The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Supermodel From Paris]

adumb: ZSS doesn't hit MK's shield. The reason the match-up is considered to be so even by some is because ZSS easily gets him into the air and actually BEATS HIM in the air. She loses horribly on the ground and has to work pretty hard to avoid being gimped, though. There are a few very new videos of Nick playing Seibrik online.

Fun fact: uair beats glide attack

http://www.youtube.com/user/NickSRiddle#p/u/7/6bW6h1y-ONE I think Nick actually loses this set, but watch them all anyway. Video also shows how amazingly high ZSS can live with good DI.

 

[Albert.]

adumb: ZSS doesn't hit MK's shield. The reason the match-up is considered to be so even by some is because ZSS easily gets him into the air and actually BEATS HIM in the air. She loses horribly on the ground and has to work pretty hard to avoid being gimped, though. There are a few very new videos of Nick playing Seibrik online.

Fun fact: uair beats glide attack

http://www.youtube.com/user/NickSRiddle#p/u/7/6bW6h1y-ONE I think Nick actually loses this set, but watch them all anyway. Video also shows how amazingly high ZSS can live with good DI.

Seibrik didn't use tornado. ZSS does not beat MK in the air.

-_-

You're way too optimistic about the Match-Up lol. Oh, and if ZSS has some move that can cancel/hit MK out of tornado... He justs has to bait that move and punish your lag after.

Just an example- Some marth players think that Marth beats MK on the ground, or at least goes even with MK. Yeah but if the MK gonna stick there? No. Why would a MK stay airborne if ZSS beats him there? It's not like MK has bad ground moves LOL

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Seibrik didn't use tornado. ZSS does not beat MK in the air.

-_-

You're way too optimistic about the Match-Up lol. Oh, and if ZSS has some move that can cancel/hit MK out of tornado... He justs has to bait that move and punish your lag after.

Just an example- Some marth players think that Marth beats MK on the ground, or at least goes even with MK. Yeah but if the MK gonna stick there? No. Why would a MK stay airborne if ZSS beats him there? It's not like MK has bad ground moves LOL

Those marth mains would be wrong LoL. Marth's ground game is bad......

 

[da K.I.D.]

marths ground game is 50% side b and grab and 50% SH fair and nair.

 

[Justblaze647]

Marth's ground game is bad......

Dancing Blade?

D-tilt?

U-tilt?

Dolphin Slash?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Seibrik didn't use tornado. ZSS does not beat MK in the air.

-_-

You're way too optimistic about the Match-Up lol. Oh, and if ZSS has some move that can cancel/hit MK out of tornado... He justs has to bait that move and punish your lag after.

Just an example- Some marth players think that Marth beats MK on the ground, or at least goes even with MK. Yeah but if the MK gonna stick there? No. Why would a MK stay airborne if ZSS beats him there? It's not like MK has bad ground moves LOL

Not smart at all.

Also I'm not terribly optimistic about the match-up, I was explaining why some people are. I say it is a solid advantage for MK at 6/4. I don't know how many more times I can say it before people stop accusing me of character bias.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dancing Blade?

D-tilt?

U-tilt?

Dolphin Slash?

I'm aware of marth move set and how the moves are used. However, his ground game is certainly lacking.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, a lot of characters with bad ground games have good moves on the ground. It's about more than individual moves.

 

[Justblaze647]

I'm aware of marth move set and how the moves are used. However, his ground game is certainly lacking.

subjective statements are subjective.

To say that his ground game is bad, or lacking, is sort of an exaggeration. It honestly doesn't debilitate him in a way that makes him unusable; otherwise, he wouldn't be high tier like he is...

It's like saying Snake's air game is bad... so what?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

subjective statements are subjective.

To say that his ground game is bad, or lacking, is sort of an exaggeration. It honestly doesn't debilitate him in a way that makes him unusable; otherwise, he wouldn't be high tier like he is...

It's like saying Snake's air game is bad... so what?

