The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Spelt]

Kakera is awesome.
I wanna see how he does in a US national.

 

[phi1ny3]

Kakera's what I've been looking at to solidify some walling and spacing play to improve my own ICs. I really like his set he played against this one Diddy.

 

[Clai]

Tech chases do not equate to combos.

I just wanted to point out that Ganondorf has guaranteed follow-ups from Flame Choke on every character in the cast except Marth, Lucario, and Ganon himself. So Flame Choke to Jab/Dtilt/Dash Attack isn't a tech chase, it's a legit combo. As Kid said, Dair also starts true combos.

I do agree that I can't possibly see how Mario can drop any more than he has. His tools far surpass those of anyone below him.

 

[phi1ny3]

Plus you also take into account that on some chars v. Snake's dthrow, the "tech chase" when mastered is more like a combo, due to how slow/poor each reaction is.

 

[HeroMystic]

I can see the reasoning with that.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I can see the reasoning with that.

I just borrowed Mystic Heroes! I hope it's as good as I remember....

Plus you also take into account that on some chars v. Snake's dthrow, the "tech chase" when mastered is more like a combo, due to how slow/poor each reaction is.

I believe on Toon Link it's a sure thing. You can walk to right outside of get up attack range (not running you'll get that turn around animation if he rolls away)and his roll is slow enough for you to CG him to 999 if you wanted.

 

[phi1ny3]

There's also Charizard, Oli, imo Wario is also pretty bad in options.

Oh yeah, and most chars can be 0-death'd on platforms with snake dthrow, the confined space limits a lot of escapability lol.

 

[YagamiLight]

Protip: Don't get grabbed by Snake on a platform.

I generally don't worry about my character's get up rolls (Ike has pretty good ones, I think?) but I once attempted to use Charizard against Snake and that was like the worst experience of my life.

 

[Dark.Pch]

DP, if you are talking about Lain... he doesnt think ICs beats Peach... He didnt say that in discussions.

Hero, drastic fall as in bottom tier status. I doubt I could justify their reasons for wanting such a thing, but it didnt happen either way.

Ive answered Pit too many times now in this thread. Hell even the first post gives an understandable reasoning if you think of the contra positive of it.

Lain must have now changed his mined. Cause back on Peach vs IC he was acting just like that. Just the way I stated in my post.

And I read your reason for Pit going up. I don't find that legit at all. Again, if he went up like that then Peach should have. Cause if we gonna go by your logic, Peach out classed him. You still have not giving me a good reason for Peach not going anywhere. Peach not moving for the second time, when she has done better in tournies for each tier list, is ********.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Has Peach been doing better in tournies than any of the characters currently above her aside from Pit?

 

[Shaya]

You obviously didnt read what Ive said a few times that both phil and Da kid saw.
Sure that didnt exactly answer why Peach did not go up... but... eh...
you would have been surprised to see how some ... mmm users of Peach... were somewhat against her rising; even though her competitively ranked match up spread was top 15.
Peach just seems to be slow in adjustments... somewhat like Wario for two tier lists. Even though I have heard you say that Peach has been doing better in tournaments, most often there is opinions swayed on `best of X` losing to `best of Y`.

Some are just set that Pit is a good character. If they feel that X is better than Y and tournament results are not all that matter due to underpresentation (yes EC pit lovers...), then its hard for there not to be action when everyone else is oh hes about the same (as in not going HE SHOULD BE LOWER) whilst a group of others are saying he should go higher... gah why am I repeating myself, I have seriously gone over this so many times now and you never EVER actually take it in and then go back to asking the same question a day later...

Remember, you were advocating for a peach rise and SOME backroomers said oh just have better tournament results, prove those good match ups, etc. I dont think it was ever officially said thats the be all and end all. I think the general shock of Peach being so great in the days of Edreese tanking then all of a sudden complete quiet has sullied her for the long term. Either way, I cannot be the ultimate logic point for everything, I hope you understand that. inb4 moan bias opinions not the right way to do it etc.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Has Peach been doing better in tournies than any of the characters currently above her aside from Pit?

