The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah Fsmash is punishable but so are a LOT of good moves, like MK's downsmash

-_-

If you don't even get why Fsmash is good then why am I even listening to any of you?

Why would Mikehaze spam Fsmash if it wasn't good?

It's a matter of HOW punishable, MK's f-smash gets punished by fast moves that result in a gradual damage increase and rarely kill.


Marth's f-smash gets punished by powerful moves that create large amounts of damage and kill, often at low percents. It also can be powershielded on reaction if you've got good reaction time.


Mike Haze uses it because he's got a very mind-game centric style, so he reads people into it, but it's much less reliable of a move then his usage would have you believe.



It's not horrible... but Marth almost always has better or more reliable options.

Oh, that's true.

*punishable by Ike's Fsmash on powershield, then? That's still pretty shoddy.

Problem with it is that it's way too weak for how punishable it is with a non-tipper hit. And a tipper hit has a shield advantage of -40. For the record, Ike's Fsmash has a shield advantage of -41. That's...horrible.

I need to double check the frame data but I'm pretty sure it is.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sorry, probably need a better example.

Still, you need an opening to use it, doesn't have amazing setups (like snake dthrow -> utilt), or safety so that you can avoid a counterkill move.

I'd say it's decent, and probably one of his near-staple kill moves, but it's not exactly the peak of Marth's ground game.

 

[Albert.]

It's a matter of HOW punishable, MK's f-smash gets punished by fast moves that result in a gradual damage increase and rarely kill.


Marth's f-smash gets punished by powerful moves that create large amounts of damage and kill, often at low percents. It also can be powershielded on reaction if you've got good reaction time.



Mike Haze uses it because he's got a very mind-game centric style, so he reads people into it, but it's much less reliable of a move then his usage would have you believe.



It's not horrible... but Marth almost always has better or more reliable options.



I need to double check the frame data but I'm pretty sure it is.

K

It's risk/reward OBVIOUSLY. and you guys are nitpicking like crazy. Why would a good marth be Fsmashing onto somebody's shield?

FSmash is like the biggest detterent EVER on the whole "don't be in big lag next to marth on the ground... he can walk to space tipper Fsmash and you're f***ed"

Regarding Mike- ok he's got a mind-game centric style

but he's also doing the best.

Soooo. People should be emulating him?

 

[adumbrodeus]

K

It's risk/reward OBVIOUSLY. and you guys are nitpicking like crazy. Why would a good marth be Fsmashing onto somebody's shield?

FSmash is like the biggest detterent EVER on the whole "don't be in big lag next to marth on the ground... he can walk to space tipper Fsmash and you're f***ed"

Gotta remember though, the spacing is very precise for it to be a real deterrent, in that respect, downsmash is generally better because it's faster, still kills low, and has a larger area of control.

But I agree, it is a deterrent.

Regarding Mike- ok he's got a mind-game centric style

but he's also doing the best.

Soooo. People should be emulating him?

Emulating mindgames skill isn't exactly easy, it's something you gradually acquire through experience. Regardless, I think there are better patterns at the top of the metagame.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Forward Smash
Hit: 10
End: 49
Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 6
ADVANTAGE: -32

Let me try to sort out a few misconceptions people might have about this move. -32 frames of advantage does not account for shielding dropping frames and fsmash hitting as soon as possible which is above marth's head.

If fsmash is spaced properly there is no way marth is hitting someone at frame 10 above his head. The move is going to be making contact further out in front of him. I do not know how long the hitbox is out for, but I will make a guess that the ideal frame of contact starts on frame 12. That reduces frame advantage to 30 frames. Include someone having to jump or drop shield includes another 7 frames. These brings frame advantage to around -23 frames after shield drop.

Due to fsmash's ability to push shields back many moves are not possible to punish fsmash. Many OoS moves happen within a very close range around the shield like aerials, or UpB. None of which really are able to have the reach of marth's fsmash. This means people have to drop shield and use some other move. Most other moves possible have start-up lag of around 4-6 frames on average. The time to punish marth's fsmash just got narrowed down to around 18 frames.

Might I add that due to fsmash's range and pushing shields back people will have to move in closer. That takes a few frames more frames. Add in 11 frames of human reaction time and you are looking at fsmash being just barely punishable in normal circumstances.