Snakes air game is bad so how does that prove that Marth's ground game isn't bad or are you now changing your argument to even though his ground game is bad he still a good character? I wouldn't put too much stock on this tier list **** is balls and 90% of it is theory craft using a ruleset other than the ruleset the BBR recommends for tournies to be held. So yeah theory craft Marth tends to win out however, when it comes to actually executing it don't happen.

 

[Justblaze647]

Snakes air game is bad so how does that prove that Marth's ground game isn't bad or are you now changing your argument to even though his ground game is bad he still a good character?

lol I'm not changing my arguement, I was making a comparison to further prove my point...

Let me answer your question with another question: Who is Marth's ground game "bad" in comparison to? Someone like Diddy, or Falco? Maybe Bowser, or Pit, or Samus, or MK, or who? To whom does his ground game seem "lacking" in comparison to?

I wouldn't put too much stock on this tier list **** is balls and 90% of it is theory craft using a ruleset other than the ruleset the BBR recommends for tournies to be held. So yeah theory craft Marth tends to win out however, when it comes to actually executing it don't happen.

The high tiers are definitely accurate in the list, in reference to the current metagame. Middle tiers are shown reasonably well, too. You must think you could do a better job if you were the sole dictator of all things Smash.

 

[HeroMystic]

Saying if an air game or ground game is bad is usually useless unless everything pertaining to that game is bad.

Gauging by Offensive game and Defensive game is far more accurate because it combines both ground and aerial aspects, which should be how you're playing the character.

 

[adumbrodeus]

adumb: ZSS doesn't hit MK's shield. The reason the match-up is considered to be so even by some is because ZSS easily gets him into the air and actually BEATS HIM in the air. She loses horribly on the ground and has to work pretty hard to avoid being gimped, though. There are a few very new videos of Nick playing Seibrik online.

Fun fact: uair beats glide attack

http://www.youtube.com/user/NickSRiddle#p/u/7/6bW6h1y-ONE I think Nick actually loses this set, but watch them all anyway. Video also shows how amazingly high ZSS can live with good DI.

The problem is getting him into the air in the first place, ZSS has no real way to force approach, utilt is amazing OOS, but mk can be outside of range and poke, and what is ZSS gonna do?


If you're behind, you've got no way to force an approach (don't give me that BS about neutral B, I powershield it on reaction all the time, and what are you gonna do when MK is in poking range anyway?


So, without safe on shield approaches, she's pretty stuck against MK.


I will admit tornado is amazing, but she seems to be in the same situation as marth as far as the MU goes, albiet for slightly different reasons.

Snakes air game is bad so how does that prove that Marth's ground game isn't bad or are you now changing your argument to even though his ground game is bad he still a good character? I wouldn't put too much stock on this tier list **** is balls and 90% of it is theory craft using a ruleset other than the ruleset the BBR recommends for tournies to be held. So yeah theory craft Marth tends to win out however, when it comes to actually executing it don't happen.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954



I also find it ironic that you believe that zelda is much better due to theorycraft.

I'm aware of marth move set and how the moves are used. However, his ground game is certainly lacking.

Except the thing is, it's not so much that his ground moves are lacking, it's more because his air game is too good.


That said, we need to define our terms here, I consider stuff off SH as part of the ground game, and the air game is above that.

subjective statements are subjective.

To say that his ground game is bad, or lacking, is sort of an exaggeration. It honestly doesn't debilitate him in a way that makes him unusable; otherwise, he wouldn't be high tier like he is...

It's like saying Snake's air game is bad... so what?

Almost has a great deal of anti-marth bias, so take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Not saying he can't make good points, but his bias colors his perceptions about the character overall a great deal.



Also, marth sucks, just so you know.

 

[Justblaze647]

Saying if an air game or ground game is bad is usually useless unless everything pertaining to that game is bad.

True true...

In that case, Jigglypuff's ground game is bad.

 

[YagamiLight]

True true...

In that case, Jigglypuff's ground game is bad.

Dash Grab.

