The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Darknid]

Well one player can be ridiculous but that doesn't make their character high or mid tier. Boss makes Mario and Luigi look high tier, Vex makes Bowser look more maneuverable than Wario etc. but they are still working with a low/mid tier character. It just proves that every character has potential, not that their characters should be higher. As for Yoshi..Well, I don't see what he has that puts him above chars like Ness and Mario, but he obviously has potential.

 

[Ranor469]

Here's my tier list:

God:
MK
Snake

Top:
Falco
GW
DDD
Wario
Diddy
Marth

High:
ICs
Olimar
ROB
Lucario
Pikachu
Kirby
ZSS
DK

Mid:
Peach
TL
Wolf
Pit
Zelda/Sheik
Luigi

Low:
Bowser
Fox
Ike
Ness
PT
Sonic
Mario
Yoshi

Bottom:
Lucas
Samus
Link
Jiggz
Falcon
Ganon

 

[Red Arremer]

Wait, you sticked Zelda and Sheik into one character and place them only one rank higher thank Zelda holds currently alone...? lol

Also, I'd love to see Bowser and Fox in Low Tier. Finally something they can easily win... Low Tier tournaments.

 

[Iwan]

Meh, I think bowser belongs where he is; maybe a little lower? His OoS options are really, really good (i know, it's been said before. lol).

Random Question: Does anyone think Falcon's aerial game is severely under rated?

 

[Ranor469]

maybe i could have moved zelda/sheik up a little bit, but i don't see her getting into high tier. I would say up 2 or 3 spots but not better than peach. Zelda/sheik was one of the few chars i was unsure about.

I don't think Falcon's air game is severely underrated. I am pretty sure that anyone who knows anything about Falcon knows that his aerial game is where he excels (if anywhere). I have noticed that sweetspot knees kill at significantly low percents.

 

[Red Arremer]

Meh, I think bowser belongs where he is; maybe a little lower? His OoS options are really, really good (i know, it's been said before. lol).

So he should continue ****** Low Tier tournaments because he's actually exactly on the end of Mid Tier?

maybe i could have moved zelda/sheik up a little bit, but i don't see her getting into high tier. I would say up 2 or 3 spots but not better than peach. Zelda/sheik was one of the few chars i was unsure about.

Why not? Here, read my essay on that matter:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226311

Zelda/Sheik have pretty much no disadvantagous matchup if used both.

 

[Frown]

Random Question: Does anyone think Falcon's aerial game is severely under rated?

His uair is good, and that's about it. Almost all of his attacks have outright crappy hitboxes.

 

[Ranor469]

Why not? Here, read my essay on that matter:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226311

Zelda/Sheik have pretty much no disadvantagous matchup if used both.

I have read your essay on that matter before and I agree that Zelda and Sheik should always be grouped but I just can't see zelda/sheik comparing with the characters in high tier. And she still has disadvantaged MUs with at least MK, GW, and Snake, and there could be others I am missing but those are still disadvantages against commonly used top tier characters. I am curious to know who you would put her between on the tier list.

 

[Brinzy]

The problem with a Z/S placement is you'd have to rank them based off of the best combination of Z/S. If that were the case, they'd have somewhere around the top 5 match-ups for sure, because not only would they have three disadvantageous fights, but they have matches heavily in their favor, like Sheik after taking a bit of damage to prevent a Falco chaingrab, though it probably isn't necessary, Sheik against Fox and Wolf, one intensifying an advantage for the other (basically, half of their match-ups), Zelda being able to save Sheik from ICs, Luigi, and Pikachu, etc.

I don't think that they'd let this fly in the SBR tier list, but I'd love to see it happen.

Reading that essay now.

 

[Red Arremer]

Wrong. Only MK and Snake have 60:40 over both of them.

Falco is even with Zelda, and I think even with Sheik, but I'm not 100% sure.
De3 is in Zelda's favour and even with Sheik.
GaW ***** Zelda but is even with Sheik.
Marth has an advantage on Zelda and I think is even with Sheik.
Diddy is even with Zelda and ***** Sheik.
Wario is even with Zelda and I think rather even with Sheik.
ROB is even with Zelda and I think has an advantage over Sheik.
Lucario has an advantage over Zelda, but I think is even with Sheik.
Olimar ***** Zelda but has a disadvantage on Sheik.