Fsmash is fairly safe agaisnt those that do not know how to punish it properly. To punish it properly requires you to use fast ranged attacks such as dash attack. However, many people do not do this. They stick with trying to drop shield and use some attack that is out of range of marth. Therefore, it goes unpunished.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Forward Smash
Hit: 10
End: 49
Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 6
ADVANTAGE: -32

Let me try to sort out a few misconceptions people might have about this move. -32 frames of advantage does not account for shielding dropping frames and fsmash hitting as soon as possible which is above marth's head.

If fsmash is spaced properly there is no way marth is hitting someone at frame 10 above his head. The move is going to be making contact further out in front of him. I do not know how long the hitbox is out for, but I will make a guess that the ideal frame of contact starts on frame 12. That reduces frame advantage to 30 frames. Include someone having to jump or drop shield includes another 7 frames. These brings frame advantage to around -23 frames after shield drop.

Due to fsmash's ability to push shields back many moves are not possible to punish fsmash. Many OoS moves happen within a very close range around the shield like aerials, or UpB. None of which really are able to have the reach of marth's fsmash. This means people have to drop shield and use some other move. Most other moves possible have start-up lag of around 4-6 frames on average. The time to punish marth's fsmash just got narrowed down to around 18 frames.

Might I add that due to fsmash's range and pushing shields back people will have to move in closer. That takes a few frames more frames. Add in 11 frames of human reaction time and you are looking at fsmash being just barely punishable in normal circumstances.

Fsmash is fairly safe agaisnt those that do not know how to punish it properly. To punish it properly requires you to use fast ranged attacks such as dash attack. However, many people do not do this. They stick with trying to drop shield and use some attack that is out of range of marth.

...

You forgot the tipper data, for whatever reason, shielding a tipper is worse frame-wise for marth in all of his moves.

The advantage for tipper is -40, and since it can't kill for **** unless tippered, that's a problem.

 

[Albert.]

Forward Smash
Hit: 10
End: 49
Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 6
ADVANTAGE: -32

Let me try to sort out a few misconceptions people might have about this move. -32 frames of advantage does not account for shielding dropping frames and fsmash hitting as soon as possible which is above marth's head.

If fsmash is spaced properly there is no way marth is hitting someone at frame 10 above his head. The move is going to be making contact further out in front of him. I do not know how long the hitbox is out for, but I will make a guess that the ideal frame of contact starts on frame 12. That reduces frame advantage to 30 frames. Include someone having to jump or drop shield includes another 7 frames. These brings frame advantage to around -23 frames after shield drop.

Due to fsmash's ability to push shields back many moves are not possible to punish fsmash. Many OoS moves happen within a very close range around the shield like aerials, or UpB. None of which really are able to have the reach of marth's fsmash. This means people have to drop shield and use some other move. Most other moves possible have start-up lag of around 4-6 frames on average. The time to punish marth's fsmash just got narrowed down to around 18 frames.

Might I add that due to fsmash's range and pushing shields back people will have to move in closer. That takes a few frames more frames. Add in 11 frames of human reaction time and you are looking at fsmash being just barely punishable in normal circumstances.

Fsmash is fairly safe agaisnt those that do not know how to punish it properly. To punish it properly requires you to use fast ranged attacks such as dash attack. However, many people do not do this. They stick with trying to drop shield and use some attack that is out of range of marth. Therefore, it goes unpunished.

Nobody is saying it's hard to punish.

I'm saying its worth it

Why would Marth even use it if he's at kill percents? Marth shouldn't be using the move if he's over 100. But he can be when they're at like 50-120 to kill/set up edgeguards. After that people go into their "I'm not gonna get hit by anything slower then 7 frames or grab" mode.

Hopefully you know what I'm talking about.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not to mention that Marth's dtilt in conjunction with fair is basically what marth only needs to fight like all of the lower half of the cast lol.

This.

Oh, that's true.

*punishable by Ike's Fsmash on powershield, then? That's still pretty shoddy.

Problem with it is that it's way too weak for how punishable it is with a non-tipper hit. And a tipper hit has a shield advantage of -40. For the record, Ike's Fsmash has a shield advantage of -41. That's...horrible.