Anyway, it's pretty difficult to say if a character has a bad ground game since in a self-enclosed bubble everything is good. You need to compare what that character can do on the ground to what other characters can do, etc, etc. Don't make judgment calls based on a character alone.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol I'm not changing my arguement, I was making a comparison to further prove my point...

Let me answer your question with another question: Who is Marth's ground game "bad" in comparison to? Someone like Diddy, or Falco? Maybe Bowser, or Pit, or Samus, or MK, or who? To whom does his ground game seem "lacking" in comparison to?

There's also snake ROB DK wolf etc. His ftilt is balls and so is his jab. His fastest ground move hits on frame 4. His range is trumped by the characters I listed. Yeah it's lacking.

The high tiers are definitely accurate in the list, in reference to the current metagame. Middle tiers are shown reasonably well, too. You must think you could do a better job if you were the sole dictator of all things Smash.

Na I don't think the high tiers are accurate at all. I think Snake and MK desevere their own tier and I also think 3-5 should be composed of falco wario and diddy in any order. Marth should be below d3 and IC should be above d3. Also I'm not trying to be a smash dictator or whatever you're talking about just expressing my opinions on the matter the same way you are.

Except the thing is, it's not so much that his ground moves are lacking, it's more because his air game is too good.


That said, we need to define our terms here, I consider stuff off SH as part of the ground game, and the air game is above that.

How do you consider him being in the air being apart of his ground game? Considering what he can do out of a SH that just seems silly to me.

I also find it ironic that you believe that zelda is much better due to theorycraft.

I do think Zelda is much better than 3rd worst character in the game. I feel as though she should be around mid tier.

Almost has a great deal of anti-marth bias, so take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Not saying he can't make good points, but his bias colors his perceptions about the character overall a great deal.



Also, marth sucks, just so you know.

It's not even my anti-marth bias TBH I really don't think he's as good as people constantly make him out to be. It's really that simply. I do think he should be lower on the tier list and I don't think he's good at all I wouldn't suggest anyone picking Marth up unless you want a whole lot of frustration and mediocre results but hell answer me this simple question what the hell is the point of playing Marth when there's a character exactly like Marth that's about trillion times better? Drop Marth pick up MK.

 

[Nefarious B]

Seibrik didn't use tornado. ZSS does not beat MK in the air.

-_-

You're way too optimistic about the Match-Up lol. Oh, and if ZSS has some move that can cancel/hit MK out of tornado... He justs has to bait that move and punish your lag after.

Tornado is bad for her like it is for everyone. That being said she deals with it better than most characters, at least theoretically (I don't think anyone has put this theorycraft into practice yet, and I don't claim to be good at this matchup at all).

For example, MKs will usually dair on shield then tornado to pressure. Dair is punishable by ZSS with a uair OOS. So this means MK will not be able to consistently pressure with dairs to soften the shield first, so MK will be using vanilla nados.

If MK comes in high enough to cancel the landing lag, ZS can crawl which will put her low enough to duck it entirely, which gives her a solid chance to punish the landing with a dtilt or a dash attack if MK retreats.

If MK comes in lower, she can shield and possibly punish with a DA. She won't get shield poked as much with a lower nado though, so this isn't as huge of a threat.

If she's in the air she's ****ed of course, though all her aerials can beat nado depending on spacing, and her down b has trancendent property so it will beat nado everytime if the MK pursues her after she down bs.

I think the matchup is 40-60 because she can't do much against his ground game. However, I'm also of the opinion that no one has better than 45-55 with MK, and that the only characters with that ratio are Diddy and Snake.

 

[Justblaze647]

Drop Marth pick up MK.

This. Is not okay.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This. Is not okay.

It only makes sense.

 

[YagamiLight]

"Drop character X and go to MK" also applies to every other member of the cast not named Meta Knight.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I do think Zelda is much better than 3rd worst character in the game. I feel as though she should be around mid tier.

Your credibility just sunk faster then the Titanic when watching the movie in 4x Fast Forwards.

