Frown
poekmon
Falcon can't hit his opponents.
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
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Ranor469
Smash Apprentice
I dont think Ganon can either. For either of them to hit anyone they have to get lucky or the opponent has to be bad or sangbagging.
Edit: Its hard to judge which character is better when they both suck so bad, because they are approximately the same.
D
Deleted member
Guest
LOL!
The stupidity in this thread is enormous. I guarentee you my falcon can beat quite a few of you here, and i dont play him.
If he cant hit opponents, where do his tournament results come from? Bad players? My ***, champ was on the socal power rankings with falcon, shiek and fox, and you have to be an amazing player to get on those, and there are many good socal players. Sandbagging? Why the hell would someone sand bag in tournament.
Falcon has a solid aerial game, a good followup game, and he has a beastly uair, a nair that combos into jab grabs, and a good enough bair and dair.
Ganons ok too, for one he has one of the best punishing games in the entire game. He has guarenteed jabs/ftilts/dtilts on most of the cast out of a side b, and he is a solid edgeguarder.
WORST IN THE GAME=/= UNABLE TO BE USED
The stupidity in this thread is enormous. I guarentee you my falcon can beat quite a few of you here, and i dont play him.
If he cant hit opponents, where do his tournament results come from? Bad players? My ***, champ was on the socal power rankings with falcon, shiek and fox, and you have to be an amazing player to get on those, and there are many good socal players. Sandbagging? Why the hell would someone sand bag in tournament.
Falcon has a solid aerial game, a good followup game, and he has a beastly uair, a nair that combos into jab grabs, and a good enough bair and dair.
Ganons ok too, for one he has one of the best punishing games in the entire game. He has guarenteed jabs/ftilts/dtilts on most of the cast out of a side b, and he is a solid edgeguarder.
WORST IN THE GAME=/= UNABLE TO BE USED
Ranor469
Smash Apprentice
No ****.... but they're still worst in the game. And I don't actually think that they can't hit anyone, its just much harder than it needs to be.
I have more I can show you. As I said before, you only have to ask...
He came 25th, not 35th.35 is a really good placing, especially in such a large tourney but, it will have 0 effect on yohshi's tourney results. Doesn't it have to be in the top 8 to be considered worthy of a ranking?
Again, I'm basing this of Anokou's list which I think is what the SBR-B uses when taking in consideration of tourney results for the tier list.
-Bowser King
I believe it has to be top 8. But I have seen many Tournament results posted that have Yoshi top 8. Which goes to show it can be done with Yoshi.
Anyways... I have always wanted to ask this. Who do you think is better? Link or Samus? I think they are about the same, but I wanted to hear from you guys first.
Any suggestions?
Frown
poekmon
I don't know, actually... They are both slow characters with trouble killing.
rehab
Smash Journeyman
I thought the BR didn't care about the list.
Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
ganon vs falcon?
falcon
- faster
- less lag, almost no lag on aerials
- more agility in the air
ganon
- arguably the best killer in the game, basically falcon's power doesn't compare at all to ganon's
- superior specials
- very low lag on kill moves such as U smash, dair, bair, uair and F tilt.
- almost every move of his kills
- his limbs might as well be swords in terms of priority
- superior range
- better at racking up damage
- heavier
- side B basically functions as one of the best dashgrabs in the game that leads into 3 or 4 of his kill moves, in most cases unavoidable
- superior spike
Ganon easily wins.
falcon
- faster
- less lag, almost no lag on aerials
- more agility in the air
ganon
- arguably the best killer in the game, basically falcon's power doesn't compare at all to ganon's
- superior specials
- very low lag on kill moves such as U smash, dair, bair, uair and F tilt.
- almost every move of his kills
- his limbs might as well be swords in terms of priority
- superior range
- better at racking up damage
- heavier
- side B basically functions as one of the best dashgrabs in the game that leads into 3 or 4 of his kill moves, in most cases unavoidable
- superior spike
Ganon easily wins.
Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
I honestly think Link is better. His only problem really is his recovery. He's got a really good ground game, average power(whereas Samus has no power), tons of ATs that, when used correctly, rack up damage faster than Samus can(samus will hit you with a 60 hit combo and you'll have like 16% damage..honestly). His range is also some of the best in the game. So as long as you avoid getting knocked off the edge low like the black ****ing death you're good to go.
haloman800
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 100
mk does not deserve a perfect 15, maybe 14.50. he dosent have a projectile and gets ***** by people who do (Snake falco) D=
He's so broken in every other aspect, that it doesn't even matter.
MetaKnight never gets *****.
Frown
poekmon
Well, that 15.0 value is the average amount of points that the SBR members gave him. It doesn't mean he's the perfect character.
Kinzer
Mammy
... Planking, it solves that LAZAH! problem guaranteed or your money back.
Only applicable at CoT4.
Only applicable at CoT4.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You're missing the point that the score is not a measure of 'the best' character in the game, but rather a score that was averaged from votes of the members. Therefore MK is 15, because it appears no one voted him anything less then the very top.
Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
Ganon's approach is much better than Falcon's. Everything Falcon does can be shieldgrabbed, except grab, which is easy to intercept. Ganon can at least airgrab you, and can be difficult to punish when he thunderstomps your shield.
1. I disagree
2. I agree
Go into practice and try Usmash, follow it immediately with a buffered F smash or F tilt. Extremely low ending lag which can punish airdodgers very well. Ftilt also has pretty low lag but not as low as U smash. Also try thunderstomping, zero landing lag there. Retreating thunderstomp to F smash is a popular killing strategy(watch koskinator play)
Even so, it's a lot better than Falcon's.
Well, he racks up damage better than Falcon as Falcon's combos are easily escaped and dair does what..18% damage? gerudo choke into QDA into uair or gerudo choke into dair tech chase to thunderstomping, end that with a U smash and that's 70% in what..3-4 seconds? Now, a lot of this isn't very practical or likely but it beats the **** out of Falcon's combos. Plus there is so little lag on his SH dair that you can immediately follow it up with another choke if you misread them. You think of damage racking to be the ability to combo..when Snake is easily one of the best at racking up damage and has no combos, just several powerful strikes.
Ganon's recovery is just as good as Falcon's, dude. Pretty sure Falcon falls faster and his up B doesn't go as high, plus it doesn't have that last hit that makes it slightly more dangerous. Falcon's only advantage is a higher DJ. Being heavier doesn't mean you will end up lower..it means you won't go as far. Your trajectory will be exactly the same, plus even if it did you can do what Link mains do and DI upwards. More weight is better, period.
Actually in a lot of cases the QDA is unavoidable and it's a nice kill move that will probably be fresh. The other stuff like D tilt/Dair/F smash isn't, though.
We don't have to forget it. Ganon is still better, plus his attacks are generally the same speed as Falcon's, but with less ending lag. F tilt, D tilt, F smash, U smash, D smash(bit slower), they are all in the same ballpark. Aerials too.
lol..ganon can't land a hit but Falcon can? Can you name one high tier character that doesn't automatically beat 100% of Falcon's attacks/approaches? In a defensive game, the ability to approach is essential. Ganon has a superior approach and his kill moves are JUST AS EASY TO LAND <-- perhaps easier due to the gerudo choke setting up for them. Seriously, play a top level Ganon and your mind may be changed.
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Actually, he's 16 in tourney rankings, a "standard" B rank character for tourney results ever since Biglou and a few others hit the scene.
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
Falcon having a better neutral b moves than ganon hardly means anything.
The important b moves like b down and b foward ganon excells in.
The important b moves like b down and b foward ganon excells in.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
OMG it's unbelievable that people STILL think Ganon is worse than CF. For the love of god for starters Falcon's speed CANNOT help him against Ganon because Ganon has superior priority. Sure he's faster but if Ganon does things like uair he outprioritizes falcon. sure Ganon has a bad recovery but side b and down b are superior to Falcon's. both of their neutral b moves suck due to lag.