Ike can just use F-tilt. Just as good, just not as much of an F-Bomb.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

...

You forgot the tipper data, for whatever reason, shielding a tipper is worse frame-wise for marth in all of his moves.

The advantage for tipper is -40, and since it can't kill for **** unless tippered, that's a problem.

I'm trying to be realistic about this. Tipping with fsmash is difficult to an extent. It's more likely the move with either be wiffed and missed, or it will be non-tipped. That is why I didnt' include tipper data. We all know it's worse on tip. I didn't have to point that out.

What I was trying to point out was the fact that fsmash often goes unpunished due to people needing to use fast ranged attacks instead of a simple OoS aerial or grab to punish it which is why people think it's good. Even dsmash on shield is pretty bad.

It's more of a get the heck off me move than a killer when not tipped.

Nobody is saying it's hard to punish.

I'm saying its worth it

Why would Marth even use it if he's at kill percents? Marth shouldn't be using the move if he's over 100. But he can be when they're at like 50-120 to kill/set up edgeguards. After that people go into their "I'm not gonna get hit by anything slower then 7 frames or grab" mode.

Hopefully you know what I'm talking about.

In a way I understand that. It's a kill move that has potiential to be safe, but needs the proper set-up for it to be.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm trying to be realistic about this. Tipping with fsmash is difficult to an extent. It's more likely the move with either be wiffed and missed, or it will be non-tipped. That is why I didnt' include tipper data. We all know it's worse on tip. I didn't have to point that out.

What I was trying to point out was the fact that fsmash often goes unpunished due to people needing to use fast ranged attacks instead of a simple OoS aerial or grab to punish it which is why people think it's good. Even dsmash on shield is pretty bad.

It's more of a get the heck off me move than a killer when not tipped.

Untippered it generally doesn't have enough shield pushback to really be safe, and that close it gets beaten framewise too easily, and it's still in powershield frames. Retreating fair does the same thing but better.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sure it does, if you wanna monopolize Brawl. By that logic, everyone would be playing MK, because he's a trillion times better and more useful and more practical than every other character. I'm just going to assume you play Wario and Zelda, based off your sig....

Why don't you play MK, since he's you know, that much better than the characters you play???

I play the characters who I feel fit my play style the best. I've tried MK my MK is balls LoL it's pretty sad. Considering I failed as a Marth main switching to MK wouldn't help me at all.

Jab is balls?!

In what universe?


He's more disjointed then all of the above however, and most of them are a lot more punishable.

His jab isn't good plz stop acting as though it is LoL.

Snake is not anywhere close to MK's level.

DDD is steadily dropping because his main advantage is hard countering more and more characters that are turning out to be useless anyway.

Na Snake is right up there with MK. I could see your point about d3.

ICs, I think it's a matter of people not fighting them properly.

Or it could be a matter of the IC being extremely gay and being extremely unfun to play against.

Because he can do it easily from the ground to counter grounded options, why else?

That's silly TBH then someone like peach ground game would included her float shenanigans? Na that don't sit right with me you need to redefine your definition my dude.

My point is you're theorycrafting it, so it's a mite hypocritical, not saying you're wrong because of it, but if you're discrediting theorycrafting, winning in that area discredits other arguments that use it.

It's not really theory craft. If you look at Zelda's tools compare them to the majority of the cast. Then play each of these characters and play Zelda. You'll realize that her tools are no where near as bad as people make them out to be. But when someone like let's see Dark M does well with her he gets ****ted on because of his region. I've seen a lot of the Zelda vids and you can see the tools she has.

What's the point of playing any character that's not MK honestly? MK outclasses everyone by a wide margin.

MK certainly isn't exactly like marth, but in many ways he is a better marth, so I get where you're coming.

That doesn't make him relatively worse however, and conversely, the assumption that he deserves his spot on the tierlist doesn't mean he's not bad.

Because MK isn't the magic cure to solving everyone's scrubbiness in brawl. Some people can pick up mK and **** with him others can't. It's no where near as easy as people make it out to be also who the hell wants to play dittos all day long ?

Snake and Diddy, yes, but when fine = "less then soft-countered", I don't think that's saying much.


Falco and Wario are overrated against MK IMO, MK just option selects them too badly.