No, just Pit. but the 4 characters that pit is over has also done better than him in tournaments as well.

You obviously didnt read what Ive said a few times that both phil and Da kid saw.

I did, but call BS on it if Peach is still where she is. Seriously, don't you see something wrong with that? really when pit was not near her in tournament ranks. There is no excuse for this dude.

Sure that didnt exactly answer why Peach did not go up... but... eh...

yea.........thats what I thought. Game over dude. You have nothing to explain for this. You can explain a character like pit, who the characters under him have done better in tournament. Yet when it comes to this, this is all you have to say? You can't even fight your way out of this mistake dude. I knew it, and the reason why I was not getting any answers to this mistake. Now I officially know what is up. You boys blow it. Next.

you would have been surprised to see how some ... mmm users of Peach... were somewhat against her rising; even though her competitively ranked match up spread was top 15.

No I would have not been surpised at all. Cause you have all peach players from one region. The WC. You have no Peach mains in there from the EC who has Peach experience and has placed well in this region alot. or knows how the competion and play style is here. And I dare say that EC is the better region then WC. So you just getting info and all this from just one region alone is bad. Just like the Pit hype came from the EC as you told me and they had something to do with his insane boost.

Peach just seems to be slow in adjustments... somewhat like Wario for two tier lists. Even though I have heard you say that Peach has been doing better in tournaments, most often there is opinions swayed on `best of X` losing to `best of Y`.

Slow in adjustment? I am not to sure I can agree with that dude. Have you not been seeing what the Peach boards have being finding oyut with her. Wether with advance techs or insane frame data that makes Peach crazy and look like the next melee fox. Like how it is legit to Glide toss a shield to upsmash. You call that crazy? ********, makes no sense at all? Goo in the boards and see for yourself. I say her meta game goes up by 10% each month from what we find and talk about with her.

Some are just set that Pit is a good character. If they feel that X is better than Y and tournament results are not all that matter due to underpresentation (yes EC pit lovers...), then its hard for there not to be action when everyone else is oh hes about the same (as in not going HE SHOULD BE LOWER) whilst a group of others are saying he should go higher... gah why am I repeating myself, I have seriously gone over this so many times now and you never EVER actually take it in and then go back to asking the same question a day later...

Ok, so people went saying pit is a good character and his tournaments have failed to show that he is as good as people say. Same time, people always went about how rep and tourny peromance is important. So you mean to tell me people over shadow all of this cause "Pit is just a good character, no tourny or rep is gonna change that"? There is a reason I call BS on this man. I am not the enemy here or as bad as you think I am. I am being straight real. You honestly can't do crap like that for stupid reason like this. if you was gonna do that, then you would of had no choice but to boost peach up. The fact that she did not move twice ALONE shows thatThe reason Pit got his stop is bias nonsense. Same time, Look at the other characters he is over. You can't just ignore everything and focus on one thing and bias that. "Pit is a could character and can do this and that, screw tourny results." The "Good character that he is, did not quality him for that spot" he could not hold his own in tourny.

Remember, you were advocating for a peach rise and SOME backroomers said oh just have better tournament results, prove those good match ups, etc. I dont think it was ever officially said thats the be all and end all. I think the general shock of Peach being so great in the days of Edreese tanking then all of a sudden complete quiet has sullied her for the long term. Either way, I cannot be the ultimate logic point for everything, I hope you understand that. inb4 moan bias opinions not the right way to do it etc.

Ok, let me put it to you straight. Even without edreese playing as much or quitting. I was still second/third best in the country. The top 3 were me, him and excel. And we brought in good results with her. as well as the other Peaches. Edreese has not done much work for the previous tier list. Not as much as he did the one before. and Peach has done better than her last one. So if you serioulsy gonna say edreese way the reason for the peach being that good in human eyes, that sir, is a lie and a fasle statement to me to cover up why she has not moved for 2 tier list. This one mostly.

