The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Browny]

How is Wario better than Diddy? I'm just asking, because overall I thought Diddy seems like a better choice for 3rd, he gets on a roll and its game over. Wario gets on a roll it becomes a hard battle but it is far easier to get back in, it just seems Diddy has the potential to dominate a game better. Maybe its just because I face no good Warios.

Warios survivability and KO potential are both just so much greater than diddys lol. honestly, wario can probably deal around 30% less on the enemy each stock and go even with the while diddy has to do 40-60% extra if youre against someone like snake

 

[Flayl]

I think Bowser is vastly overrated. Yes, he has grab releases and some potential against Meta-Knight, but NOBODY is placing with him ANYWHERE. Even the Bowser mains are switching to different characters.

Bowser should not be grouped with Fox, Zelda, and Luigi, he's just not THAT good. Contrarily, I believe Pokemon Trainer is proving his worth with increased tournament results. His problem is not mediocrity, but rather it is that almost nobody has mastered all three Pokemon. Those that do, however, do very well.

Bowser is a character that is on the lower end of mid tier. That means he's not going to win big tournaments on his own by any means. But he is too good for low tier tournaments.

Add that to the fact that he's nowhere as straight forward as luigi or ike, and you got a character nobody is willing to play.

 

[phi1ny3]

Bowser is crazy, we have one in our area who can beat all but the best D3 in WA (and even then it's pretty close). Wario has a 60:40: marth. But other than that, pretty good overall.

 

[Red Arremer]

Wario has a 60:40: marth. But other than that, pretty good overall.

Really? You took that from the Marth boards, right?

I can only repeat myself: Take the Marth boards' stuff with a grain of salt. They have a very unique way of determining matchups. Not to discredit Marth users and their character boards, but... eh.

 

[phi1ny3]

Really? You took that from the Marth boards, right?

I can only repeat myself: Take the Marth boards' stuff with a grain of salt. They have a very unique way of determining matchups. Not to discredit Marth users and their character boards, but... eh.

Actually, I looked at the Wario boards as well (both morphed's and DMG's), they say about 60:40 marth, one even said arguably 65:35.
But yeah, I know Wario's power, we have a really good one in OR.

 

[Red Arremer]

Hm yea... Marth's disjointed hitboxes and long range, as well as just as good aerial game are a ***** for Wario, I guess. I hate Marth.

 

[phi1ny3]

I really do like lucario vs. wario match. Lucario already has a poor grab range, so no real use trying to get a grab on wario, plus allows for a more defensive capitalization (plus its near even).
Still, wario is just crazy, I think he has more potential than diddy (but if wario, diddy, and zss are going to move up because of good matchups vs. Mk, snake, etc. marth will move up too).
btw, I haven't seen you at the lucario boards, did you decide not to pick him up afterall?

 

[Red Arremer]

btw, I haven't seen you at the lucario boards, did you decide not to pick him up afterall?

Heh, he remembers me. Cute. <3

In all honesty, I don't know if I'd be a competent Lucario. I LOVE playing as him, and I love watching people like Lee Martin and Azen using him, but I have my doubts about myself. XD

I first wanna become a good player in general before deciding on another character but Bowser.

 

[.Marik]

In all honesty, I don't know if I'd be a competent Lucario. I LOVE playing as him, and I love watching people like Lee Martin and Azen using him, but I have my doubts about myself. XD

I think I may have the same problem with Fox. In all honesty, I thought he would have better matchups, and be somewhat higher on the Tier List, but Fox is so fun to play as...

I'm never, ever, ever going to drop Yoshi as my main though. But I am considering picking up Fox as a secondary.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Really? You took that from the Marth boards, right?

I can only repeat myself: Take the Marth boards' stuff with a grain of salt. They have a very unique way of determining matchups. Not to discredit Marth users and their character boards, but... eh.

You mean the best way in which a characters best strats, pros and cons are taken into account? Yeah, I'm trying to start **** btw. Please take the bait.

 

[Red Arremer]

You mean the best way in which a characters best strats, pros and cons are taken into account? Yeah, I'm trying to start **** btw. Please take the bait.

Aw. I was waiting for someone to go for that line.

The (other) characters' pros/cons are what Marth mainers say. Considering every Marth mainer will say, for example, that Bowser is slow, your cons are already flawed. There, I said it. I'm not gonna argue more than this, though. Feel free to PM bomb me or whatever, I don't care. I just don't see the Marth boards' determination of matchups as a very good way, because matchups can be insanely situational.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If I say Bowser is slow I could be talking about many different things. How would you determine match-ups then? BTW it's not how the Marth community determines match-ups. Its how every fighting game community determines match-ups.

