The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[YagamiLight]

All this talk of Mario makes me wanna maim people.

Mission complete.

SWF would be a better place if people only talked about their own character but...alas..

 

[HeroMystic]

Lol, you better be glad I play Ike, otherwise I'd be going A2ZOMG on your ***.

 

[Conviction]

Lol but if we only talked about our character we couldn't have MU discussions.

 

[YagamiLight]

Lol, you better be glad I play Ike, otherwise I'd be going A2ZOMG on your ***.

A2ZOMG plays Ike too! Ike is his strong secondary and/or favorite character or whatever. Along with the rest of the cast, apparently.

Lol but if we only talked about our character we couldn't have MU discussions.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mission complete.

SWF would be a better place if people only talked about their own character but...alas..

Inui mains Ike in low tier and claims he's bottom 5, lol.

 

[YagamiLight]

Inui mains Ike in low tier and claims he's bottom 5, lol.

Inui.

I think that says enough about that, haha.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Inui.

I think that says enough about that, haha.

Pretty much, lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pretty much, lol.

Don't forget the fact his Ike is really, really basic. It's pretty much Fair and Jab.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Don't forget the fact his Ike is really, really basic. It's pretty much Fair and Jab.

Hang on, this post confuses me. His ike? Don't you mean Ike?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hang on, this post confuses me. His ike? Don't you mean Ike?

No, his Ike.

Ikes that actually place in top 8s in real tournaments use more then those two moves. For example: Nair, Bair, Uair, Dair, Utilt, Ftilt, Bthrow, Dash Attack, Usmash.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

No, his Ike.

Ikes that actually place in top 8s in real tournaments use more then those two moves. For example: Nair, Bair, Uair, Dair, Utilt, Ftilt, Bthrow, Dash Attack, Usmash.

Its the main problem for many characters, characters aren't being correctly exploited. Just see the different ways people play sheik or other characters. Sheik isn't all LolFtilt spam and Ike isn't just for tap a reset combos.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Its the main problem for many characters, characters aren't being correctly exploited. Just see the different ways people play sheik or other characters. Sheik isn't all LolFtilt spam and Ike isn't just for tap a reset combos.

I dunno, that's why I feel PT is so low. I think he still has potential.

 

[Javon89]

I honestly think that is the highest PT will go.

 

[Kole]

PT's current tournament results aren't enough to raise him much above where he currently is.

 

[Shaya]

I dont think PT could go much higher, only if other characters were to fall.
I dont think he will break his current middle tier area.

People dont realise what critical weaknesses pokemon trainer have. They arent willing to play gay, nor even know how.
Squirtle, the best of the three in terms of overall options only requires you to plank for 2 minutes before he is arguably useless. As in, if you are meta knight once he is fatigued, he wont be able to kill you until PAST 150%. And PT wont survive three switches and stalling out of another 2 minutes to try and reset the situation. With LGLs currently standard though, Squirtles edge guarding becomes a pretty good tool though.
Most other high tier characters steam roll Charizard and Ivysaur - especially Ivysaur.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think PT shouldn't be higher then low tier, but everyone should know that by now if they have been here since last tier list. >_>

No good reason for him to move up in the first place + constantly getting weaker = lol bad. And there are various ways to exploit the forced switches + fatigue.

Let's say there is one pokemon your character is just terrible again, but does fairly well against the other two: deal lots of damage against the pokemon that comes right before, and then plank/flee/stall in a way that is legal as it can't be called stalling until he's forced to switch, making sure that you didn't KO the previous pokemon. Suddenly, your hardest opponent in the MU starts off with a huge handicap and can't play nearly as aggressively. He'll play defensively, when you finally land the KO the pokemon will be at least partly fatigued and thus can't quickly switch twice back to said pokemon unless he wants to use him handicapped. Repeat as necessary.

Really, if you play smart, which ever pokemon of the three gives you the most trouble should be a nearly a non-factor.

 

[Javon89]

I personally think Squirtle should have his own placement if fatigue came didn't into play.
Wouldn't having hacks for no fatigue be a good thing in the tournament ruleset?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, it wouldn't. If you're going to tamper with PT, you'd have to tamper with everyone.

Squirtle is not a character, PT is. That's now it is.

 

[Shaya]

No it wouldnt.

Bluntly put, making it a prerequirement to modify the game through codes/hacks to have it as tournament standard will never happen, because it isnt standard to modify the game (outside of normal game options) to play it.

 

[humble]

PT isn't going to rise...

