The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[HeroMystic]

1. A decent recovery
2. A projectile. :D
3. A decent recovery
4. A projectile. :D
5. A projectile. :D

I wasn't exactly sure if you were looking for different answers. :x

I'll rephrase.

Name the differences between Mario and the characters I've previously stated.

 

[Renki]

I'll rephrase.

Name the differences between Mario and the characters I've previously stated.

Hmm, isn't general consensus that Mario is better than all of those characters except Sonic?

There wouldn't need to be a reason to answer majority of those questions, right? :o

 

[Justblaze647]

@JB: I'd have to make other changes to make it look accurate, but based on this list? Objective side says top of Low tier, but my personal feelings say Mario belongs in Mid tier, between Ness and Bowser.

This makes me interested to see what other changes you'd want to make lol... I think, personally, Mario has potential to surpass Lucas and possibly Ike, but Booser is a maybe, and I think Mario would really be hard pressed to pass Yoshi. And I mean REEEAAALLY hard pressed.

I didnt say maximum potential, because like you said, theres no way to determine that.

Oh sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying lol... It sounds like we're on the same page then

 

[da K.I.D.]

well its not cape, cus ganon has that.
its not fire, cus link and zelda has that
its not jab-jab-downsmash cus link has that.
its not sliding up smash, cus puff has that.
its not range, link
2 aerials in a short hop? zelda
a hat? link.
gloves? sonic
breakdance moves? sonic
a spin move (dair)? also sonic


i have no idea what mario does or has that bottom tier and low tier characters dont have, maybe thats why he low tier...

 

[HeroMystic]

Hmm, isn't general consensus that Mario is better than all of those characters except Sonic?

There wouldn't need to be a reason to answer majority of those questions, right? :o

There is, considering people think Mario is worse than the characters below him.

@JB: I pay alot of attention to low and bottom half of mid tier since that's where I aim Mario for, thus I have to analyze other characters. Bowser's placement is very questionable, and Link would be higher on my list (Low tier), and Mario passing Yoshi is pretty realistic. Ness' rise feels like a hype train even though he does have the tournament results to back it up, so I don't question it, and Sonic's placement seems solid to me since he's the best punisher in the game.

@K.I.D: Congrats, you proved that you know nothing about Mario. Therefore your judgement is moot.

 

[Justblaze647]

^Troll attempt successful^

also, lmfao

edit: meant for da kid

 

[A2ZOMG]

as far as I can tell, some of his only redeeming qualities lie in the fact that he has abilities that none of his players can master and put into practice.

other than that, nothing about him really makes him better than other characters.
he has combos... ok, so does ganon...
hes kinda hard to gimp... well so is jpuff
he has a decent projectile and a long ranged f smash... link has better projectiles and imo, a better f smash.

better question might be, why would mario NOT deserved to fall a couple spots?

of course, im not sbr, but from my pov, his current placing doesnt seem outlandish to me at all.

EDIT: one spot =/= drastic fall

Mario's Fireballs are better than Link's projectiles in that they are more spammable and offer more followup options. They control just as much space if not more, and are very good followup options from F-throw as well.

Mario's F-smash is waaaaaay better than Link's. Mario's F-smash does a lot more damage/knockback (Link's kills you at like 120% at the earliest uncharged, Mario's Up-angled F-smash kills you at around 95% or so), has MORE range (the only F-smashes that outrange it are Falco's, Wolfs, DDD's, and ZSS), and really isn't much less safe at all.

Mario also edgecamps better than all the mentioned characters, has better out of shield options, and some really good frame advantages on spaced aerials, and the ability to Jab cancel into D-smash on the majority of the cast. His Up-smash can slide half of BF timed correctly and is capable of killing heavies at 125% when executed this way.

Also Cape Stalling is one of the best spacing adjustment tools in the game, and by itself is also a good disjointed spacer that avoids grabs and can be used to change which direction Mario is facing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

well its not cape, cus ganon has that.
its not fire, cus link and zelda has that
its not jab-jab-downsmash cus link has that.
its not sliding up smash, cus puff has that.
its not range, link
2 aerials in a short hop? zelda
a hat? link.
gloves? sonic
breakdance moves? sonic
a spin move (dair)? also sonic


i have no idea what mario does or has that bottom tier and low tier characters dont have, maybe thats why he low tier...

Yeah, but what character has all of that other than our beloved Mario?

Also Cape Stalling is one of the best spacing adjustment tools in the game.

On a serious note, does B-Reverse affect the Cape Stall in cool ways, first Cape or otherwise?

 

[MJG]

Mario's Fireballs are better than Link's projectiles in that they are more spammable and offer more followup options. They control just as much space if not more, and are very good followup options from F-throw as well.

