The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[adumbrodeus]

You know, using fancy words doesnt change the fact that you explained absolutely nothing here. Its obvious how one would attempt to measure the effectiveness of mindgames, but you forget it involves making the ridiculous assumption about how anyone could possibly accurately weigh these choices. Youre gonna need A LOT more than pretentious typing to convince anyone here you can quantify mindgame potential.

You might wanna read the thread I created before making assumptions about the accuracy. Now if you have any commentary about it feel free to make it.


Interestingly enough, talked to EL about this, turns out SF already had something like this, not sure how sophisticated it is, but turns out, not without precedent.

And really... an 11 frame move is fast enough to beat out most peoples reaction times.
Its one of the few moves in the game that is actually long ranged enough and fast enough (on start up) to punish just about any preconceived whiffs. Including MKs fsmash and ftilts. Including stutter steps makes it possible for Marth to punish Lucarios fsmash whiffs and I believe d3s ftilt whiffs as well.
The added fact you can stutter step from it easily means you can proactively adjust spacing to it, people should realise how amazing this actually is on a move that comes out that fast. Really, stutter stepping backwards before a punishing/prediction fsmash is GOLD; people naturally space themselves within tipper range... marths full stutter step is like half the length of his sword... (meaning for 1-5 extra frames of start up you are feasibly quintupling [is this a word?] his tipper range). Near max range fsmash is REALLY HARD for most characters to punish on block too. Some MARTHS WILL use fsmash as shield pressure (especially after initial shield push back from a ff aerial).

Marth and Falco probably have the best stutter step fsmashes in high tier. Both have great fox trots.

Most being the operative word, that said, I think a lot more people have the reaction time then you would expect, and as people learn the MU better more will be able to shield it on reaction. Not saying the MU is poorly understood relatively, merely that it's difficult to notice it on the first possible frame.


Regardless, even when not powershielded, characters that matter pretty much all can punish it effectively, snake, Wario, MK, Falco, etc.



Overall however, I think you're overrating it, but I'm not saying it's not useful, just not as amazing as you seem to believe it is.

A direct correlation between what?

Between character choice and tournament results.

 

[ShadowLink84]

IIRC, Sonic can stutterstep Fsmash Marth.

7 frames initial dash
1 frame before the Fsmash
17 frames after Fsmash

Sonic's initial dash is HUGE.
It is a bit bigger than Marth's FSmash


Edit: ****it DJ its 30 frames to get to top speed not 3!
Still bull **** fast though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You might wanna read the thread I created before making assumptions about the accuracy. Now if you have any commentary about it feel free to make it.


Interestingly enough, talked to EL about this, turns out SF already had something like this, not sure how sophisticated it is, but turns out, not without precedent.

I don't think linking to a thread you made proves your point.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't think linking to a thread you made proves your point.

That is right, clicking the link and reading it would.

 

[fkacyan]

That is right, clicking the link and reading it would.

Screw reading, that ****'s too hard.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Screw reading, that ****'s too hard.

How are you managing to write?

 

[Nefarious B]

Make sure to wave at that sarcasm as it flies right over your head

 

[fkacyan]

How are you managing to write?

Either this is the best counter-sarcasm ever or...

 

[Spelt]

Make sure to wave at that sarcasm as it flies right over your head

My sarcasm doesn't know how to fly.
it just limps past you with grave remorse when you don't understand.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

My sarcasm doesn't know how to fly.
it just limps past you with grave remorse when you don't understand.

Sarcasm can't limp. It has no legs.

 

[Conviction]

Personafication.

 

[Shaya]

IIRC, Sonic can stutterstep Fsmash Marth.

7 frames initial dash
1 frame before the Fsmash
17 frames after Fsmash

Sonic's initial dash is HUGE.
It is a bit bigger than Marth's FSmash


Edit: ****it DJ its 30 frames to get to top speed not 3!
Still bull **** fast though.

Sonics stutter step goes up to 7 frames? Thats cool.
How large is sonics stutter step though? I tipper fsmash sonics shield from time to time and the best they usually get is a dash attack/dash grab.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Either this is the best counter-sarcasm ever or...