I don't think the FAlco match up is overrated and most of the Warios consider it to be 40-60 for MK. The match up is pretty gay I need to get better at that though.

The people who are saying Marth's ground game is bad should just never talk again.

You guys are acting like a four-frame transcendent priority move that deals 10-15% damage every time (dancing blades) is bad

Did I really just have to explain how DB is good?

Did you guys forget FSmash?

Dancing blade isn't a good move unless you use it to punish with. It's not safe on shield and that transcendent priority blows especially when people have moves that come out faster if not at the same same speed. Ugh that move is just meh TBH good to punish with though use it for that only and don't do it on someone's shield.

LoL Fsmash so many things wrong with that but since it's Albert I'm pretty sure you already got roasted for this.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Untippered it generally doesn't have enough shield pushback to really be safe, and that close it gets beaten framewise too easily, and it's still in powershield frames. Retreating fair does the same thing but better.

It's funny still how many times I have seen people try to punish untipped Fsmash by attempting to grab it or use the wrong spaced moved OoS to punish it. If it's not punished right away, you are not punishing marth.

Same way people complain about Snake's Ftilt. It's entirely punishable and is really a horrible move on block, but most do not punish is right.

I would rather stick with poking and proding like you said with Fair or Dtilt and try to kill someone offstage and wait for the chance to get the kill with Fsmash/Dsmash than use it more often.

 

[Ripple]

Same way people complain about Snake's Ftilt. It's entirely punishable and is really a horrible move on block, but most do not punish is right.

.[/COLOR]

wow...

snakes f-tilt is almost completely safe on block. if the first part hits your shield you are pushed too far away to grab if he does not choose to follow it up with the second half.

if you choose to attack OOS to punish it snake has the option to continue with the second half and hit you out of your attack or he can not continue it and run away or run up grab you, or even shield your attack.

snakes f-tilt is very very safe on block

 

[HeroMystic]

...

You forgot the tipper data, for whatever reason, shielding a tipper is worse frame-wise for marth in all of his moves.

The most logical solution is hitting with the tip puts Marth in a different animation due to epic hitlag on the opponent. The Devs just didn't account for when it's shielded. Or maybe they did.

Actually, all smash attacks tipped with Marth include epic hitlag. If the above is the case with F-Smash then it's probably the same for the other smashes as well.

What I was trying to point out was the fact that fsmash often goes unpunished due to people needing to use fast ranged attacks instead of a simple OoS aerial or grab to punish it which is why people think it's good. Even dsmash on shield is pretty bad.

I dunno about other characters, but Mario can punish this easily with F-Smash which is a 15-frame move. The move doesn't need to be fast in order to punish Marth's F-Smash. The player just needs to react accordingly.

This is also one of the few instances where spotdodge is better than shielding, though Powershield still wins of course.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Ripple:
ZSS can grab Snake on FTilt block :D

 

[Albert.]

wow...

snakes f-tilt is almost completely safe on block. if the first part hits your shield you are pushed too far away to grab if he does not choose to follow it up with the second half.

if you choose to attack OOS to punish it snake has the option to continue with the second half and hit you out of your attack or he can not continue it and run away or run up grab you, or even shield your attack.

snakes f-tilt is very very safe on block

Good post.

How was this not obvious to everybody? xD

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

snakes f-tilt is almost completely safe on block. if the first part hits your shield you are pushed too far away to grab if he does not choose to follow it up with the second half.

if you choose to attack OOS to punish it snake has the option to continue with the second half and hit you out of your attack or he can not continue it and run away or run up grab you, or even shield your attack.

Shield -> Spotdodge.

According to EY's snake data it start's on frame 4 and ends on frame 32. According to SuSa's data regarding block and hitstun he found Ftilt on shields does 2 frames of shieldstun and 6 frames of hitlag. Most characters spotdodges last 25 frames.

Any 2nd ftilt hit attempt will be missed in the frames of the spotdodge. And spotdodge will end before 1st hit of ftilt is over with. The frame advantage here turns out in favor of the defender, but is still fairly neutral.

It might be safe, but it is still fairly bad if the best it can do is end up neutral.

I dunno about other characters, but Mario can punish this easily with F-Smash which is a 15-frame move. The move doesn't need to be fast in order to punish Marth's F-Smash. The player just needs to react accordingly.