Mario's F-smash is waaaaaay better than Link's. Mario's F-smash does a lot more damage/knockback (Link's kills you at like 120% at the earliest uncharged, Mario's Up-angled F-smash kills you at around 95% or so), has MORE range (the only F-smashes that outrange it are Falco's, Wolfs, DDD's, and ZSS), and really isn't much less safe at all.

Mario also edgecamps better than all the mentioned characters, has better out of shield options, and some really good frame advantages on spaced aerials, and the ability to Jab cancel into D-smash on the majority of the cast. His Up-smash can slide half of BF timed correctly and is capable of killing heavies at 125% when executed this way.

Also Cape Stalling is one of the best spacing adjustment tools in the game, and by itself is also a good disjointed spacer that avoids grabs and can be used to change which direction Mario is facing.

A lot of this post almost seems character biased (minus the edge-camping part)

 

[A2ZOMG]

On a serious note, does B-Reverse affect the Cape Stall in cool ways, first Cape or otherwise?

I fooled around with B sticking and retreating Capes look kinda cool, but it's a small effect.

B reversals on Capes look best on...the platform Cape Glide lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, but what character has all of that other than our beloved Mario?

Reflex clearly gets the point. Therefore he gets a high five.

On a serious note, does B-Reverse affect the Cape Stall in cool ways, first Cape or otherwise?

It's good during Cape Jump, for intercepting incoming aerials since you drift backwards, and the cape doesn't come out very fast, so it definitely helps. As far as Cape Stall goes, not really. Minor at best.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Mario's Fireballs are better than Link's projectiles in that they are more spammable and offer more followup options. They control just as much space if not more, and are very good followup options from F-throw as well.

bombs alone seem to be better than fireballs due to more damage and being able to control where they go, and thats with out includes rangs and arrows.

Mario's F-smash is waaaaaay better than Link's. Mario's F-smash does a lot more damage/knockback (Link's kills you at like 120% at the earliest uncharged, Mario's Up-angled F-smash kills you at around 95% or so), has MORE range (the only F-smashes that outrange it are Falco's, Wolfs, DDD's, and ZSS), and really isn't much less safe at all.

im still iffy on your "marios f smash has god range" notion. ive seen the video where he stands outside of peoples f smash range and then stuttersteps them. but it didnt seem to account for every other character stutterstepping their f smashes, and unless mario somehow stuttersteps farther than everyone else, it doesnt actually mean the move has that much range. i mean, sonic can f smash out of a run, but we dont go around saying our f smash has more range than everyone elses...

Mario also edgecamps better than all the mentioned characters

I will admit that I forgot this part. but I dont see it helping him all that much because it has a lot of holes in it, and a lot of characters can just leave him alone because they beat him on stage anyway.

has better out of shield options

up smash out of shield is good but its not unique to mario and up b out of shield isnt that great. it puts the situation back to neutral with the opponent at +~8% which doesnt really change much in the grand scheme.

and some really good frame advantages on spaced aerials

cant every character do this?

and the ability to Jab cancel into D-smash on the majority of the cast.

link.

His Up-smash can slide half of BF timed correctly and is capable of killing heavies at 125% when executed this way.

jigglypuff. and isnt that without DI?
For the record, regardless of whether this is one of those instances, people need to stop using numbers without DI. EVERYONE DIs, and having without DI numbers is pretty much pointless at this point.

Also Cape Stalling is one of the best spacing adjustment tools in the game, and by itself is also a good disjointed spacer that avoids grabs and can be used to change which direction Mario is facing.

even when I take all of these things into account I just dont see him as being any better than yoshi. every character in the game has nuance moves that they can take advantage of. that doesnt make them any better when you realise every character is like that.

 

[HeroMystic]

link.

Link's isn't unblockable.

 

[Justblaze647]

even when I take all of these things into account I just dont see him as being any better than yoshi.

Quoted because I agree. I really don't see Mario ever being better than Yoshi is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

bombs alone seem to be better than fireballs due to more damage and being able to control where they go, and thats with out includes rangs and arrows.

Bombs are good but still, the problem with all of Link's projectiles is startup time. It takes time to pull a bomb to do w/e. So overall, Mario's projectile game is better because it gets results faster.

im still iffy on your "marios f smash has god range" notion. ive seen the video where he stands outside of peoples f smash range and then stuttersteps them. but it didnt seem to account for every other character stutterstepping their f smashes, and unless mario somehow stuttersteps farther than everyone else, it doesnt actually mean the move has that much range. i mean, sonic can f smash out of a run, but we dont go around saying our f smash has more range than everyone elses...

Mario, Ganondorf, Sonic, and Captain Falcon are the only characters in this game that actually get a range boost when doing a reverse F-smash.

Mario's range boost I'm pretty sure is the largest of those characters by far, while nobody else gains any range from doing a reverse F-smash.

And if you want to go so far to stutter step out of Dashdance, Mario's F-smash can in fact outdistance ZSS's F-smash.