And that's just A and B Tier. =P
Of course, none of these Matchups are put from "get *****" to "I'll ****", but rather evening out. That's something you have to consider, of course.

Where I'd put the combination? Into C Tier at least. The metagame of the combination isn't really explored yet, and I don't know what untapped potential may slumber in the combo, but I think already just basing on Matchups that she's a pretty good character.

 

[Ranor469]

It sounds a lot to me like a lot of the sheik MUs are not very well known. And according to the GW boards, GW has a 60:40 advantage over Sheik and according to the Sheik boards, GW has a 55:45 advantage over sheik so that certainly is not even. However, I do notice the potential Z/S has, but she has not been counted as a Z/S MU. All MU advantages are calculated using either solely Zelda or solely Sheik. It would be nice if MU advantages started calculating based on someone who was switching back and forth between the two.

 

[Ranor469]

Yea, i'd have to agree that she is a good character, but she needs some time for her metagame to develop. She should stay in mid tier for now imo, but I can definitely see her getting into high tier in the future.

 

[Red Arremer]

55:45 is normally considered being an even matchup, too, and 60:40 MUs are considered being not easy, but still winnable. I think it's more towards 55:45 for GaW rather than 60:40, myself, though.

And yes, Sheik's Matchups are unfortunately not really well known because the Sheik boards only recently started a Matchup thread and the other boards hardly are so low down on the Tier list so far. ^^"

I can only base on my own experiences with Sheik and my knowledge about her. Which isn't all that great.

Besides, yes, you're correct: It's only MUs for the character used alone, not the combo.

 

[Ranor469]

I think there should also be a Z/S page on the character discussion page, because it will help start the advancement of their metagame as well as discussion of their MU ratios. But for now all we can do is add together their solo performances, and I will still stick to what I said earlier with Z/S being mid tier until this happens.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda/Sheik into low C/high D tier right now sounds fine to me, if only because tournament results play a part in it all and their tournament results are pretty subpar. Of course, from there they can only go up because their massive potential will still be getting fleshed out.

I think there should also be a Z/S page on the character discussion page, because it will help start the advancement of their metagame as well as discussion of their MU ratios. But for now all we can do is add together their solo performances, and I will still stick to what I said earlier with Z/S being mid tier until this happens.

Many players believe in this, but honestly, the communities combined are pretty small as it stands, so having a third place for everyone to come together (instead of working on your Sheik or Zelda on the specific boards) would probably be more harmful than anything.


Oh, and they deserve a spot. There really isn't a powerful reason as to why there shouldn't be one.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think there should also be a Z/S page on the character discussion page, because it will help start the advancement of their metagame as well as discussion of their MU ratios. But for now all we can do is add together their solo performances, and I will still stick to what I said earlier with Z/S being mid tier until this happens.

But you can't stick Z/S into one character when just taking the solo characters into account. =(
That makes no sense. You contradict yourself. You say "Z/S is better than Zelda and Sheik alone, and we only have information on the characters alone, but I will put the combo on Zelda's current spot anyway".

@Successor of Raphael:
Yea, both are really underplayed. <.<

 

[Iwan]

His uair is good, and that's about it. Almost all of his attacks have outright crappy hitboxes.

Meh...but the knee is a great finisher for readable aerial movements and wake-ups on platforms, his bair is powerful, amazing out of double jump, and very unpunishable if spaced properly (not hard to do), Dair out of shield is very VERY good (leads to a free knee at certain percents because of the hit stun), and as you've said already...up air is quite good.

I just think people have this negative image of falcon in their heads; the stereotype is sticking, despite his play style changing rather tremendously over the course of the last year.

 

[Brinzy]

Also, you can't just "add together their solo performances" to get a tier positioning, and mathematics explains why.


- Sheik's tournament performance + Zelda's tournament performance = Sheik/Zelda's tournament performance.

- Tier lists =/= 100% tournament results

Zelda/Sheik tier spot is therefore not completely based off of tournament results.