 

[Red Arremer]

If I say Bowser is slow I could be talking about many different things. How would you determine match-ups then? BTW it's not how the Marth community determines match-ups. Its how every fighting game community determines match-ups.

Smash is not a usual fighting game, though, because it doesn't have the goal to drain the opponent's life bar.

To answer your question:
I take the respective characters' players, and let them compare the different strategies these characters have, and how the opponent would react to it. I, of course, would take pros and cons into account, but more on how they affect the strategies.
For example, something basic; if your character is light, a character with great killing power won't have much trouble KOing you. If your character is heavy, though, the great killing power does of course matter, but not until a far bigger percentages.

As an example - to stay with Bowser because I know the most about him: Despite the fact Falco can CG him, has lasers (especially on his huge fat butt) and what not, Bowser has two big things he can counter Falco with: he can CG twice as hard and he absolutely WRECKS Falco's recovery. As soon as Falco is offstage, he's dead. That isn't anything that can be determined by pros and cons, that is a thing dependant on the actual matchup and strategy. That's why people from the two responsive character boards discuss about the matchup.

As for Bowser's slowness: Did you know Bowser's mobility both on the ground and in the air is better than Snake's? Did you know his attack speed is greatly comparable to Snake's? Just asking to make sure...

 

[Frown]

Bowser's edgeguarding capabilities for top tier.

 

[Red Arremer]

Bowser's edgeguarding capabilities for top tier.

Fun fact: His edgeguarding isn't really that effective against many characters. The spacies suffer the most from it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The main thing that determines match-ups are the tools each character possesses and how much of an advantage one characters tools give over another character. If a character has a move or trait that shuts a character down then its a bad match-up. Who cares about life bars? It's all about the tools followed by pros and cons. A characters tools are the baseline for all their strategies.

Bowser is a mediocre character overall despite an amazing defensive game and pretty much the best grab release combo s in the game? Why? Because other characters have better tools and better traits.

 

[Kage Me]

In all honesty, I don't know if I'd be a competent Lucario. I LOVE playing as him, and I love watching people like Lee Martin and Azen using him, but I have my doubts about myself. XD

Don't worry, Lucario is ridiculously easy to play. I started maining him a few weeks back. When I watched an Azen video, it was eerie... His playstyle is very similar to mine.

What I'm trying to say is that Lucario skill just kinda develops naturally.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Bowser is a character that is on the lower end of mid tier. That means he's not going to win big tournaments on his own by any means. But he is too good for low tier tournaments.

Add that to the fact that he's nowhere as straight forward as luigi or ike, and you got a character nobody is willing to play.

At least not with D3 around. The same can be said for DK.


Yes, many of the great PT players are only exceptional with 1 or 2 pokemon.
If somehow we can tap into all of them..........

The way I see Marth, he is top 5, At least how the Marth boards display it.

 

[Bowser King]

Bowser is a mediocre character overall despite an amazing defensive game and pretty much the best grab release combo s in the game? Why? Because other characters have better tools and better traits.

Ummm...why are we discussing bowser?

Spade only brought up bowsers capabilities and how marth boards only take pros and cons of bowser (and some flawed into account). He mentioned nothing about bowser as a character (only the matchups and the misunderstanding of bowser being slow).

As for having better tools and traits, I agree. That's why he's the bottom of mid tier. The chars below him don't have better traits and abilities. I'd be willing to argue that against any char other then shiek and possibly ike. The only thing bowser lacks is tourney results, and even then the few people that do play bowser rank really well. What does that show? Bowser doesn't have trouble ranking (other then D3 and Ic's, a reason why most bowser players have a secondary). We just lack players for various reasons.

- Bowser King

 

[Bellioes]

And thats also part of the reason why MKs win so many tournies. If like half the people in a 30 person tournament main MK, one is definitely bound to win. Its not just being good thats letting him win so many tournies; he also has a large number of players using him.

 

[Kinzer]

Right, because if 30 of said character were in a tourney, one of them is bound to win too.

No, some characters are just better, MK is the best example to use.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

And thats also part of the reason why MKs win so many tournies. If like half the people in a 30 person tournament main MK, one is definitely bound to win. Its not just being good thats letting him win so many tournies; he also has a large number of players using him.

However it is just being good that's giving him such a large number of players using him.

 

[Red Arremer]

The main thing that determines match-ups are the tools each character possesses and how much of an advantage one characters tools give over another character. If a character has a move or trait that shuts a character down then its a bad match-up. Who cares about life bars? It's all about the tools followed by pros and cons. A characters tools are the baseline for all their strategies.