It is the best counter-sarcasm.
What did you think I was serious?
O-o

Sonics stutter step goes up to 7 frames? Thats cool.
How large is sonics stutter step though? I tipper fsmash sonics shield from time to time and the best they usually get is a dash attack/dash grab.

I dislike it when you speak in such a manner because you clearly know the intent of my statement.

The point of the manner is that Sonic's stutter step Fsmash is quick enough to punish Marth's tipper Fsmash.

It punishes the regular Fsmash when powershielded.

Sonic's initial Dash+stutterstep has greater range than Marth's Fsmash.

The reason a Sonic user hasn't Fsmashed you after you tipper their shield, is simply because of the fact, they didn't Fsmash you after you tippered their shield.
It is fully within capability.

On a regular Fsmash from Marth, Sonic can punish mainly with his dash attack, Ftilt (depending on spacing), dash shield grab. uair can be used iirc.
He cannot punish with his own Fsmash because its (pardon the pun), too slow.


NUMBER TIME!
2 frames= shield stun(or did I misread?)
7 frames=shield drop
initial dash 7 frames=marth's Fsmash range.
1 frame=point in which Sonic turns the other way to Fsmash int he other direction.
17 frames=Fsmash

So 34 frames.
That isn't enough to punish a regular Fsmash, but it is enough to punish a tipper Fsmash.

powershielding of course allows him to punish both.

Edit: Why did you ask me how big Sonic's stutter step was when I said in the original post that it was a bit bigger than Marth's smash?

 

[fkacyan]

It is the best counter-sarcasm.
What did you think I was serious?
O-o

I can never tell. That emote thar is the first I've ever seen in any of your posts, so every post looks like it has the same tone.

lawls

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sarcasm can't limp. It has no legs.

and this is when that running joke, ran a bit too far...

Sonics stutter step goes up to 7 frames? Thats cool.
How large is sonics stutter step though? I tipper fsmash sonics shield from time to time and the best they usually get is a dash attack/dash grab.

1. dash attack and dash grab are way simpler and easier to time and execute than stutterstep f smash out of shield. because of the high level skill needed to pull that off, its not attempted often. since the punishment for not pulling it off correctly is a shield an punish or a DPM FP to the face.

2. unless marth is going to die from the f smash, grab is a better option anyway. it does as much or more damage and its a better setup for more damage.

 

[Browny]

eh adum I read that thread and like I see what youre doing... but its pretty futile dont you think? I initially judged it coz I think its pretty **** obvious how one would attempt to weigh mindgame potential, but I guess a lot of players dont really think too much about the theory side of things and might form an opinion without knowing about it lol. However it doesnt change the fact that you still cant actually do it to any reliable degree. At the end of the day its still pure opinion, and helps people in matchups just as much as telling them its a 60:40 (ie; doesnt). For example I could argue that simply standing still with sonic is a mindgame potential. people always expect you to run at them into an attack, but simply camping outside attack range is a legit strategy. Pretty much every single aspect of a matchup can be called a mindgame somehow. Something so incredibly basic, has little damage/punishment associated with it, yet can affect some matchups significantly while others not so much, no one can put a number to that. in the same way you couldnt put any numbers to your examples.

 

[Shaya]

Sonics 7 frame initial dash outranging Marths fsmash doesnt mean it outranges marths fsmash and shield knockback..
Ive mentioned shield knockback maybe FIVE HUNDRED TIMES now, but every post talking about what can punish it acts like it doesnt exist... lol...

If sonic DOES outrange marths fsmash + shieldknockback in his 7 frame initial dash, then state so.
All you are saying atm is theoretically Sonic can stutter step max range to an fsmash that would come out before Marth can shield.
Doesnt mean it would cover the range.

 

[stingers]

everyone knows that sonic will always powershield marth's fsmash. it's just assumed, stop being such a scrub shaya.

