The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[iFudge]

everybody is on diddy's butt cause he has a even mu with diddy, ppl dont realize jiggs actually has a small adv on him( Correct me if im wrong), and weegee/peach have a 60:40 on him, even tho the peach mu is getting easier for diddy's since there are alot of more peach players to practice against.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If I hadn't been told Inui was superbanned I would have never noticed. It's a bit like putting WD-40 on a door that's been squeaking for a while and then just forgetting about it.

Wait, he's banned?

*goes off to set up party on the Ike boards*

I think PT is super underrated. Yeah I know he has really bad weaknesses, but mid tier characters in Brawl are all pretty much inviable on their own, so it isn't like he'd be so out of place in mid or upper mid.

Oh heck no.

He's only as high as he is currently for two reasons, and two reasons alone.

A) Reflex. Please notice Reflex hasn't been playing nearly as much as of late.

B) People haven't decided to play gay against PT. The moment they start playing gay against PT, he's done for in Mid-tier and he'll go back to low tier where he belongs. Once people start playing gay against PT, Squirtle will almost always have huge damage to deal with the moment he's switched back in. He'll start the match with 0% obviously, but when the pokemon before him is in play (Ivy I think), Ivy will be bounced around like a rag doll for 2 minutes, but not KO'd. Squirtle comes back in...and he's starting off with 100+% damage right from the get go. Suddenly, he can't afford to risk using his juggling game: he messes up, he's dead. Gimping game? See above. All he can do is flee, otherwise the moment he messes up, he's dead.

Effectively, you've made it so you'll only deal with Squirtle's game during the first part of the match. And unless he earns a huge lead in those 2 minutes, PT is screwed. In most cases, Charizard and Ivy can't win the match, they need Squirtle. Ironically enough, these will be used against Squirtle so he can't come back in and be able to do anything worthwhile.

Another thing you can do against Squirtle is just plank. Most characters can still make it back if they misstimed their jump and got hit with Watergun. Basically the only characters that couldn't pull this off would be DK, Bowser, Ganondorf, and Olimar, with Falcon and Ike being borderline and dependent on how much of the watergun hit them.

And as already mentioned: grab release fun against Squirtle. Excuse me as I walk you to the edge to follow up with a walk-off fair. And seeing as Squirtle ain't Wario when it comes to aerial acceleration, it's entirely possible to grab him.

^Can someone please play that gay against a PT for me so it's no longer pure unproven theorycrafting?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I would if there were any PT players around me...

either way, niddo, I feel your logic is flawed, if you get ivy to 140 and dont kill here, if you are actively trying not to hit her, that makes her invincible in a way, why would the ivy ever switch out, if he KNOWS you arent trying to hit her, she can just attack you with her crazy high knockback moves and kill you at like 80 and then switch to squirt. fatigue doesnt force you to switch (death does, but not fatigue) so if you are intentionally not killing one, than, they arent forced to switch to squirt at a high %

 

[Justblaze647]

Nonsense

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Exhibit A: The pokemon that comes before Squirtle is not Ivysaur.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Exhibit A: The pokemon that comes before Squirtle is not Ivysaur.

You did not notice the work "think" in brackets did you? I didn't know for sure, I had a 50-50 chance of being correct. Sue me. My points still stand.

either way, niddo, I feel your logic is flawed, if you get ivy to 140 and dont kill here, if you are actively trying not to hit her, that makes her invincible in a way, why would the ivy ever switch out, if he KNOWS you arent trying to hit her, she can just attack you with her crazy high knockback moves and kill you at like 80 and then switch to squirt. fatigue doesnt force you to switch (death does, but not fatigue) so if you are intentionally not killing one, than, they arent forced to switch to squirt at a high %

Several points:

I can still hit Ivy. Lets pretend Ivy does come before Squirtle as apparently I was wrong on that fact. I'm using Ike. I can still use my jabs, grabs, and aether against Ivy without fear of killing her. Other characters would have more moves they could still use. I can still hit her and throw her away without killing her.

I'm fairly sure fatigue does force switches, hence the two minute timer thingy....though I may be getting it mixed up. Anyone feel like turning on Brawl, picking PT, and fighting a level 1 CPU by basically running around and see if it eventually forces you to switch? >__>

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Stamina does not force switches.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Now you see why the Lucario mains are now pissed.