Ganon is just far more powerful and DOES rack up damage faster. He has better out of shield options than falcon, superior priority, more range, BETTER KO MOVES. Ganon's chainchoke can set up for kill moves or just more attacks. Ganon does have the advantage.
Sure CF's recovery is better and sure he's faster, but he's the second fastest character IN THE GAME. which means not only does his speed NOT help him in any match up since he doesn't have any advantageous match ups at all but his lack of priority makes it bad for him.
Ganon is just far more powerful and DOES rack up damage faster. He has better out of shield options than falcon, superior priority, more range, BETTER KO MOVES. Ganon's chainchoke can set up for kill moves or just more attacks. Ganon does have the advantage.
Sure CF's recovery is better and sure he's faster, but he's the second fastest character IN THE GAME. which means not only does his speed NOT help him in any match up since he doesn't have any advantageous match ups at all but his lack of priority makes it bad for him.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
yes and Sonic's faster than MK so he MUST have the advantage
Kinzer
Mammy
This man, he gets it.
Steak Tier.
Actually believe it or not, the matchup is surprisingly okay, but then whose going to believe me?
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
In short for the Falcon vs Ganondorf matchup, it's like a ******** roadrunner (Falcon) vs a deranged 300 pund fat guy with an axe (Ganondorf). Sure Falcon has speed, but that's sorta it,Falcon can't run from Ganondorf the whole game, Ganondorf's gonna get hm eventually. Yeah...Ganondorf's better.
TP
Smash Master
Usmash has less end lag than MK's Fsmash. Dtilt is guaranteed out of choke, regardless of DI or percent, on about 30 characters. Jab is guaranteed on about 20, and Dash Attack and Ftilt are guaranteed on about 15. Add about 5 to each of those numbers if the opponent knows what direction to DI.
Please, do not talk about a character if you know nothing about him.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
lol Kinzer i get the basic lecture from Cam all the time, it's not Sonic's worst match up but you got my point
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
EDIT: It appears that others have confirmed what I was saying while I was posting.
This is not a "Ganon vs. Falcon" match-up. This is "what does one have that the other doesn't" as far as a tier placement goes.
Now, some things I'd like to comment on.
- Nobody cares if you can beat someone with Falcon. That was not the point made.
- Nobody cares about how he ties in with Sheik and Fox. This is a tier discussion for Falcon and Ganon.
- Falcon's uair might be very good, but you're comparing this to Ganon, who just so happens to have aerials of a similar, if not better caliber than Falcon's.
Oh, and Ganon is hitting harder in the first place. I doubt Falcon is really tacking on that much more damage than Ganon is, and if he is, wonderful, but Ganon is still killing sooner. Not that I agree with this situation I'm about to post, but who cares if Falcon can take someone to 150% when Ganon only gets them to 100%... when that's about the point where they can both kill reliably? How about Falcon 130% and Ganon 80%? Same kill rate to me. Of course, that's not how it really works - there is no "50% deficit" between the two of them because I already made my case as to why Ganon is not falling behind in damage. How about Falcon and Ganon both have someone at 90%? Who the hell cares if Falcon can get more hits in when all Ganon needs is 1? If it doesn't kill, then Ganon just opens up a few more kill moves while Falcon opens up what, Fsmash on a heavy character?
That's right, there is none. If they employ the same DI, they can recover from smash attacks like Zelda's Dsmash and Falco's Dsmash if they get around the edgeguarding. They're placed in very similar situations for edgeguarding. Falcon can go a bit farther, which doesn't matter in the end because Ganon is gonna make it back from everything that Falcon can since there will be an edgeguarder present. Edgehog for the kill or punish when they land on the stage.