We've already seen the best results we'll see from him with Reflex and Typh, who are actually way better then their character and warped it a bit. Really PT could be considered a good character who is forced to play the game blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back; suddenly, not such a good character because he has fsking handicaps on him all the time. Removing the ******** handicaps is possible through hacking, but hacking won't be standard, so PT is forced to play in the ****** brawl competition instead of regular.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think Pokemon Trainer has a lot of "potential" remaining, particularly in effective usage of Charizard and Ivysaur (who, standalone, I would consider solidly low tier) but, at the end of the day, fatigue really hinders what you can do with the character and really what the opponent can do to you.

With Squirtle you can easily whittle away the clock via simple slow play and his horrendous grab release animation (which leads to painful chaingrabs). Ivysaur is a natural "spacing" type character who is clearly hindered by the fact that your attacks each drain your stamina. And for Charizard, the "stock tank", living forever does naturally mean you'll be weakened by the end of it, especially if your opponent plays slowly.

People are going to learn to exploit PT, I think. When that happens, he's probably going to fall back down.

 

[Shaya]

I think he will remain a solid bottom-mid.
I am reasonably aware of how well PT is exploited; PT just legitimately wrecks low tiers and has reasonable match ups up until high tier.
Squirtle effectively wrecks slower characters. His air camping is up there with MK, Wario and Jigglypuff - With better aerial start up on good-ranged aerials than all 3, better fast fall than jigs and mk and has, I believe, the smallest hurtbox out of all of them.
Couple in a more versatile ground game than both wario and jiggs (read: ftilt is LAME, shell shifting is too, biggest amount of techs out of anyone ever), and you have a solid character who can handle match ups even when fatigued.
A lot, and I mean A LOT of characters cannot afford to lose their stock before Squirtle does, it is legimately an extremely hard process to finish off Squirtle with just about anyone other than Marth, Wolf and some other oddities (funnily enough D3 just takes up the entire stage with his move set in ways that make finishing off squirtle not complicated).

Like I say that because I use and get to see several characters playing against PT; Lucario, Wario, Snake, MK (to a degree), Falco, Ice Climbers, and many others will cry trying to finish off Squirtle if squirtles playing run away.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Squirtle has good airspeed, but he is no Wario/Jigglypuff in terms of running away in the air. A lot of those characters can catch him, Wario, Lucario, Falco (Even if he has trouble with Squirtle for other reasons).

He isn't as good at playing the runaway game.

Charizard doesn't get beat that badly by high tiers, against a couple he does have trouble where Squirtle is much better suite to fight, but he has MU's where he has good usage.

People need to get it out of their heads that hacking the game to allow them to be played separately would be better, newsflash the character was designed so all three would have to be played. It's not a choice like Sheik and Zelda where you can skip one and only play the other. Sure I would have fun playing Charizard only, but that's not how PT works.

 

[Vermy]

He isn't as good at playing the runaway game.

Believe it or not, watergun plays a big part in Squirtle's camp game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think he is worse than Sonic.
Yep, I said it.
*flees*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Believe it or not, watergun plays a big part in Squirtle's camp game.

He still needs to try and charge to get it off, which costs him run away time.

 

[Browny]

Like I say that because I use and get to see several characters playing against PT; Lucario, Wario, Snake, MK (to a degree), Falco, Ice Climbers, and many others will cry trying to finish off Squirtle if squirtles playing run away.

And squirtle is having fun while letting the enemy live to >150% each stock? 200 for snake?
lol

Basing a strategy off a low-tier character having a stock advantage is ridiculous at best. it might be applicable to characters like fox who actually legitimately have a chance of taking off the first stock, and can run away + damage at the same time while staying kind of safe, as oppose to a character which has no projectile if he gets the lead and cant KO for crap once he finds an opening if hes caught in the situation himself :/

 

[Luigi player]

He still needs to try and charge to get it off, which costs him run away time.

No.. he can run away & charge at the same time. Just jump while charging. You still have control of your horizontal speed and Squirtle is pretty fast and mobile in the air. If the enemy comes too near he could airdodge and change direction like Wario... (just an example)

 

[phi1ny3]

The problem with playing gay with squirtle imo is that you run some risks. He has some of the more flexible options of repelling from the ground as opposed to Jigglypuff/Wario because of how fast his ground attacks are, but fatigue I would think be a detriment to the idea of a camping squirtle, it means that if the person catches up to squirtle, squirtle's going to have a hard time reestablishing a lead in percent or stock because of his diminished power. Essentially, PT doesn't reward camping as much as other chars, and unlike Wario where fart can really end a stock or do some serious damage while rewarding safe play at the same time, squirtle has no such thing really. This is further hurt by the lack of really good recovering options. Squirtle is frankly a lot better than several other chars at recovering, but he's still in the realm of "gimpable" by several characters, preventing strong edge-play or "planking" options that characters like MK have in keeping safe. That being said, there's a reason nobody ever says squirtle out of the three pokemon in the lineup is overrated, he's arguably the biggest hauler in the team lol.