 

[phi1ny3]

Kids, take a magical journey in my time machine, where we go back to '08!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Your credibility just sunk faster then the Titanic when watching the movie in 4x Fast Forwards.

If you say so.

@Yagami that's not true Characters like Snake MK Diddy Wario Falco do fine.

 

[YagamiLight]

Your credibility just sunk faster then the Titanic when watching the movie in 4x Fast Forwards.

Ahaha. Good analogy.

Zelda + Sheik, though, is mid tier (the way the character should be played, no less).

 

[Justblaze647]

It only makes sense.

Sure it does, if you wanna monopolize Brawl. By that logic, everyone would be playing MK, because he's a trillion times better and more useful and more practical than every other character. I'm just going to assume you play Wario and Zelda, based off your sig....

Why don't you play MK, since he's you know, that much better than the characters you play???

 

[HeroMystic]

If you say so.

@Yagami that's not true Characters like Snake MK Diddy Wario Falco do fine.

Tournament Rankings and the MK Ban discussion says otherwise.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There's also snake ROB DK wolf etc. His ftilt is balls and so is his jab. His fastest ground move hits on frame 4. His range is trumped by the characters I listed. Yeah it's lacking.

Jab is balls?!

In what universe?


He's more disjointed then all of the above however, and most of them are a lot more punishable.

Na I don't think the high tiers are accurate at all. I think Snake and MK desevere their own tier and I also think 3-5 should be composed of falco wario and diddy in any order. Marth should be below d3 and IC should be above d3. Also I'm not trying to be a smash dictator or whatever you're talking about just expressing my opinions on the matter the same way you are.

Snake is not anywhere close to MK's level.

DDD is steadily dropping because his main advantage is hard countering more and more characters that are turning out to be useless anyway.


ICs, I think it's a matter of people not fighting them properly.

How do you consider him being in the air being apart of his ground game? Considering what he can do out of a SH that just seems silly to me.

Because he can do it easily from the ground to counter grounded options, why else?

I do think Zelda is much better than 3rd worst character in the game. I feel as though she should be around mid tier.

My point is you're theorycrafting it, so it's a mite hypocritical, not saying you're wrong because of it, but if you're discrediting theorycrafting, winning in that area discredits other arguments that use it.

It's not even my anti-marth bias TBH I really don't think he's as good as people constantly make him out to be. It's really that simply. I do think he should be lower on the tier list and I don't think he's good at all I wouldn't suggest anyone picking Marth up unless you want a whole lot of frustration and mediocre results but hell answer me this simple question what the hell is the point of playing Marth when there's a character exactly like Marth that's about trillion times better? Drop Marth pick up MK.

What's the point of playing any character that's not MK honestly? MK outclasses everyone by a wide margin.

MK certainly isn't exactly like marth, but in many ways he is a better marth, so I get where you're coming.

That doesn't make him relatively worse however, and conversely, the assumption that he deserves his spot on the tierlist doesn't mean he's not bad.

If you say so.

@Yagami that's not true Characters like Snake MK Diddy Wario Falco do fine.

Snake and Diddy, yes, but when fine = "less then soft-countered", I don't think that's saying much.


Falco and Wario are overrated against MK IMO, MK just option selects them too badly.

 

[Albert.]

The people who are saying Marth's ground game is bad should just never talk again.

You guys are acting like a four-frame transcendent priority move that deals 10-15% damage every time (dancing blades) is bad

Did I really just have to explain how DB is good?

Did you guys forget FSmash?

Marth doesn't even NEED any other ground moves LOL. If you watch videos of top Marths you'll notice that generally all they really use are Fair, DB, and maybe Fsmash and Dtilt.

-_-

I don't think any of the ZSS players understood what I meant about Tornado. I get that ZSS can kind of punish a "grounded" tornado approach, but Why would MK do this? You say that MKs ground game beats ZSS, and then what? Eventually you're in the air, so he tornados you. That's what he does to Marth.