Zelda/Sheik isn't "barely" better than Zelda - they're MASSIVELY better than Zelda. That's like saying tanks and aircraft together are barely better than tanks alone when you know you can fly the aircraft in when the anti-air isn't present. The effectiveness of the aircraft has now been bolstered greatly because the tanks have removed the anti-air opposition. If you were to use just tanks, you'd get some success; if you were to use just aircraft, you'd get some success; if you were to use both, you could cover the weaknesses of both units to an extent and therefore boost the overall performance.

Same exact idea here: Sheik removes Zelda's tougher fights as well as fights where Sheik's advantaged is very large, so there's no way the addition of Sheik is barely better. No way in hell. The Sheik and Zelda placements now are fine, but I am in full support of this because Sheik and Zelda share a Down B, and the single placements clearly show that this move isn't taken into enough consideration to convince the tier list makers to make it happen.

 

[PK-ow!]

The problem with a Z/S placement is you'd have to rank them based off of the best combination of Z/S. If that were the case, they'd have somewhere around the top 5 match-ups for sure, because not only would they have three disadvantageous fights, but they have matches heavily in their favor, like Sheik after taking a bit of damage to prevent a Falco chaingrab, though it probably isn't necessary, Sheik against Fox and Wolf, one intensifying an advantage for the other (basically, half of their match-ups), Zelda being able to save Sheik from ICs, Luigi, and Pikachu, etc.

I don't think that they'd let this fly in the SBR tier list, but I'd love to see it happen.

Reading that essay now.

In my view, the tier list should have the character boundaries line up with the choices you can make on character select (starting or counterpick). That is, Zelda and Sheik would be different, and (technically) Pokemon Trainer would be distinct from each of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.

But, each transforming character's tier standing should be assessed taking into account the character's ability to transform. So, any problem a Zelda can solve by becoming Sheik should be viewed as solvable for Zelda. This becomes particularly interesting for the Pokemon, since transforming is no trivial matter to their mechanics.

I'm not sure how you'd rank Pokemon Trainer in such a fashion, as it's basically a random token, so at the cost of not being able to tailor your selection to the opponent, he too doesn't have complete information about your choice, even if you pick him on your opponent's CP. So you can't exactly dismiss it; it's not even trivial that you could assume he'd place lower than all the specific pokemon - that seems to be a question that would depend on how the pokemon contrast as characters.

But this is an aside. The point is the preceding makes sense. The tier list is about ranking choices you get to make. It is also theory fighter. In theory fighter, you know your character, and your opponent's character, and the entire meta. This would include knowing Sheik, and so it only makes sense to assume the player is maxing out all transform abilities.

I understand that I ought to reply to Spadefox's essay, although that only makes sense if tier-list making people are actually paying attention to either of us... which I just hope without any evidence.
Spadefox, I think you may sympathize with my position so I was just wondering if you even disagree with it and won't just recant the position in your essay for my own.

 

[Red Arremer]

Besides, the problem is that evening out Zelda's and Sheik's positions and putting the average of both is not correct either.
Currently, Zelda and Sheik are placed as own characters without a Down B and not considering their transformation. Just like in Melee's Tier List.

The problem with that is, as I pointed out in my essay, that in Melee there was no reason to make a combination as Zelda being Bottom Tier and Sheik being Top Tier was clear that noone would use Zelda - she also has no advantageous matchups against everyone above her, pretty much.

However, in Brawl both characters have similar potential. And that's where it starts to conflict, because that similar potential put together and using both to cover the bad Matchups of the other character is not the average of both of them.

The comparison SoR (may I abbreviate you with that?) makes, is very good. Why should I play Zelda against GaW when I can switch to Sheik? Why should I not use both characters in a match when I can gain an advantage out of it (in that case Sheik racking damage and Zelda finishing with fresh moves!)?

@PK-ow!:
The problem the PT suffers is that he has his forced switch after a stock-loss and the fatigue, making you to have to switch. You, however, never need to switch in between Zelda and Sheik, which is my point that they both have to be in a combination and separately on the tier list.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, call me whatever you wish. I'm just suddenly hyped about this whole thing even though I've thought about it several times in the past.