So to make things clear.

- You explained why Pit has moved up the way he did. which I broke it down already and called BS on it.

- Peach has done in tournies than him, making top 15th. Pit did not.

- Peach players really don't counterpick characters for the placings she has got. I hear Pit mains do. That right there shows that peach is more vaible and puts in more work than Pit.

I broken down Peach so many times that not even pit talk or info can compare. Same time you have the Peach boards to check stuff out. Her frame data with pressure/shield options and ledge options alone are insane. There is no bias or therycrafting here. cause as I said, Peach players me and corrupt.ed have been working with fame data and telling people stuff they had no clue about. I can actually back stuff up with peach for both results, character potentional and frame data/info. For Pit none can and can top what Peach can do and has done up until this tier list was here.

This tier list made this too easy to call you out on serious mistakes you made and the fact you can't explain your self at all (Peach) or give crappy reasons (Pit).

I would love to see how you gonna talk your way out of this one, tell me I am wrong and that you are legit. There is no way out of this. Just admit you boys screwed and stop giving people these crazy, bias and hyppcritical reasons.

 

[HeroMystic]

DP, I believe at this point you're just gonna have to talk to other BBR members, because even though Shaya is trying to "debate" with you, the simple answer to all of this is because of the voting system, so not all reasoning if anything doesn't stem from him. It's better to ask the people who directly did not believe Peach should rise.

 

[Twintail]

You have to understand that the back room is comprised of a number of more or less respected, intelligible players. You appear to always attack individual members with the phrase "you boys" and force responsibility onto those members. The collective back room made the decisions on the tier list, not any single person, and that list is made to reflect the current, nation-wide meta game.

The general consensus in Melee is that fox is at the top of the tier list, yet people like Mango and Armada win tournaments using other characters. The list represents the characters at the height of their current meta games and back in Brawl with frame data and Brawl's overlying mechanics, Pit, according to those players who were deemed suitable for the back room, does have the tools to be where he is on the tier list.

As others have said, it's not always that a character did not move up, but also that they did not move down. A tier list does not say "Oh ho ho, character x is better now because he/she is now higher". Also, I seem to recall a time when you were dissatisfied with your own results, yet you boast all the time now. You seem unwilling to accept others' opinions as well and you call bias, but seem to have some bias of your own.

 

[Shaya]

Dam DP you did it again...
You absoloutely, positively outright ignored (or misunderstood, maybe I need to start questioning your intelligence) what I said to you.

You obviously have NOT read what I said about Pit. Because your ENTIRE paragraph after the i got you now boyz was stuff that had NOTHING to do with what I had originally said.

So to make things clear:

You explained why Pit has moved up the way he did. which I broke it down already and called BS on it.

You obviously did not read it, because you did not break it down at all. I will paraphrase it for you. The entire C Tier are characters who were SO CLOSE TO EACHOTHER IN VOTING that you could consider them almost TIED for the same placing. His literal +4 movement means LITTLE when he has not OUTDONE (tier wise) anyone from before other than Donkey Kong. Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus and Kirby are realistically so close to Pit that the fact he got a +4 was because of small sway of opinions. His supposibly incredible rise is artificial at best.
You have not broken this down at all, in fact you have ignored it when I have posted this TWICE now, is it going to be three times lucky?

Peach has done in tournies than him, making top 15th. Pit did not.
Peach is not top 15 in tournament results. The.. list I was referring to was a calculation that coupled the BBRs opinions of match ups and weighed them compared to the character rankings list of the time.
Because of Peachs reasonably agreed to match up advantages on Wario, Diddy Kong and I think ICs as well, Peach did extremely well compared to most characters around her who have blanket disadvantages in the most used tournament characters. This list did not measure how badly one lost to a character though. i.e. only -1, 0 and +1; Peachs placement of that weighted list was seen as too high by just about every BBR member :\

Peach players really don't counterpick characters for the placings she has got. I hear Pit mains do. That right there shows that peach is more vaible and puts in more work than Pit.