But if worse comes to worse, Falcon can try and Side B for a meteor and potential survival, while Ganon can Side B for a kill at any %, which is especially useful if he has a lot of damage or has a stock lead. Anyway, I'm not too concerned with this. My main point is that Ganon's weight is not a con. Not to mention you can be as light as Fox and still fall faster than Ganon.
In a defensive game, you need to utilize grabs, rolls, shields, etc. to the best of your ability. Let's say Ganon and Falcon are forced to approach. Falcon's pro here is that he has speed. Ganon's pro is that he has two grabs to work with, one which is very mobile and sets up tech-chases to **** defensive choices, Ganon has more moves in more situations that are safe(r) on block than Falcon does.
It's funny how Ganon can't land a hit but Falcon can, when Ganon doesn't need to chase anyone down and jump around a Brawl stage like a fool to deal with an opponent who is playing the traditional defensive game and he has a Side B and a standard grab that beats shields and some attacks hands down (as opposed to just a shield, since Falcon is getting clashed/overriden).
This is not a "Ganon vs. Falcon" match-up. This is "what does one have that the other doesn't" as far as a tier placement goes.
Now, some things I'd like to comment on.
You're talking a lot about things that don't mean ****.
- Nobody cares if you can beat someone with Falcon. That was not the point made.
- Nobody cares about how he ties in with Sheik and Fox. This is a tier discussion for Falcon and Ganon.
- Falcon's uair might be very good, but you're comparing this to Ganon, who just so happens to have aerials of a similar, if not better caliber than Falcon's.
Go try it. It's not that laggy on the end. In some situations, it's safe on block.
Yeah, because Falcon has all of these guaranteed follow-ups he gets after hitting someone with something that isn't Jab and... oh, wait, no he doesn't. He might have a few here and there, but the fact of the matter is that Ganon sets up tech-chases far better than Falcon ever could (or many characters in the game for that matter). Tech-chases that can end in 20-40%+ for your opponent.
Oh, and Ganon is hitting harder in the first place. I doubt Falcon is really tacking on that much more damage than Ganon is, and if he is, wonderful, but Ganon is still killing sooner. Not that I agree with this situation I'm about to post, but who cares if Falcon can take someone to 150% when Ganon only gets them to 100%... when that's about the point where they can both kill reliably? How about Falcon 130% and Ganon 80%? Same kill rate to me. Of course, that's not how it really works - there is no "50% deficit" between the two of them because I already made my case as to why Ganon is not falling behind in damage. How about Falcon and Ganon both have someone at 90%? Who the hell cares if Falcon can get more hits in when all Ganon needs is 1? If it doesn't kill, then Ganon just opens up a few more kill moves while Falcon opens up what, Fsmash on a heavy character?
Incredibly irrelevant (and possibly incorrect). Ganon's heavier weight is obviously a pro with basically no cons. Name a move that Falcon can recover from but Ganon can't, in the presence of an edgeguarder.
That's right, there is none. If they employ the same DI, they can recover from smash attacks like Zelda's Dsmash and Falco's Dsmash if they get around the edgeguarding. They're placed in very similar situations for edgeguarding. Falcon can go a bit farther, which doesn't matter in the end because Ganon is gonna make it back from everything that Falcon can since there will be an edgeguarder present. Edgehog for the kill or punish when they land on the stage.
But if worse comes to worse, Falcon can try and Side B for a meteor and potential survival, while Ganon can Side B for a kill at any %, which is especially useful if he has a lot of damage or has a stock lead. Anyway, I'm not too concerned with this. My main point is that Ganon's weight is not a con. Not to mention you can be as light as Fox and still fall faster than Ganon.
In a defensive game, being able to run fast is nice if you're someone who can flat out dupe his opponent with your attacks (Sonic) or if you can force them out of that defensive position easily while maintaining that speed (Sheik). Falcon, as far as I'm concerned, does neither of these without the air of, say, a stock lead.