...

 

[Albert.]

Wow at double post, my computer is ******** when I'm running Vuze.

 

[Justblaze647]

Fsmash really isn't that great, imo

 

[phi1ny3]

Not to mention that Marth's dtilt in conjunction with fair is basically what marth only needs to fight like all of the lower half of the cast lol.

I agree that you're not going to play marth for his ground game, but he's certainly not lacking. it's this mixture between ground and air that does pretty well. Not to mention his throws/air releases practically give you free followup options

 

[YagamiLight]

Marth's Fsmash is punishable by Ike's Fsmash if blocked.

Bad move is bad.

 

[phi1ny3]

Marth fsmash is good

Spoiler

in Melee.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The people who are saying Marth's ground game is bad should just never talk again.

You guys are acting like a four-frame transcendent priority move that deals 10-15% damage every time (dancing blades) is bad

Did I really just have to explain how DB is good?

Did you guys forget FSmash DTILT?

Marth doesn't even NEED any other ground moves LOL. If you watch videos of top Marths you'll notice that generally all they really use are Fair, DB, and maybe Fsmash and Dtilt.

-_-

I don't think any of the ZSS players understood what I meant about Tornado. I get that ZSS can kind of punish a "grounded" tornado approach, but Why would MK do this? You say that MKs ground game beats ZSS, and then what? you're in the air, he tornados you. That's what he does to Marth.

...

Fixed, f-smash sux honestly, at least relative to the rest of marth's moveset, way too punishable.

Marth's Fsmash is punishable by Ike's Fsmash if blocked.

Bad move is bad.

... Not quite, I thought it did, but shield pushback means that it's just a tiny bit too slow.

 

[Albert.]

Yeah Fsmash is punishable but so are a LOT of good moves, like MK's downsmash

-_-

If you don't even get why Fsmash is good then why am I even listening to any of you?

Why would Mikehaze spam Fsmash if it wasn't good?

 

[hotgarbage]

FuN fAcT: if you average the cooldown of Marth's "A move" ground attacks he has some of the worst lag in the game. Like, I mean something ridiculous like top 3 worst (can't say for sure due to HD crash )

As already said in this thread though he gets around that pretty nicely with dtilt and dancing blade.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ally fair spiked M2K at Genesis.

Does that mean Snake's fair is good?

I admit the example's extreme, but you get where I'm going.

Marth fsmash is great if you find the opening, often which Mike is able to do.

Like people have said, Dtilt and DB may be among the best moves in the game for special purposes. They may be only two ground options, but I could say similar things about other character's tools, and people could agree that they only need those few tools to be great.

 

[YagamiLight]

... Not quite, I thought it did, but shield pushback means that it's just a tiny bit too slow.

Oh, that's true.

*punishable by Ike's Fsmash on powershield, then? That's still pretty shoddy.

Problem with it is that it's way too weak for how punishable it is with a non-tipper hit. And a tipper hit has a shield advantage of -40. For the record, Ike's Fsmash has a shield advantage of -41. That's...horrible.

 

[phi1ny3]

DS is also very, very useful

 

[Albert.]

Ally fair spiked M2K at Genesis.

Does that mean Snake's fair is good?

I admit the example's extreme, but you get where I'm going.

Marth fsmash is great if you find the opening, often which Mike is able to do.

Like people have said, Dtilt and DB may be among the best moves in the game for special purposes. They may be only two options, but I could say similar things about other character's tools, and people could agree that they only need those few tools to be great.

That example is retardedly stupid. Snake's Fair is an extremely situational move. It's not used that much because obviously it isn't useful or necessary most of the time.

Top marths use Fsmash. Do I really need to link videos to you guys?

EDIT:
Fsmash
t's not for killing
it's for hitting people out of Air-dodging to the ground
And also- It's not for damage wracking- Its to force them off the stage, then you ledge-trap them

OH AND
if you're past 100 and it tips, BYE BYE stock.

(130 for heavyweights)