Did you just really just try to argue that in a debate? Ignored.

 

[professor mgw]

~ I'm glad they moved diddy up, connsidering the fact that he's doing outstanding in major tournies and regular ones and other factors. EC is better than WC.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

No, just Pit. but the 4 characters that pit is over has also done better than him in tournaments as well.

So Peach has "done better in tournies for each tier list" but still hasn't done better than anyone she could pass up except for one character who's been noted by pretty much everyone as an oddity in regards to his placement, which is questionable at best.

...Why are you so upset she hasn't moved, then?

 

[phi1ny3]

So I've had a question that's been bugging me. Was rep really the sole reason Lucario rose? Are there some magical opinions in MUs that make them better than they are? If you've seen the list, he's not doing too well in MU numbers on both sides of the spectrum (what lucarios say and what everyone else says)

Also, I think a good idea is to make a side note in the OP about how some chars were really close, people can only see characters above and below, but not by how much, which can get a little confusing. Maybe next time a vote "value" could denote how close or not characters are within each other? Or is that divulging too much information? Like in the last tier list, the OP made note about how Kirby and Lucario's relative position were a hard topic of debate in BBR iirc.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

ED just gets in your head with his insane jokes. By the time you're finished laughing you don't even know how you lost. XD

ZELDA IS NOT G TIER!!!!! if youve seen ED! play i simply cannot believe she is that low also he recently placed 5th and took out some of floridas best WITH ZELDA going sheik for like 2 matches

-_-
Beefy just because Ed is good with Zelda doesn't mean Zelda isn't the 3rd worst character in the game...

I'm having much fun wit all these mentions I'm getting. I think Hero's was the best tho!

O, hai everyone!

 

[Browny]

Lucario went up coz characters around him were exposed for being bad

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

So I've had a question that's been bugging me. Was rep really the sole reason Lucario rose? Are there some magical opinions in MUs that make them better than they are? If you've seen the list, he's not doing too well in MU numbers on both sides of the spectrum (what lucarios say and what everyone else says)

I can't believe you still think that list actually means anything.

What Browny said is true as well.

Not to say he hasn't been getting good rep though.

 

[phi1ny3]

But you can't argue that there are characters with possibly better MUs

I look at it again (now looking at the ratios instead of the total tallies), lots of it is bias. If I were to ask ZSS boards about the MU v. MK, they'd say it's 45:55.

I guess Lucario may be less desirable in my eyes, but I guess there aren't characters with better MUs below that have a more point-on concept. I still can't help but think this char is overrated a smidgen though. Frame-data wise, he's a wreck, he has some more severe limitations against good edgeguarders/gimpers, and he has a lot of doable, but limited MUs. He's great, but I don't think I can expect him to stay, much less rise anymore.

I guess I might just be saying that he's there b/c there's nobody else that's been proving otherwise.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

[phi1ny3]

I've been discovered!

*levitates, and develops mysterious gagging*

Lucario's not amaziiiing!

*dies*

Also, I think a good idea is to make a side note in the OP about how some chars were really close, people can only see characters above and below, but not by how much, which can get a little confusing. Maybe next time a vote "value" could denote how close or not characters are within each other? Or is that divulging too much information? Like in the last tier list, the OP made note about how Kirby and Lucario's relative position were a hard topic of debate in BBR iirc.

^Seriously though, what about this?

 

[Arcade]

I'm confused. Why are these BR polls/discussions conducted behind closed doors in the first place?

 

[Technodeath]

because they dont want a ****storm

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If the US had an IC player as good as Kakera Snake would be #1.
inb4troll

 

[Conviction]

^ I still don't get it.