In a defensive game, you need to utilize grabs, rolls, shields, etc. to the best of your ability. Let's say Ganon and Falcon are forced to approach. Falcon's pro here is that he has speed. Ganon's pro is that he has two grabs to work with, one which is very mobile and sets up tech-chases to **** defensive choices, Ganon has more moves in more situations that are safe(r) on block than Falcon does.
It's funny how Ganon can't land a hit but Falcon can, when Ganon doesn't need to chase anyone down and jump around a Brawl stage like a fool to deal with an opponent who is playing the traditional defensive game and he has a Side B and a standard grab that beats shields and some attacks hands down (as opposed to just a shield, since Falcon is getting clashed/overriden).
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
ahh forget it im too tired to carry ona debate. I'll just secede since im probably wrong anyway @_@
Pokemon Trainer is so beast. Apparently, a well-timed Rock Smash beats the Tornado efficiently.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I was exaggerating because ... I forgot his nick and am too lazy to check up on it now ... anyway, he posted SLOOOOOWWWWWWW 3 times, so I exaggerated.
What does Ganon have what Falcon hasn't? Well, for instance, an infinite. Ganon also has priority, and, funny enough, many of Ganon's moves are not that much slower than Falcon's - expect maybe in ending lag. Ganon also has his raw power. He hits like a wrecking ball.
Hell, Ganon even has a Jab that can KO. Also, I think having a good defensive game in a defensive game is pretty good, no?
Last but not least: Thunderstorming is one of the most horrible strategies I've even seen. Bouncy Ganons are incredibly hard to deal with. >.<
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
ignore this post
TP
Smash Master
Let me clear up several misconceptions in this debate.
First of all, Falcon does have a better recovery. His better horizontal air speed allows him to get back more often. Nobody is going to tell you Ganon's recovery is good.
Second, Ganon has no aerials safe on block? WTF? He has 1 aerial safe on block, and it is his most important one by far: Uair. Uair is far and away Ganon's best move. It is basically Ganon's entire defense game, and he is a defensive character. If Ganon just turns around and uses the back part of the Uair (known as tipman) he can get his shield up like 5 frames after the hitbox ends. Great range and priority on that, BTW. SH Uair (not tipman) beats most air approaches. Tipman is also the reason why Ganon is far better at edgeguarding than Falcon. Best semi-spike in the game.
Moving on, quit saying bad things about Usmash. It comes out on frame 21, which is the same as Falcon's. In fact, Ganon and Falcon have the same start-up time for every aerial and smash, except Ganon has the faster Dsmasn (worthless) and Falcon has the faster Fair. Anyway, Usmash is always safe on block due to its nonexistent end lag. It is also disjointed enough to safely explode a Bob-omb.
Now, on to the choke. You are all looking at it the wrong way. It is a punishing move, period. It is NEVER an approach. If it was, it would always fail, since grabs outprioritize it, as do most jabs. Once one choke is landed (which doesn't take long, we Ganon mains know when to look for a time to use it) the fun begins. Choke>Ftilt on MK at 80% for a kill, anyone? How about Choke>Dtilt>Dtilt>Choke>Dtilt on heavies? (That one isn't guaranteed, but it usually works.
Speaking of Dtilt, that move alone makes Ganon better than Falcon. It outspaces MK. Nuff said.
Thunderstorming is useful too. A thunderstorm at zero leads to a guaranteed Usmash on about 15 characters, 10 of which are always hit by the following Uair. Thunderstorming also lets us kill anyone at 100% if they leave themselves open once.
Oh, and Ganon has a beard.
First of all, Falcon does have a better recovery. His better horizontal air speed allows him to get back more often. Nobody is going to tell you Ganon's recovery is good.
Second, Ganon has no aerials safe on block? WTF? He has 1 aerial safe on block, and it is his most important one by far: Uair. Uair is far and away Ganon's best move. It is basically Ganon's entire defense game, and he is a defensive character. If Ganon just turns around and uses the back part of the Uair (known as tipman) he can get his shield up like 5 frames after the hitbox ends. Great range and priority on that, BTW. SH Uair (not tipman) beats most air approaches. Tipman is also the reason why Ganon is far better at edgeguarding than Falcon. Best semi-spike in the game.