 

[adumbrodeus]

eh adum I read that thread and like I see what youre doing... but its pretty futile dont you think? I initially judged it coz I think its pretty **** obvious how one would attempt to weigh mindgame potential, but I guess a lot of players dont really think too much about the theory side of things and might form an opinion without knowing about it lol. However it doesnt change the fact that you still cant actually do it to any reliable degree. At the end of the day its still pure opinion, and helps people in matchups just as much as telling them its a 60:40 (ie; doesnt). For example I could argue that simply standing still with sonic is a mindgame potential. people always expect you to run at them into an attack, but simply camping outside attack range is a legit strategy. Pretty much every single aspect of a matchup can be called a mindgame somehow. Something so incredibly basic, has little damage/punishment associated with it, yet can affect some matchups significantly while others not so much, no one can put a number to that. in the same way you couldnt put any numbers to your examples.

Doing nothing is actually the mostly elementary option in these situations.


Regardless, it's difficult and complex, which is why I'm hoping to get a project together to generalize this (presumably using a great deal of calculus and linear algebra), but at the moment it's more of a guide for recognizing a character's general mindgames potential


So, it's really not subjective, it's just too complex to apply fully at least in practical terms. Still, I've found it useful to apply in common scenarios, the neutral position especially, but also positions with limited options, that takes a lot of the legwork out.



For example, I did a write-up of the Marth/Ganon using this system, and it worked out pretty well. It certainly wasn't as precise as I would like, but it certainly helped in removing a great deal of the subjectivity from the discussion.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I can never tell. That emote thar is the first I've ever seen in any of your posts, so every post looks like it has the same tone.

lawls

XD.
I get thatalot.

Sonics 7 frame initial dash outranging Marths fsmash doesnt mean it outranges marths fsmash and shield knockback..
Ive mentioned shield knockback maybe FIVE HUNDRED TIMES now, but every post talking about what can punish it acts like it doesnt exist... lol...

The pushback that is caused by the Fsmash is lesser to the distance that Sonic stutter steps.
So it makes up for the pushback that is caused.

S
If sonic DOES outrange marths fsmash + shieldknockback in his 7 frame initial dash, then state so.
All you are saying atm is theoretically Sonic can stutter step max range to an fsmash that would come out before Marth can shield.
Doesnt mean it would cover the range.

Actually it does.
Otherwise why would I mention it?
You should know me better than that Shaya.
=(

everyone knows that sonic will always powershield marth's fsmash. it's just assumed, stop being such a scrub shaya.

I am honestly confused as to why you said this.
-.-

 

[Shaya]

Alright ShadowLink <3.

Still as was pointed out, its a complex punishment option that wouldnt be practiced too often considering how rare it is for Marth to be using his tipper fsmash shield tricks (as in, definitely a very minute fraction compared to the normal fairs, nairs, dtilts, jabs).

 

[ShadowLink84]

Alright ShadowLink <3.

Still as was pointed out, its a complex punishment option that wouldnt be practiced too often considering how rare it is for Marth to be using his tipper fsmash shield tricks (as in, definitely a very minute fraction compared to the normal fairs, nairs, dtilts, jabs).

True, but I would still suggest going for it whenever possible.
Seriously I am going to pull that off in turnament.
All you hear is
BING

GO!

UWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

You're too slooooow!

 

[Shaya]

yeah but if you are too slow you get DOLPHIN SLASHED
and a

HEY EVERYONE, LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[ShadowLink84]

yeah but if you are too slow you get DOLPHIN SLASHED
and a

HEY EVERYONE, LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I DI like a pro.
Going for that down B momentum cancel.

 

[Kitamerby]

Not like it matters

Everytime Marth Fsmashes, Sonic should just be doing this anyways.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sonic's Stutter-Step is a close second to Mario's, and Mario's Stutter-step F-Smash is the best in the game.

The leanback during the start-up is the reason why both character's F-Smashes out-range Marth's.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sonic's Stutter-Step is a close second to Mario's, and Mario's Stutter-step F-Smash is the best in the game.

The leanback during the start-up is the reason why both character's F-Smashes out-range Marth's.

The lean back has nothing to do with it. If you stand at the range of Marth's tipper range and have him fsmash then stand at the however far Sonics or Mario's fsmash is. I'm almost certain Marth's Fsmash will out range them. That's not to see you can't do a stutter step fsmash have marth whiff then connect with sonic or mario's fsmash.

