and she is at the top of E tier... so if we compared that to say the old method where I put SS/S/A/B - C/D/E - F/G tiers as top/high - Mid/Low - Very Low/Bot tier, that makes her... better than 15 (not including all the Pokeymanz for PT) characters, so a little bit under better than 1/2 the roster?! -_- :/ :\
...I guess I'll acknowledge all your other points, I believe you to be right on some and for the rest... well either I don't know how to address/refute it, or I don't want to make a fool of myself because I'm no expert on solo Zelda.
Also It doesn't help that I play one of the few (or only) character(s) that has enough speed to punish any lag lag in any character, so I might be a bit extreme when I say Zelda leaves herself very open on her attacks... Tell me something, I bet Zelda has a nice MU against D3 regardless of his Waddles/Tilts/grab game, huh?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Agreeing with Xyro about Lucas. He's mid tier.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
The point is that Zelda > Ness, and Ness is probably top of low anyway.
Having a way to force your opponents to approach (and you need to account for zair) > not having a way to force them to approach. Projectiles don't have to kill or set up edgeguards to be effective. They're just that - ways to inflict damage from a distance. I don't believe that Samus's projectiles are what hold her back.
This is true, but there are few moves that are complete detriments to a character's success, and Din's and Nayru's are not the type of moves to be detriments because it is completely possible to use Din's safely and to use Nayru's to reflect properly. Also, I wish people wouldn't judge Nayru's SOLELY on its ability to reflect.
Zelda, in my opinion, isn't dropping massively, and I mean to F/Low tier, because she doesn't have many characters below her. Zelda, at worst, is at top of low. I don't really care where she ends up at the end of the day, but I do care when she's compared to bottom tiers.
Not sure what tone I should be interpreting that last bit as. Zelda does well against DDD, especially in comparison to most of the cast (and note that a lot of them are made nonviable by this character).
- Din's passes through Waddles, and if you get caught off guard by a Gordo and you're not in lag, Nayru's reflects them safely. DDD is forced to approach.
- His longest attack is ftilt, and there's enough lag behind it to PS -> fair, at least. Fsmash is Fsmash, and the rest are decent but definitely not trouncing Zelda's ground game.
- His aerials are also good, but they are compromised by Zelda's except when he's below her. His bair trades with lightning kicks, his fair is outranged by lightning kicks, his dair can be uair'd (when it isn't hopped off the ground), and his nair is stupid to use against her. He's also a huge target to get lightning kicked, and lightning kicks are what put him away earlier than most everyone else can say against DDD.
- His grabs are good, but at the very least, Zelda does not get chaingrabbed. He's effective with his grab, but he has this on EVERYONE that isn't the ICs and then Zelda takes it father by not getting chaingrabbed.
Really, the selling points to this match-up are that Zelda's infamously useless airgame becomes decently useful against DDD and she is not forced to approach.
Shadow13
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 27, 2009
- Messages
- 349
Gannon should be, slow as crap and his attacks are more predictableCaptain Awesome still lowest
if meta knight and snake are good enough to get they're own tiers, then gannon should be bad enough to get his own bottom tier
Shadow13
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 27, 2009
- Messages
- 349
still think it is funny that sonic sucks so bad, you would think that sega would be pissed that there mascot is a ***** in brawl
Shadow13
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 27, 2009
- Messages
- 349
wtf are you talking about?Although MK and Snake really don't need to be separate tiers, this list is looking better tan the first.
Good Job!
DK fell 4 places, and is somehow behind kirby
toonlink should be way higher, and ike has better range and can own a meta knight easy
just watching online battles can show you that
Kinzer
Mammy
He's quoting posts from the first 3 pages of this thread.
huhahahahahaha!
I also find it funny that Wi-Fi is good for anything besides getting people mad.
Ike sucks... or is still low-mid/ top-low at least.
Also hopefully only trolls still say Sonic sucks, because if he does then the people who lose to him are worse.
huhahahahahaha!
I also find it funny that Wi-Fi is good for anything besides getting people mad.
Ike sucks... or is still low-mid/ top-low at least.
Also hopefully only trolls still say Sonic sucks, because if he does then the people who lose to him are worse.
§leepy God
Smash Master
♫ Of course Ike beat's Meta Knight. Every Meta Knight plays the same, spam Whorenado and Down Smash to the point you just knock them out with Ike's hax sword and three stock them.
☼
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
he doesn't afraid of anything 2!
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
AND HE'S FASTER THAN MK!
lol
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
That's not hard, especially when it comes to horizontal aerial speed... Meta Knight is like among the worst characters for that, what was it? 5th worst or something. I know for sure Dedede has the worst but Meta Knight is pretty bad too on that.
Also, his movement speed in general is not too awesome, anyway.
professor mgw
Smash Champion
hmmm, i wonder why samus is so low.... she's much better than falco, olimar i also want to rise up.
Frown
poekmon
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Samus isnt the worst character in the game....Metaknight is. LOL.
Right...
Right...
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Better character: Link or Jiggz.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
Samus isnt the worst character in the game....FALCON is. LOL.
Right...
now it's fixed
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
No, Falcon isn't the worst character in the game, I'm very sorry to break these news to you. Ganon is quite clearly the worst.
M.K
Level 55
Meh, we just need a huge dumpster to put them all in.
Does it honestly matter who is 37th on the tier list compared to who is 36th? It's easy to see that neither of them are tournament viable, so....*runs away*
Does it honestly matter who is 37th on the tier list compared to who is 36th? It's easy to see that neither of them are tournament viable, so....*runs away*
Frown
poekmon
Does it matter where ANY characters place on the tier list? No. We discuss this topic because we like it and because we're geeks.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Win quote is win.
And Falcon > Ganondorf. At least Falcon can attempt to run away for a whole match if he gets a % lead. Ganondorf can't do that much even. >_>
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
eh to me it seems like falcon would be the worst but im not in the SBR if falcon turns out to be better than ganon then i guess that's the way it is. I still think he's the worst character and that's what i think but i don't use either of them so whatever.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
I can't really say if Falcon is over Ganon or vice versa. I honestly think Ganon is SLIGHTLY better for killpower, Flame Choke, and Dair.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Falcon has quite some untapped potential, and despite his horrible priority, is still not as bad as Ganondorf.
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