Moving on, quit saying bad things about Usmash. It comes out on frame 21, which is the same as Falcon's. In fact, Ganon and Falcon have the same start-up time for every aerial and smash, except Ganon has the faster Dsmasn (worthless) and Falcon has the faster Fair. Anyway, Usmash is always safe on block due to its nonexistent end lag. It is also disjointed enough to safely explode a Bob-omb.
Now, on to the choke. You are all looking at it the wrong way. It is a punishing move, period. It is NEVER an approach. If it was, it would always fail, since grabs outprioritize it, as do most jabs. Once one choke is landed (which doesn't take long, we Ganon mains know when to look for a time to use it) the fun begins. Choke>Ftilt on MK at 80% for a kill, anyone? How about Choke>Dtilt>Dtilt>Choke>Dtilt on heavies? (That one isn't guaranteed, but it usually works.
Speaking of Dtilt, that move alone makes Ganon better than Falcon. It outspaces MK. Nuff said.
Thunderstorming is useful too. A thunderstorm at zero leads to a guaranteed Usmash on about 15 characters, 10 of which are always hit by the following Uair. Thunderstorming also lets us kill anyone at 100% if they leave themselves open once.
Oh, and Ganon has a beard.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
That is very false.
Uair is not safe on block because of the fact that when your opponent is on the ground, in order to land the Uair, you are forced to lag on the ground. None os his aerals are safe on block.
You can be safe when they are above on a platform, shielding, but when on the same level? Nah
Let alone it is rather difficult hitting a grounded opponent with a Uair when they are average height.
TP
Smash Master
I forgot to mention that Ganon is always moving away from the opponent while doing tipman (so moving in the direction Ganon is facing). This + shield push = safe on block. There are only about 7 (including hitlag) frames before Ganon's shield goes up.
Iwan
Smash Ace
Ganondorf isn't better lol. It's not the speed to run away, it's the speed to punish an extremely slow moving character. Falcon's boxing game leads to tons of strings or mix ups that really punish ganondorf really fast. < that part, just to address a few of you talking about the match up (which isn't really what we're debating here).
Gdorf has damage racking potential out the whoa, and crazy KO power, but his speed versus power trade off isn't worth it; he lacks any sort of consistent stage control because a good Gdorf can destroy someone in seconds for one stock, and then lose a stock in a matter of seconds the very next stock.
His recovery is also awful...puts a big blow on what would have been a lot of potential. he shares the same glaring weakness as link; an awful recovery puts a cap on the potential he has.
Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
Er..How does this make falcon any better? Falcon's recovery sucks too, it's slightly better at best. Ganon racks up damage leagues faster than Falcon, as Ganon will land 4 consecutive hits on you and you're into kill range, meanwhile Falcon has to combo you which doesn't really work as well in brawl and his boxing game doesn't rack up damage nearly as fast as Ganon's choking/thunderstomp combos. Get this through your head, Ganon's attacks are <identical in startup speed and have less ending lag> than Falcon's. Punishing Ganon is a lot harder than punishing Falcon, plus punishment from Falcon is what..14% damage and that's if he lands two different attacks on you which really isn't likely, but punishment from ganon is probably going to be a choke or F smash which will kill you at what..70%? It kills me nearly that low as DK, the second heaviest char in the game.
Ganon is clearly superior.
Iwan
Smash Ace
Let me expand on my last post some.
First thing's first: Gdorf and Falcon's aerials both have the same start up speed; the ending lag differs in that all of Falcon's aerials auto cancel. the same can't be said for ganondorf.
Falcon has (as I've said many times) a very, very, very good boxing game. Arguably the best in the game. Jab jab grab is good, yes, but first hit of nair (spaced properly, please...)>>>jab>>>jabgrab>>>aerial string/wait and see approach/ mix up is very good and severely under rated.