 

[Browny]

surely ganon and falcons stutter step outrange sonics...

and the 'salmon smash' lol (youtube it)

 

[Kitamerby]

Sonic has the absolute most gigantic leanback of any fsmash in Brawl iirc though.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser????

 

[HeroMystic]

The lean back has nothing to do with it. If you stand at the range of Marth's tipper range and have him fsmash then stand at the however far Sonics or Mario's fsmash is. I'm almost certain Marth's Fsmash will out range them. That's not to see you can't do a stutter step fsmash have marth whiff then connect with sonic or mario's fsmash.

The leanback has everything to do with it. It's the reason why they have range boosts in the first place due to the special animation. Mario's and Sonic's Stutter-Step F-Smash outranging Marth is a given fact.

Falcon doesn't really have a stutter step by the way. The F-Smash animation just allows it to act like one since he takes a huge step forward regardless of where he's facing. Ganon does have a stutter-step though.

TBH it's hard to see which one has the longest-range from just a visual glance. Ganon's does compete however, but Sonic's compete due to the range of the F-Smash itself (and the range is deceiving). The range contest really depends on how disjointed the F-Smash is.

If you count Falcon's as a Stutter-step though, he outranges all of them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The lean back has nothing to do with it. If you stand at the range of Marth's tipper range and have him fsmash then stand at the however far Sonics or Mario's fsmash is. I'm almost certain Marth's Fsmash will out range them. That's not to see you can't do a stutter step fsmash have marth whiff then connect with sonic or mario's fsmash.

You know nothing.

I've tested this subject THOROUGHLY.

Mario's reverse F-smash and Sonic's reverse F-smash both outrange Marth's F-smash.

What I mean is

Put Marth so that he's slightly whiffing F-smash against Mario and Sonic's back.

Hit the C stick towards Marth with Mario and Sonic while he stands still.

They BOTH outdistance him.

Seriously I can't believe people don't know this.

To be precise, the only F-smashes that outrange Mario's reverse F-smash are Wolf, Falco, DDD, and ZSS. And it's not even by that much.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS' fsmash outranges Mario's reverse fsmash by, like, a lot. But it sucks, so it doesn't matter.

 

[HeroMystic]

If by a lot you mean an inch, then yes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ZSS' fsmash outranges Mario's reverse fsmash by, like, a lot. But it sucks, so it doesn't matter.

No, in terms of raw linear distance you can stand away from your opponent and still connect your hitbox when inputing the C stick, it's not that big of a difference. Trust me. The fact Mario can outdistance ZSS's F-smash by doing the Dashdance cancel stutter step (dash forward a tiny step, turnaround, reverse F-smash), that should give you an idea how massive the range on Mario's F-smash is.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I still dont think that stutterstepping should be included in "X character's f smash range."

 

[A2ZOMG]

Neither do I. All the data I'm explaining however refers to standing range, how far you can reach by just hitting the C stick (doesn't matter which direction you're facing).

 

[hotgarbage]

Neither do I. All the data I'm explaining however refers to standing range, how far you can reach by just hitting the C stick (doesn't matter which direction you're facing).

....and if you're "just hitting the c-stick" mario's fsmash isn't super impressive. If you're doing a reverse fsmash then it gets really good, but ZZS's still outranges his by an obvious margin. Whether or not you consider that margin to be "a lot" depends on your interpretation of the word I guess xP.

(also I imagine there's some miscommunication going on in hurr. OH WELL~)

 

[A2ZOMG]

What I mean is that by not a significant range difference, it really doesn't change much what important moves you can punish just in terms outranging stuff, since the idea is that those moves basically work best for punishing anticipated commitment to a move that doesn't have as much range. Although Mario's F-smash has an obvious advantage in speed and reward.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Okay to clarify.

Stutterstepping does NOT increase your range.
ALl it does is "shift" you forward before you perform the attack.
So in truth, you're not gaining much range.

Performing a dash BEFORE you stutterstep places you a good distance closer than if you simply stutterstep.
All dash's can be canceled into nearly any attack (except those involving down direction) during the initial frames.
Hence why Sonic can perform his stutterstep and have it punish Marth even with the pushback