Or am I wrong in assuming that this fatigue could stand in the way of camping?

 

[Steeler]

water gun is legitimately **** in some matchups, particularly ice climbers

squirtle camping is terrific if you have the stock lead but you can't assume that in most matchups...the other two aren't good enough characters to ensure that squirtle comes in with a stock lead in the first place.

anyway fatigue doesn't matter much if you have the stock lead, he can still link some of his attacks together well at low percent if the opportunity arises. squirtle's survivability is much more of an issue than fatigue is, imo. make a mistake and you lose your stock or like 1/5 of it.

squirtle really shouldn't be camping without a stock lead...squirtle's fresh stocks are too precious in most matchups to waste like that.

also, PT is low tier.

 

[Shaya]

Ill burn you Steeler. I cannot let you guys demonize low tier tournaments ANY LONGER.

Especially as Sheik is not low tier.

 

[phi1ny3]

Good to know. :D

 

[Browny]

wahhhhh sonic is too good for low tier
wahhhhh pt is too good for low tier

ike is next

 

[Shaya]

Sheik is too good for l-

wait a second guys.
PUT SHEIK IN LOW TIER PLEASE OH MY GOD.

Why am I talking to myself?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Inui mains Ike in low tier and claims he's bottom 5, lol.

If I hadn't been told Inui was superbanned I would have never noticed. It's a bit like putting WD-40 on a door that's been squeaking for a while and then just forgetting about it.

I look at it again (now looking at the ratios instead of the total tallies), lots of it is bias. If I were to ask ZSS boards about the MU v. MK, they'd say it's 45:55.

Uh. That depends who you ask. I say it's 4/6. Thio would probably say it's like 1/9. Nick says it's even. The ZSS boards have like ten posters or less and none of us agree about anything.

 

[Adapt]

Bit of a late comment, but better than never...

But you can't argue that there are characters with possibly better MUs

I look at it again (now looking at the ratios instead of the total tallies), lots of it is bias. If I were to ask ZSS boards about the MU v. MK, they'd say it's 45:55.

I have heard anything from 50-50 to 65-35 (Advantage MK). Tbh, we can't agree on most of our matchup ratios. MKs don't all know either, I have heard some MKs say the match is close to even and some say they have a large advantage.

Bias is involved in some of the numbers I believe, but it's mitigated somewhat by having both sides agree on a ratio.


EDIT: Hahahah SFP (rise), both of us are a few days late to the party. But at least our posts agreed

 

[Browny]

Did inui get superbanned because of that story or what lol, I must have missed something big >_>

It was funny seeing him get trolled daily

 

[Kitamerby]

Sheik is too good for l-

wait a second guys.
PUT SHEIK IN LOW TIER PLEASE OH MY GOD.

Why am I talking to myself?

Now you see why the Ness, Sonic, Ike, and Lucario mains are now pissed.

They can't use our characters in low/mid tier tournaments anymore, and they're just as unviable as they were before in mid/high tiers, so really they just nerfed themselves for absolutely no reason. D:

 

[Shaya]

Lucario seems pretty viable to me to actually be considered high tier.

Ive thought this multiple times, but how seperate tier tournaments work out seem to have just too much depth to rely purely on an over all metagame perspective.
Like Diddy is 3rd best in the game, but would he be overpowered in Mid Tier tournaments? arguably not when Peach and Luigi are about with hardly any bad match ups themselves. He also has a slew of even match ups in Mid Tier too.

When it comes to Sonic, I think he is a tad bit above low tier, like PT. I think they would generally be too strong for use in low tier tournaments as well.

I can only find irony in people being annoyed that their character is considered good lol (or better than what they hope).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Shaya: Diddy is artificially inflated by the characters around him who make him good. If Captain Falcon had an even match-up with MK or beat Snake or something, he'd be considered a lot better than he is too.

I hope that made sense...

But anyway, Diddy Kong is really only considered top tier material because he isn't brutally whipped by top tier characters, not because he's so much better than the rest of the cast.

I think PT is super underrated. Yeah I know he has really bad weaknesses, but mid tier characters in Brawl are all pretty much inviable on their own, so it isn't like he'd be so out of place in mid or upper mid.