They can't use our characters in low/mid tier tournaments anymore, and they're just as unviable as they were before in mid/high tiers, so really they just nerfed themselves for absolutely no reason. D:

The bad ones like you who have no hope of accomplishing anything unless they're playing mid tiers with a character that's too good for mid tier, maybe.

I'm pretty sure the ones who actually rep Lucci were perfectly pleased to see him back up there.

EDIT: Oh geez, Nidtendo, you really gotta do your research next time. XD

 

[YagamiLight]

Oh come now, Niddo. You didn't just get the Pokemon order wrong, did you?

 

[da K.I.D.]

niddo, you need to go take a lap right now, i swear im not going to be able to take anything you say seriously for at least a day or two.

 

[Steeler]

lol

also you assume ivysaur is simply a punching bag that can't defend itself, which is not the case against any characters that are below A tier or so

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol

also you assume ivysaur is simply a punching bag that can't defend itself, which is not the case against any characters that are below A tier or so

Ivysaur is a punching bag. <_<

 

[Steeler]

against everyone above dedede, yeah

 

[demonictoonlink]

Ivy is SOOO underrated...
Like, I'm not saying he's even decent, but he isn't like switch or lose the stock instantly bad...Have people seen his frame data for Fsmash? That release along should make him at least kind of a threat.

 

[Steeler]

but he isn't like switch or lose the stock instantly bad...

he is against meta knight, marth, and a few other top tiers

he really doesn't struggle too much against mid tier and below, for the most part

 

[YagamiLight]

Does Ivysaur have any good match-ups besides stuff like Ganon, though? Genuinely curious, by the way.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

MK vs Ivysaur is a good matchup.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Does Ivysaur have any good match-ups besides stuff like Ganon, though? Genuinely curious, by the way.

Link's think ivysaur loses to Link, even if I disagree with that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does Ivysaur have any good match-ups besides stuff like Ganon, though? Genuinely curious, by the way.

I'd say so, yeah. Most of the matchups are fairly even, too.

Link's think ivysaur loses to Link, even if I disagree with that.

Link players are incorrect. :x

 

[Dark.Pch]

**** it I am bored. Relfex, where do you think Peach should be on the tier list or how good you think she is now. Idc what you say or even if you over do it with your comment. I am not gonna fight back or debate. I just wanna know. Those days are over for me.

 

[Conviction]

>.> Make Fox low tier please. We can be Low tier Metaknight with a projectile.

>.>

<.<

 

[Neon X]

It feels so good knowing Marth is slowly moving up again.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wow no one mentioned Ness? Ness gets destroyed by Ivy.

(Pokemon Trainer period lol)
Ness' only hope for Ivysaur is to gimp him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Stamina does not force switches.

...

.....

*secondaries Charizard*

Screw my plan, I can actually use Charizard without having to switch unless I die! Screw stamina!

Spoiler

Seriously, I was always under the understanding that if you left a pokemon out too long, you were eventually forced to switch because I thought that happened to me at one point. Maybe I slipped when hitting A and hit B? Man this is embarrassing...

 

[Justblaze647]

^Please don't theorycraft about a character you have no knowledge of...^

por favor

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^Please don't theorycraft about a character you have no knowledge of...^

por favor

I do have knowledge of PT. It was just hampered with misunderstood experiences with said character.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Stamina does affect a lot of stuff, but won't switch changes. It's really up to the player to see how they work around stamina. Some just keep using a character until they die and rack up damage (though albeit less than if they were at full strength) or switch whenever they can, though the latter option requires a much better understanding and skill with all three characters.

I really don't think that Squirtle is PT's only reason to use him, as Ivy does have some good spacing options and great knockback on a good amount of her attacks. Same with Charizard.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ivy sucks.
Charizard is somewhat better.
Squirtle is best.
As a whole they are okay.
Which means they suck.

 

[Justblaze647]

I think people over-estimate fatigue greatly... It does, undoubtedly, have effects on the pokemon...

But squirtle remains mobile enough while fatigued, decreased knockback doesn't really hamper him terribly.

Charizard can still kill while fatigued.

Ivy is just always bad. There's honestly no reason Ivy should even be out long enough to become fatigued, unless you really enjoy playing her.