Mario's Fsmash has enough range to it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

His jab isn't good plz stop acting as though it is LoL.

It's not amazing, but it's fast, pretty safe, and works as a GFO move. It also works well as a ledgetrap. It's definitely useful.

Na Snake is right up there with MK. I could see your point about d3.

Why? MK MUs>Snake, MK's tournament results>Snakes.

MK also makes a good amount of the cast nonviable on his own and defines what characters are viable. MK is in a class of his own.

That's silly TBH then someone like peach ground game would included her float shenanigans? Na that don't sit right with me you need to redefine your definition my dude.

That's the point, saying a character's ground game tells us literally nothing about whether they can actually compete on the ground otherwise.

It's not really theory craft. If you look at Zelda's tools compare them to the majority of the cast. Then play each of these characters and play Zelda. You'll realize that her tools are no where near as bad as people make them out to be. But when someone like let's see Dark M does well with her he gets ****ted on because of his region. I've seen a lot of the Zelda vids and you can see the tools she has.

Looking at tools and comparing them is the definition of theorycraft.

Because MK isn't the magic cure to solving everyone's scrubbiness in brawl. Some people can pick up mK and **** with him others can't. It's no where near as easy as people make it out to be also who the hell wants to play dittos all day long ?

And what does that have to do with what I say?

I don't think the FAlco match up is overrated and most of the Warios consider it to be 40-60 for MK. The match up is pretty gay I need to get better at that though.

MK ***** him between melee and jab range, and MK still option selects him very easily even there, plus he gets gimped like nobody's business.

Dancing blade isn't a good move unless you use it to punish with. It's not safe on shield and that transcendent priority blows especially when people have moves that come out faster if not at the same same speed. Ugh that move is just meh TBH good to punish with though use it for that only and don't do it on someone's shield.

Except it's fast, autocombos, has 1 frame of hitlag (take that SDI) and is very disjointed. Also, great for adapting momentum in the air, it's primary purpose is and will also be punishing.

It's funny still how many times I have seen people try to punish untipped Fsmash by attempting to grab it or use the wrong spaced moved OoS to punish it. If it's not punished right away, you are not punishing marth.

Same way people complain about Snake's Ftilt. It's entirely punishable and is really a horrible move on block, but most do not punish is right.

I would rather stick with poking and proding like you said with Fair or Dtilt and try to kill someone offstage and wait for the chance to get the kill with Fsmash/Dsmash than use it more often.

Because people are doing it wrong doesn't make the move good.

If you don't know how to punish f-smash and it's reliable against you, you're generally the worse player.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Shield -> Spotdodge.

According to EY's snake data it start's on frame 4 and ends on frame 32. According to SuSa's data regarding block and hitstun he found Ftilt on shields does 2 frames of shieldstun and 6 frames of hitlag. Most characters spotdodges last 25 frames.

Any 2nd ftilt hit attempt will be missed in the frames of the spotdodge. And spotdodge will end before 1st hit of ftilt is over with. The frame advantage here turns out in favor of the defender, but is still fairly neutral.

It might be safe, but it is still fairly bad if the best it can do is end up neutral.



Mario's Fsmash has enough range to it.

Don't forget that the snake player can delay the timing of the second ftilt so that he will still hit you even if you spot dodge.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you didnt account for the fact that if you spotdodge snakes f tilt1, he can just wait for the end of it and f tilt1 again...

for most characters, being at a neutral stance inside snakes f tilt range isnt neutral at all lol.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Best thing to do is take the first hit and SDI towards snake and you'll end up behind him.

@Adum whatever you say I'm tired of going back and forth with you. Just remember MK is the most played character. Thus leading to the tourney results. You also asked why everyone doesn't just gravitate towards MK because everyone can't play MK at high levels it's as simple as that. Dancing blades is only good to punish with I'm pretty sure I said that. Oh yeah about the Zelda thing I told you to pick up everyone and play the match ups not just compare. But whatever OBV you don't read my full post or understand what I'm getting at. So I will not continue with you at all.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@Adum whatever you say I'm tired of going back and forth with you. Just remember MK is the most played character. Thus leading to the tourney results. You also asked why everyone doesn't just gravitate towards MK because everyone can't play MK at high levels it's as simple as that. Dancing blades is only good to punish with I'm pretty sure I said that. Oh yeah about the Zelda thing I told you to pick up everyone and play the match ups not just compare. But whatever OBV you don't read my full post or understand what I'm getting at. So I will not continue with you at all.