A character, however, can have an oddly surprising advantage over one character that is not mentioned among his pros or cons. That is why I brought up Bowser wrecking Falco's recovery with Fire Breath. That's something he doesn't have on many characters, thus making it a "pro" in this special case.
The same could be said about Wolf's Blaster slaughtering Olimar's Pikmin, or Zero Suit Samus' infinite on ROB.

It's not only character traits that have to be compared to create a correct matchup, it's also needed to compare what the character has in that special matchup against the other one, because matchups are situational. If it was easy like that, one could take the tier list as matchup guide, because MK would be the character with the most pros and Falcon the character with the least. Matchups have to be discussed indepth, and not only make comparisons between stats, that's the reason why they are discussed in the first place. Especially if you have wrong information.

 

[Darknid]

flame breath ***** a lot of recoveries. Basically anything that involves grabbing the ledge.

 

[thesage]

Meta Knight 15.00

S Tier
Snake 13.91

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50

Which character(s) do the Marth boards claim Marth is better than? I'm interested, I don't really care about tiers that much.

 

[Red Arremer]

flame breath ***** a lot of recoveries. Basically anything that involves grabbing the ledge.

It can be useful, but it's not ******. In fact, the only characters who probably are being ***** by it are the spacies.

 

[Jigglymaster]

This is what I belive to be a good tier list.

SS Tier- Meta Knight
S Tier- Snake
A Tier- Marth, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Falco, Mr. Game & Watch
B Tier- Wario, Lucario, R.O.B., Olimar
C Tier- Pikachu, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus,
D Tier- Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Pit, Peach, Wolf
E Tier- Luigi, Sonic, Bowser, Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Ike
F Tier- Jigglypuff, Ness, Yoshi, Mario, Lucas, Pokémon Trainer,
G Tier- Samus, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link

Sonic shouldn't be low tier anymore and Jigglypuff is the best of the low tier. Link is the worst imo and Marth and Diddy have been doing better than G&W, DDD, and Falco. Ness is better than Lucas, Yoshi is Better than Mario. Lucario is better than Rob, and ZSS is better than IC.

 

[Iwan]

This is what I belive to be a good tier list.

SS Tier- Meta Knight
S Tier- Snake
A Tier- Marth, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Falco, Mr. Game & Watch
B Tier- Wario, Lucario, R.O.B., Olimar
C Tier- Pikachu, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus,
D Tier- Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Pit, Peach, Wolf
E Tier- Luigi, Sonic, Bowser, Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Ike
F Tier- Jigglypuff, Ness, Yoshi, Mario, Lucas, Pokémon Trainer,
G Tier- Samus, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link

Sonic shouldn't be low tier anymore and Jigglypuff is the best of the low tier. Link is the worst imo and Marth and Diddy have been doing better than G&W, DDD, and Falco. Ness is better than Lucas, Yoshi is Better than Mario. Lucario is better than Rob, and ZSS is better than IC.

I can agree with this I guess, although I DO think falco has more going for him than marth; an awesome projectile, a chain grab, good options and speed (or, at least more so than marth imo).

I also definitely agree that link is quite possibly worse than falcon. Heck, ganondorf, a character I used to think was better than falcon, has me thinking he could be worse than falcon. Going back to falcon after months and months and months of using peach and snake makes me realize that falcon isn't as bad as so many people say he is; he has the best "boxing game" (as kadaj would say) in the entire game, the best jab>>jab>>grab (better than peach's, among others), nair cancel goes into anything (thank you rebaz), and his aerial game is....well.....pretty dam good.

Of course, he's definitely in the bottom 3 at this point (still bad), but I don't think he belongs on the bottom at all. Not when Gdorf and Link have such awful, terrible recoveries that completely wreck the potential they have.

Also totally agree that zss is better than the IC's; she's a really good character. Either that or I've just watched too many tourney matches of snakee -_-

 

[Red Arremer]

Marth is definitely not the third best character in the game, and Wario definitely isn't B Tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spadefox- uhhhhhh. Why are we debating again? You seem to agree with me. Yes certain tools will have huge effects in some matches. Wolf vs Olimar is a prime example. Read the Marth match ups again. They go very in depth, We didn't just look at simple traits. There is a reason why SWF praises the Marth boards as a whole for their match up threads. Because they are very thorough.

 

[Kinzer]

From what I hear people want to avoid the Marth boards not praise them.

Personally I don't care enough to either believe that (what could be) stereotype, or keep up with Marth because unless it's the matchup between Sonic, it's not really of my concern.

Just saying, I don't want to take a side and argue about whatever.