Also, people need to lrn2pkmnswitch

 

[Steeler]

i think ivysaur is underestimated and charizard is overestimated a bit...they are both around the same level, which should be around top of F tier.

pknintendo is correct :x

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm just waiting for someone to go to MLG and **** everyone with him.

Likelihood of it happening? 0.000001%. Still a shot though, lol.

I mean, hell, I don't intentionally use Ivy. I'll usually keep her out the shortest to get Charizard out...I mean, there's really no use for her, as much as I hate to admit it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ivy is a spacing type of character that isn't fast enough to space well with a few good vertical KOing moves thrown in.

*continues to abuse Charizard's grab range and rock smash against CPUs for the joy of it*

 

[Spaztic Monkey]

I think that Tink should be a bit higher. I understand that he couldnt be top tier but he does have melee and ranged attacks, a zair, OK killing power (for his size) and OK speed. Matchups and tournament rankings I'm not sure about that as I havn't seen them in a while, but it seems like he could be high tier.
[Edit] He does not have a chain grab, TheMike, you are correct. I think that I am just a bit angry at the ordering. If they had kept their ordering the same I don't think that I would be typing this, but giving MK his own tier angered me a bit. I understand that he is the best character but he doesn't deserve his own tier.
@Realmz same thing I think that Pit should be bellow Tink but its the ordering that ticks me off

 

[TheMike]

Tink ... a chaingrab/zair

He does not have a chain grab. And IMO Toon Link isn't better than G&W, Olimar and the other high tiers. He could be better than Pit, but it won't make any significant change.

 

[Realmz]

You can't say how high a character should be. You have to say which characters they should be above, and provide reasoning. After you do that, the tier list can be formed and wherever they end up being is just how it is, be it lower or higher. Few understand this completely and just go on and on about who should be where =/

It's easy to say you see "potential" in one character. Well, potential compared to who, huh? Do you know the potential of other characters well enough to make such a claim?

 

[da K.I.D.]

You can't say how high a character should be. You have to say which characters they should be above, and provide reasoning. After you do that, the tier list can be formed and wherever they end up being is just how it is, be it lower or higher. Few understand this completely and just go on and on about who should be where =/

It's easy to say you see "potential" in one character. Well, potential compared to who, huh? Do you know the potential of other characters well enough to make such a claim?

Wow, this post is incredibly legit, very poignant for its short length. ive never been able to express this in so few words

 

[demonictoonlink]

he is against meta knight, marth, and a few other top tiers

Yeah...I kinda meant after A tier like you said.
:embarrass

edit: That one guy meant tether grab, not chain grab.

 

[Justblaze647]

Wow, this post is incredibly legit, very poignant for its short length. ive never been able to express this in so few words

hahaha Kid gets one upped...

Never seen that happen before...

 

[Deleted member]

Dear Niddo,
ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!!
HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY CLAIM THAT YOUR OPINION ON A CHARACTER IS CORRECT WHILE MOST DISAGREE WHEN YOU THINK IVYSAUR COMES BEFORE SQUIRTLE?

Also, fatigue does not in fact force you to switch. This kind of thing should happen o idk maybe 1 month after the game came out?
Not 2 years.
*dies*

 

[adumbrodeus]

Uh. That depends who you ask. I say it's 4/6. Thio would probably say it's like 1/9. Nick says it's even. The ZSS boards have like ten posters or less and none of us agree about anything.

You guys need complete frame data, I'm frustrated enough that I might do it at some point.


But I tend to agree with Snakeee on this, it seems like ZSS is way too punishable on shield to actually be a legitimate contender against MK.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Dear Niddo,
ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!!
HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY CLAIM THAT YOUR OPINION ON A CHARACTER IS CORRECT WHILE MOST DISAGREE WHEN YOU THINK IVYSAUR COMES BEFORE SQUIRTLE?

Also, fatigue does not in fact force you to switch. This kind of thing should happen o idk maybe 1 month after the game came out?
Not 2 years.
*dies*

Ya, a bit late on the flaming. >_>

I said I thought it forced switches because I messed up before and didn't know it.

The fact that I referred to this non-existent fatigue forced switching before in various talks about PT and nobody called me out on it doesn't help me realize I'm wrong either.

Now let me spam rocksmash in peace!