Man, when I get some wheels up at my college, I'm gonna hit up the tournaments like mad. I don't think I'll use any other character at any point... well, I might use Ness against Peach because I feel more comfortable with that, but that's about it. If nothing else, more tournament representation and more placings would net them a better spot in rankings, which will ultimately mean that, together, they'll move up, but we know this already.

I also like the whole "more prey" thing. You know how you were taught as there are more wolves, there are less rabbits, which causes less wolves, which causes more rabbits, etc.? Well for smash, more falcons (both the bird and the man), wolves, and foxes should lead to more Sheikys, which may lead to more electric mice, which could cause less Sheikys but more Zeldas, which brings more Ikeys, which makes more Sheikys come out, and...

... well, you'd be left with someone who can be a ninja or a magical princess.

/currently fanboying, and is going to bed

 

[Red Arremer]

I also like the whole "more prey" thing. You know how you were taught as there are more wolves, there are less rabbits, which causes less wolves, which causes more rabbits, etc.? Well for smash, more falcons (both the bird and the man), wolves, and foxes should lead to more Sheikys, which may lead to more electric mice, which could cause less Sheikys but more Zeldas, which brings more Ikeys, which makes more Sheiks come out, and...

... well, you'd be left with someone who can be a ninja or a magical princess.

Oh God... this is so good, if it weren't so long I'd sig it. XD

 

[Ranor469]

But you can't stick Z/S into one character when just taking the solo characters into account. =(
That makes no sense. You contradict yourself. You say "Z/S is better than Zelda and Sheik alone, and we only have information on the characters alone, but I will put the combo on Zelda's current spot anyway".

I said that I would move her up 2 or 3 spots from where I had her (which was already up one spot) and that's approx where you said you would put her if you had to place her now. And you CAN stick her into one character when just taking the solo characters into account because once you are in the fight you can still switch characters. And with Sheik's better MUs against Zelda's disadvantages, that's the minimum ranking that Z/S has right now, with potential to move up a significant amount.

 

[Ranor469]

I also like the whole "more prey" thing. You know how you were taught as there are more wolves, there are less rabbits, which causes less wolves, which causes more rabbits, etc.? Well for smash, more falcons (both the bird and the man), wolves, and foxes should lead to more Sheikys, which may lead to more electric mice, which could cause less Sheikys but more Zeldas, which brings more Ikeys, which makes more Sheiks come out, and...

... well, you'd be left with someone who can be a ninja or a magical princess.

Haha yes that is amazing.

 

[Darknid]

The only time I'd see a transformation necessary is if you're struggling with Sheik's horrendous kill moves or if your opponent can transform as well and a transformation would help the matchup.

 

[gm jack]

The only time I'd see a transformation necessary is if you're struggling with Sheik's horrendous kill moves or if your opponent can transform as well and a transformation would help the matchup.

Sheik has a horrific match up against Ice Climbers. Zelda has a significant advantage.

As I stated earlier, using both (but only transforming if necessary) the character has a total of 5 bad match ups (G&W, Lucario, Marth, MK and Snake) and only MK is greater than a 60:40 disadvantage (65:35).

Quite frankly, that is a **** good set of match ups. Considering the Snake boards have given Snake 4 match ups that are not neutral or in his favour out of the 11 characters they have looked at (even if most of these disadvantages are pretty small) I think Zelda/Sheik should have a very good chance of moving to the top end of mid tier. Hell, Falco give 5 disadvantageous match ups out of the 19 they have done, and DDD has 10 so far, including a hard counter in the shape of Ice Climbers.

If Z/S can have match ups that are often arguably as good as those in the top tier, she is not going to be just a little bit better than them separately.

 

[Klemm]

I know this is off-topic because everyone is discussing the Zelda/Sheik conundrum, and I apologize, but does anyone think Peach has a chance of being raised at least a few spots next tier list release? I think she deserves the top of the D pack, at least. She has even match-ups with pretty much everybody on the cast, her only discernable downfalls are against MK, G&W and Marth, but having advantages against R.O.B., Olimar (major advantage), Wario, Diddy, and the IC's to name some in tiers above her.