Edit: Wow I have more posts than you... *sigh* Here it comes...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ummm. so? Post count don't mean ****. lol

 

[Red Arremer]

From what I hear people want to avoid the Marth boards not praise them.

Personally I don't care enough to either believe that (what could be) stereotype, or keep up with Marth because unless it's the matchup between Sonic, it's not really of my concern.

Just saying, I don't want to take a side and argue about whatever.

Yea, what Kinzer said is pretty much true. Whenever I hear someone who's not a Marth main talking about the Marth boards, they're actually all =/-ish, if you get what I mean.

I'm not saying that the Marth boards are stupid or a bad place, but I just think that just plain "comparing" rather than discussing the actual strategies of each character in that matchup is not really the best way to determine stuff. That's why I say that people should take the Marth board matchup information with a grain of salt, not that it's wrong.

Besides, I personally don't like that "We're always right"-attitude I get from many Marth mainers. Not all of them, but a big chunk I've talked to. <.<

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty much everything said in the marth match up discussion is mirrored by the match up threads in the other character forums. And it's not a straight comparison. Sorry if I gave that impression. Seems like your real issue is with the elitism of the Marth community. This is a direct result of mt actions and teachings. I do not apologize for this. If you don't have pride then it's all for nothing. Marth is completely overshadowed by MK. That pride is what keeps that community strong. I would rather see the Marth boards as an arrogant utopia for knowledge then a desolate wasteland where no one posts , but it's humble.

 

[Red Arremer]

Pretty much everything said in the marth match up discussion is mirrored by the match up threads in the other character forums. And it's not a straight comparison. Sorry if I gave that impression. Seems like your real issue is with the elitism of the Marth community. This is a direct result of mt actions and teachings. I do not apologize for this. If you don't have pride then it's all for nothing. Marth is completely overshadowed by MK. That pride is what keeps that community strong. I would rather see the Marth boards as an arrogant utopia for knowledge then a desolate wasteland where no one posts , but it's humble.

You do know, though, that this community is what keeps many people from trying to pick up Marth, right? I would love to play Marth, if it wasn't for his character boards... ^^"

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you can't take a little tough love then clearly your desire to play Marth wasn't strong enough. And yes, I made the community that way on purpose. Consider it a fail safe against people who lack true dedication and conviction. Only those with a fire in their bellies and a thirst for knowledge will attempt to join the Marth community.

 

[Red Arremer]

If you can't take a little tough love then clearly your desire to play Marth wasn't strong enough.

So... Getting tossed around by pricks is "tough love"? Wow... And yes, that could be true - that was in the period where I was looking for a main, and although I would've liked playing Marth, the boards disgusted me.

And yes, I made the community that way on purpose.

What for? Scaring away people who aren't stuck up? o.o

Consider it a fail safe against people who lack true dedication and conviction.

So... not wanting to deal with jerks is a "lack of true dedication and conviction"? O.o

Only those with a fire in their bellies and a thirst for knowledge will attempt to join the Marth community.

So I have to prove myself "worthy" to be a Marth main, and if I'm not playing Marth I'm a lazy idiot who doesn't have any desire to know anything.

It's people who main a character in a game, not some kind of knight order. Seriously. I think you're taking that whole sticking together as mains a little bit too far.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Part of it is simple really . Marth boards HAND FEEDS YOU KNOWLEDGE!! I'm talking high level stuff. So when someone comes in there asking obvious questions that are answered in other threads then they deserved to be flamed. Alot. Is this unreasonable? I don't think it is.

BTW. That last part you said. About how if you don't play Marth you are an idiot. Stop it. Don't be childish and take things out of context and put words in my mouth. What I said was in relation to Marth and you know what I meant.

 

[Red Arremer]

lol. Whatever you say. If you publish your Bible of Marthianity, can I get a copy with some discount?

Anyway, back to topic... let's talk about, uhm... how about Peach? I think we haven't talked about her yet.

 

[Snakeee]

That list of mine doesn't really say that Zelda is better than Sheik, it says that both of them are in the same group of ... uhm... "character potential"? I dunno. But not exact placements.

I myself think Diddy is slightly overrated (although being definitely Top 5), and that Wario has far more potential than he's thought to have. He is definitely among the Top 5, and I can see him on the rise. He has like MK pretty much no disadvantageous matchups.

Despite how much attention Wario is getting now, there are so many things characters can do to him with grab releasing, but of course that doesn't make everything.

Also, he does have quite a few characters that could be considered counters. My characters (ZSS, Sheik/Zelda, Peach) have the advantage against him alone. And I can think of a couple other characters that I know also have an advantage.

He's definitely still up there though, I'm just not ENTIRELY sure he is top 5 material.