As for aerial game, it's a toss up, because both have great aerial moves. Gdorf and falcon's up airs are essentially identical, with Gdorf's having more knockback and damage (I think more damage?), although, does falcon's have more range? Someone confirm that, if anyone knows off the top of their head for sure :/. Falcon has the better fair; it AC's and is a great punisher for rolling wakeups, platform shenanigans, and any sort of readable aerial movement made by your opponent. Down air goes to ganondorf for the obvious reason of thunderstorming, but falcon's dair is also VERY, very good out of shield (straight into a free knee with the hit stun; works on a good number of different percentages).
i think bair is where you can seperate the two; I honestly think falcon's is better. While Gdorf's has more power and knockback, it's not like falcon's lacks any; falcon's bair is powerful, and if spaced properly isn't easily punished on block. Falcon's bair is also AMAZING whilst utilizing his DJ; it's unpredictable and great for a number of different angles and situations.
Also, a big factor in why I (personally) prefer falcon's aerial game over ganondorfs is because of the way falcon's DJ tremendously aids his aerial game. The same can't be said for ganondorf; his second jump isn't very quick, nor as effective at speeding up his aerials in the same way that can be said about falcon.
I also think Nair cancel is a deciding factor while taking into account who belongs where. It goes into nearly anything; first hit of nair>>>jabjabgrab, first hit of nair>>>up b, first hit of nair>>>up tilt....not to mention more complex mix ups with it that are very worth while if you have any opponent reading skills whatsoever.
I also think Falcon has a better edge guarding game; ganondorf has tipman up airs that are a semi spike, but so does falcon, with an early KOing knee and two spikes to boot. Gdorf's dair is an amazing spike, but add in that falcon's recovery has tons more knockback than ganondorf's (see: almost never stage spikes compared to falcon's), and it quickly becomes apparent that falcon not only has more edge guarding potential, but also has a much, much easier time making his way back onto the stage safely.
This is all opinion of course, coming from someone who mained Gdorf for 4 months, and falcon for 5 or so.
TP
Smash Master
I won't argue much about aerials. According to Kosk (the best Ganon), Falcon has a better Fair and Nair, Ganon has the better Uair, Dair, and Bair. Your bair may go well with your mobility, but Ganon's kills at about 90% near the side. They both have equal startup time, as has been discussed.
This I wholeheartedly disagree with. You are greatly underestimating Ganon's Tipman. The proper Tipman method is to run to the end of the stage and do a RAR Uair, and start fastfalling ASAP. The result is a hitbox that sweeps from above the ledge to way below it. If it hits at any point in that time, it will kill most opponents. Ganon also still has his DJ, so getting back is no issue. Ganon's spike... I rarely use. Unless I am fighting MK, ROB, or one of the other few characters that won't die to Tipman, I never go for it. UpB stage spike really shouldn't be an issue, since it is easy to foresee and tech. However, you are correct in saying that Falcon does that better.
Iwan
Smash Ace
To be fair, I also left out Ganon's Up tilt, which I find to be a good edge guard every now and then (yes or no?).
And yea...that's what I'm saying; it's a toss up. They'll each be debated for a while in the SBR, I assume. The thing is that they each have drastic differences in their play styles that it's hard to compare the two and say "this one is better".
It really comes down to match ups i guess, but where that goes wrong is that I fully believe that the match ups for falcon and ganondorf are outdated; they aren't correct and until one of them moves up or down, I don't think they'll really be re-examined or tweaked.
Ranor469
Smash Apprentice
Nevermind, Ganon is clearly better.
Either way, Ganon and Falcon combined are going to have the last 2 spots on the tier list and I don't think this discussion is going to matter when it comes to people's opinions on each character. As far as which one goes where, I don't think that it matters in the grand scheme of the tier list, the higher tiers need to be looked at more closely for preciseness than these 2...
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