I mean, she has issuses with the top of the top, but B and C tier she is either even or with an advantage, it seems, so I totally think she could be amongst the head of the D's or mixed in with the C's.

Does anyone agree or disagree?

 

[Kataefi]

Successor that analogy about tanks and planes, and the whole food chain concept was very good. Probably the best analogy regarding both of them imo.
--

Based specifically on damage racking and NOT killing, Sheik pretty much goes even or is advantaged against a lot of the cast. Ratios begin to dwindle at later percents when it becomes apparent Sheik cannot kill unless with a setup of some kind or a gimp, and without those the opponent can catch up percent wise and finish her off very easily. The point of transformation happens here; Sheik keeps her even/advantaged stance with Zelda, where suddenly at this point it can become heavily in Zelda's favour because of the ease in landing kill moves - you only need to land a move once to be able to get the job done, and the range and speed of her kill moves make this very doable job.

The transition between damage racking and killing is the whole point of the transformation, and makes Sheik/Zelda a MUCH better character than its solo counterparts. For this reason I don't think Zelda/Sheik's matchups are necessarily dictated by the average of solo Sheik and Zelda's matchups. Like Peach for example (I could be wrong at the highest level of play here, if so just replace Peach with someone this applies to) - she beats both Sheik and Zelda when used solo, but she doesn't beat Sheik/Zelda combined; the transformation to Zelda when both fighters are at later percents puts a significant advantage in favour of Zelda because it's one touch one KO, something Peach just cannot do back.

I think there are a lot of matchups that work this way - and then you have the ones where it is more beneficial to remain solo Sheik or Zelda, which is still using the best combination of the two at the given moment and should be counted as such. This isn't melee, where Sheik was ALWAYS the better option.

 

[SmashChu]

Zelda/Sheik isn't "barely" better than Zelda - they're MASSIVELY better than Zelda. That's like saying tanks and aircraft together are barely better than tanks alone when you know you can fly the aircraft in when the anti-air isn't present. The effectiveness of the aircraft has now been bolstered greatly because the tanks have removed the anti-air opposition. If you were to use just tanks, you'd get some success; if you were to use just aircraft, you'd get some success; if you were to use both, you could cover the weaknesses of both units to an extent and therefore boost the overall performance.

Of course it's Massively better. You added them. A true representation would to be to add them and then divide by 2.

The reason they are separate is because they are used separate. It would be different if people shuffled them a lot.

 

[Red Arremer]

How is it a true representation if you divide by 2? That makes no sense. That's just a cheap get-away trick, that isn't really accurate.

You could do that if everything in Brawl would be 100% balanced, but it isn't, so the matchups are more situational.

The thing is, I can face almost every character in the game with Zelda/Sheik as a combination because the one covers the disadvantageous matchups of the other one.
And, additionally, as Kataefi correctly said: There are matchups that are made easier if you go with the tandem. Both characters have a disadvantage against Peach when going Solo, but when played in combination, they will beat Peach.

It really makes no sense to just "divide by 2". What is that going to help? Nothing.

 

[gm jack]

But an average would be wrong. At the most basic level, you can just transform into the character who is best for each match up on their own, and already you are better than either of them alone. Then if we start bringing in reasons why they have disadvantages alone, transforming mid match can give a combined match up that is greater than the sum of its parts.

In the classic case, Sheik can rack up damage well, but struggles to get KOs. Zelda may struggle to rack up damage without decaying her KO moves to the point where it makes it tricky to get a KO.

Now, if you start as Sheik in a generic match up, you can rack up damage nicely with Sheik's great speed and combo abilities thanks to her Ftilt lock. Then, use a DACUS or a surprise down smash to hit them away, and transform into Zelda. Then, all it will take it to land one of her 7 KO moves (all smashes, Utilt, Fair, Bair and Uair), and that doesn't include her spike. Once they are KOed, transform back to Sheik and repeat with your refreshed moves.

On top of this, you can just swap in order to force a change of tactics etc. Together they should be a force to be feared. Possibly the only reason holding them back in tournaments is the required learning of two characters. Once you get used to the distance you need to change between the two (or doing rising transformations), there is nothing stopping you using the two together.