Lol I'm forreal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What is it that you don't understand? Kakera is clearly the best IC player yet. He never misses a single anything.

 

[Conviction]

No how Snake would be 1st.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Because Snake beats ICs and Diddy on a consistent basis like no other character does. Maybe that's not how the tier list works but considering that the gap between MK / Snake / Diddy / ICs / Falco and the rest of the cast is pretty huge I think Snake should be #1 simply because he does best against them. He beats 2 of them for sure, goes even or has a slight advantage against another one (Falco) and still goes even with MK.

It really depends on how the tier list is made though. Considering Snake's difficulties against D3 people might consider that enough to make him #2 (or even lower) even though nobody really plays D3 anymore these days.

Edit: The point of this post is that you probably have to go Snake to beat ICs as good as Kakera's.

 

[kackamee]

What is it that you don't understand? Kakera is clearly the best IC player yet. He never misses a single anything.

Because Snake beats ICs and Diddy on a consistent basis like no other character does. Maybe that's not how the tier list works but considering that the gap between MK / Snake / Diddy / ICs / Falco and the rest of the cast is pretty huge I think Snake should be #1 simply because he does best against them. He beats 2 of them for sure, goes even or has a slight advantage against another one (Falco) and still goes even with MK.

It really depends on how the tier list is made though. Considering Snake's difficulties against D3 people might consider that enough to make him #2 (or even lower) even though nobody really plays D3 anymore these days.

Edit: The point of this post is that you probably have to go Snake to beat ICs as good as Kakera's.

How can you tell that Kakera is the best?? It's impossible to say. I personally think Lain/Meep/Swordgard are better then Kakera, but not by a large margin. And The Japan metagame is different from the US's. So he may be able to win in Japan but not against our MK's and Snakes and ROBs and such. Also that may be the same with our players and them going to Japan.

 

[Shaya]

And kakera is winning tournaments in Japan now?

 

[kackamee]

And kakera is winning tournaments in Japan now?

I don't think so, actually. I don't know for sure, but I could've sworn I heard someone saying about how Kakera places well in tourneys, but not wins.

 

[Conviction]

Doesn't sound like trolling, sounds like some one has being riding too long. Not to start a flame war but I feel a strong bias coming from him.

Yes Kakera is beast, but I don't believe he's that beast.

 

[Browny]

phil it really is quite simple... the other characters are worse. who cares if his frame data isnt amazing or his recovery leaves a lot to be desired, at the end of the day he has PROVEN to be a good character which all those around him fail to do on a regular basis. Theres more than 2 players proving lucario can do well, which is a lot more than I can say for many characters. You really are making something out of nothing here. Lucarios placement is 100% warranted and makes complete sense imo.

Let the other characters believe they have good matchups. If they want to donate money to the smart player fund regularly and cant understand why they never win thats their problem. You really shouldnt care in the slightest what MU ratios any character has... if they win more often than not irl, thats ALL that matters. I REALLY hope you dont think his place is undeserved because other boards are delusional...

 

[Justblaze647]

I'm confused. Why are these BR polls/discussions conducted behind closed doors in the first place?

I agree. There surely will be some benefit to exposing some of the discussion that takes place back there, if only to satiate the Zelda mains.

 

[Browny]

Because it makes them feel special, not too dissimilar to little kids acting all secretive within their group of friends, excluding others to make them feel important so others might think that about them.

If people saw what went on in there theyd lose all reason to respect the bbr rofl (how they formulated 2.0, need I say more?) dark.pch knows what im on about

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/actonxsmash

PROOF IKE AINT LOW TIER.

 

[Orion*]

So Peach has "done better in tournies for each tier list" but still hasn't done better than anyone she could pass up except for one character who's been noted by pretty much everyone as an oddity in regards to his placement, which is questionable at best.

...Why are you so upset she hasn't moved, then?

this.

10LOLS