And what I'm saying is tournament results or not, MK simply has the best tools, and is by and far above the cast. Oh, which reminds me, there's a clear correlation between character choice and results in the metagame.


As far as Zelda, I was pointing out that your method INCLUDES theorycrafting, not that it was the sole method.

Regardless, your personal experience with a character =/= high level play.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

you didnt account for the fact that if you spotdodge snakes f tilt1, he can just wait for the end of it and f tilt1 again...

I was not talking about spotdoding ftilt 1. Shield Ftilt 1 hit, then spotdodge afterwards to avoid possibility of 2nd hit of Ftilt and for it to end before Ftilt ends.

And the thing about with the delay of the 2nd hit is sort of unproven right now. 2nd hit comes out as early as frame 11 from the moment ftilt is started, but how long the frame window is there for you to delay I cannot find anything.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i may have been mistaken in what you were refering to, but the fact of waiting and just f tilting after your spotdodge still stands. thats a terrible idea.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

And what I'm saying is tournament results or not, MK simply has the best tools, and is by and far above the cast. Oh, which reminds me, there's a clear correlation between character choice and results in the metagame.


As far as Zelda, I was pointing out that your method INCLUDES theorycrafting, not that it was the sole method.

Regardless, your personal experience with a character =/= high level play.

I'm not even going to stunt I don't understand what any of those charts mean.

@xeylode I don't know how big the frame window for snake to delay ftilt1 to ftilt2 but I know that he can do that.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@xeylode I don't kow how big the frame window for snake to delay ftilt1 to ftilt2 but I know that he can do that.

Well, a guessing game was never much fun for anyone, even snake

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not even going to stunt I don't understand what any of those charts mean.

Basically it establishes that there is a direct correlation, if you want further explanation, ask specific questions, I can answer them.

 

[Chuee]

Falco doesn't get gimped by MK.................
Also snake makes more of the cast unviable than MK does.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Also snake makes more of the cast unviable than MK does.

Now, I would like to see some prove of that o.0

 

[Justblaze647]

I'm not even going to stunt I don't understand what any of those charts mean.

I'll teach you how to stunt

 

[Conviction]

Falco doesn't get gimped by MK.................
Also snake makes more of the cast unviable than MK does.

1) How doesn't MK gimp Falco? I can get Falco mains that agree MK gimps Falco. Falco I say is the easy to gimp out of the spacies. MK can easily force him into a position to force to use FireBird which equals gimp. Cause if Fox can gimp Falco by just Daring him when offstage, MK can gimp him.

2) What I second this motion for seeing Snake makes more of the cast unviable.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Falco is very gimpable by MK, but it's not easy. You have to get him far below the ledge line.

Happened to me a lot LAST YEAR.

 

[Conviction]

Falco is very gimpable by MK, but it's not easy. You have to get him far below the ledge line.

Happened to me a lot LAST YEAR.

AUGH me no like you mister

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

AUGH me no like you mister

Seriously you have to force a firebird on a decent falco or else he can make it, unless he's near that blastzone.

 

[Chuee]

Iblis did you really just say Falco is the easiest spacie to gimp?
*sigh*

 

[Conviction]

*Changes the subject*

He has the worst up B >.>"

I still say MK gimps him. Don't you change the subject son.

Lol my bad about the easiest thing. I don't have to really worry since I play Fox.

Wolf is my final answer.

 

[C~Dog]

I'm sorry, the correct answer was Fox.

Fox.

 

[Chuee]

MK shouldn't be gimping him that much at all.
His up-b doesn't really matter, he doesn't really need to use it unless he's below the stage. Which doesn't happen that often.

 

[HeroMystic]

To be honest as long as you're not Link, Olimar, or Ike(borderline) you shouldn't be getting gimped much at all.

 

[Justblaze647]

To be honest as long as you're not Link, Ivysaur, Ganon, Olimar, or Ike(borderline) you shouldn't be getting gimped much at all.

Fix'd for accuracy