 

[AHL]

the list is very good, but Falcon>ganondorf

 

[Ranor469]

I know this is off-topic because everyone is discussing the Zelda/Sheik conundrum, and I apologize, but does anyone think Peach has a chance of being raised at least a few spots next tier list release? I think she deserves the top of the D pack, at least. She has even match-ups with pretty much everybody on the cast, her only discernable downfalls are against MK, G&W and Marth, but having advantages against R.O.B., Olimar (major advantage), Wario, Diddy, and the IC's to name some in tiers above her.

I mean, she has issuses with the top of the top, but B and C tier she is either even or with an advantage, it seems, so I totally think she could be amongst the head of the D's or mixed in with the C's.

Does anyone agree or disagree?

I think that she will move above Toon Link and Pit but I can see her possibly getting passed by Z/S. I also think and hope that the SBR will lose the 9 tiers they have now and possibly go back to top, high, mid, low, bottom, possibly with a god tier for MK and Snake.

 

[Red Arremer]

I don't like the term "God Tier", because it implies that these characters are unbeatable. I think S Tier for those "over the top" would be better, if cutting the other Top Tiers off of them at all.

 

[Alex_Death]

the list is very good, but Falcon>ganondorf

yeah
falcon>>ganon
ganon :
-Is sloooooooooooooooooooooow
-His recovery sux
-His matchups are bad
-His aerials has lagggg ._.
-Is SloWWWWWWWWW
-Is sloooooooooowwwwww
....
Falcon hasnt priority and his matchup sux .-. but falcon is fast and his uair ftw!!

 

[Red Arremer]

Ganon also:
- has Power
- has Chainchoke
- has Pooowwwwweeeeeer
- has Thunderstomp
- Pooooowwwwwwerrrrrr
- is strong
- STRRRRROOOOOONG
- good defensive game
- has an insane Jab
- Power and Strength

 

[AHL]

Ganon also:
- has Power
- has Chainchoke
- has Pooowwwwweeeeeer
- has Thunderstomp
- Pooooowwwwwwerrrrrr
- is strong
- STRRRRROOOOOONG
- good defensive game
- has an insane Jab
- Power and Strength

Ganon:
-Power
-Dair good

 

[Ranor469]

I still would have to agree with falcon>ganon. Ganon gets absolutely ***** by IC and Sheik (95:5) and Falcon doesn't get ***** that badly by anyone.
I also find it funny that 6 out of your 10 things that ganon has were that he has power and strength.... lawl.

I don't like the term "God Tier", because it implies that these characters are unbeatable. I think S Tier for those "over the top" would be better, if cutting the other Top Tiers off of them at all.

I agree with S tier, because I still feel like there is a distinction between the two, or at least MK and the rest of the A tier. Also it seems that MK and Snake are generally accepted to be best and second (at least in terms of right now).

 

[Brinzy]

Uh, "no"? That's all true.

Ganon also

- has better weight
- has slightly better range
- can end stocks in suicides if he gets a lead


The mere fact that he can set up tech-chases with two moves (which, you get hit by, are gonna lead to lots of damage or even death) should be a good indicator that he's got some things going for him that Falcon does not.



EDIT: So Ganon gets ***** by Sheik and ICs. Falcon also loses to Sheik and the ICs, so that's almost a moot point. Name some fights where Falcon does significantly better than Ganon. Just remember that Ganon is still gonna live longer and kill earlier in all of them.

 

[Ranor469]

EDIT: So Ganon gets ***** by Sheik and ICs. Falcon also loses to Sheik and the ICs, so that's almost a moot point. Name some fights where Falcon does significantly better than Ganon. Just remember that Ganon is still gonna live longer and kill earlier in all of them.

I can't name any MUs where Falcon does significantally because they both suck, however Ganon is a larger target and easier to hit. And assuming that both Ganon and Falcon hit the same amount then yes Ganon will kill earlier and more easily, but Falcon is much more likely to get hits in because of his speed compared to Ganon's. Ganon is also heavier but it doesn't mean that he can't get killed by edge/ledge guarding.

They both lose or get ***** by everyone so of course Falcon will lose to ICs and Sheik, I'm just saying that he has no 95:5 MUs