The most important thing however is that Mario's F-smash has from what I tested the 5th longest STANDING range in the game.

up smash out of shield is good but its not unique to mario and up b out of shield isnt that great. it puts the situation back to neutral with the opponent at +~8% which doesnt really change much in the grand scheme.

Excuse me but tell me who implements Up-smash out of shield better than Mario. Mario's Up-smash covers both sides really well and in particular is very good against crossovers. AND it's a kill move. Luigi would do better, except he slides way too much for this to ever be viable most of the time.

Most other Up-smashes are either slower or weaker, or in Fox's case it has to be sweetspotted.

On BF Mario's Up-B can however be used to land on the top platform. It's frame 3, allowing it to actually punish Marth's fastfalled F-air before Marth can Up-B.

cant every character do this?

Not many characters are only -6 on block with spaced aerials. Yeah sure virtually everyone can get some kind of virtual safety from retreats, but Mario actually has low enough ending lag to pressure.

jigglypuff. and isnt that without DI?

Actually that's WITH DI. That's how early I've killed Donkey Kong players in legit matches where they are DIing everything at every possible opportunity.

Mario is clearly better than Yoshi. Better kill moves, better camping, safer approaches.

 

[Matador]

bombs alone seem to be better than fireballs due to more damage and being able to control where they go, and thats with out includes rangs and arrows.

I disagree with projectiles being better overall since most excel in a very specific area. Mario's aren't as good for camping as Link's can be, for instance...and that all comes down to what that character specifically needs. Mario generally doesn't need to worry about being projectile camped because he has cape. Link would probably have a more difficult time against it.

That being said, Mario's are better for approaching since he can follow directly behind them for a pseudo-rushdown effect. That's only one of the approaching applications.

im still iffy on your "marios f smash has god range" notion. ive seen the video where he stands outside of peoples f smash range and then stuttersteps them. but it didnt seem to account for every other character stutterstepping their f smashes, and unless mario somehow stuttersteps farther than everyone else, it doesnt actually mean the move has that much range. i mean, sonic can f smash out of a run, but we dont go around saying our f smash has more range than everyone elses...

Mario's stutterstep actually DOES go further than every other character's, with Sonic at a close second IIRC.

Mario also has the benefit of a decently sized disjoint and sweetspot.

up smash out of shield is good but its not unique to mario and up b out of shield isnt that great. it puts the situation back to neutral with the opponent at +~8% which doesnt really change much in the grand scheme.

It actually does make some difference...now they have an attack that, properly spaced, isn't safe on your shield. They can no longer lay down pressure in the same fashion, and you also have the power to camp them because their approach has been thwarted. After all, that damage builds if you're playing a campy game...that versatility in some match-ups is extremely useful.

And upB does 12% IIRC.

jigglypuff. and isnt that without DI?
For the record, regardless of whether this is one of those instances, people need to stop using numbers without DI. EVERYONE DIs, and having without DI numbers is pretty much pointless at this point.

A2Z tested this awhile back I believe...while performing the sliding Usmash, you're required to charge...that lowers the KO % by quite a bit.

 

[HeroMystic]

A2Z tested this awhile back I believe...while performing the sliding Usmash, you're required to charge...that lowers the KO % by quite a bit.

I can vouch for this, I've done this against DK. Snake too, though I think it was more like 135%.

 

[Justblaze647]

With all of this debate going on... I gotta ask you mario mains:

Do you think you're character is bad?

Because he really is... I promise

 

[Matador]

Every low tier character is bad, lmao.

I don't like what "good" means in this game though. Snake, Falco, MK, Diddy, D3...all just ******** programming ****-ups.

I've played a LOT of competitive games...but Snake still makes me lol so hard in a "wtf were they thinking?!" kind of way...especially if you put him next to a character like Ganon...

The idea behind advocating Mario's awesomeness and repping him in tourneys is the idea that we don't believe he's as bad as he's made out to be...lol. He's still bad, but...

 

[Juushichi]

With all of this debate going on... I gotta ask you mario mains:

Do you think you're character is bad?

Because he really is... I promise

They see me trollin'...

(Also, most, if not all Mario mains realize their character is not "good" [I'd hesitate to call Mario bad though.], but I hardly see what that question has to do with anything.) It's not like we're advocating for Mario to be the best in the game or anything of the sort, lol.

 

[Justblaze647]

Oh okay. I just wanted to be sure you guys weren't fighting for him to jump up like Pit or something...

Carry on then

 

[HeroMystic]

We're moreso fighting for him to not drop rather than to rise.

 

[Justblaze647]

I really can't imagine him dropping too much further down the list, tbh

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Even outside of stutter step, Mario leans back and isn't left terrible open after the F-Smash comes out.

It's like Bowser (Melee or Brawl)'s F-Smash in the way that the lean can help dodge moves.

The stutter step is still quite sizable, too. It's a really good move.

 

[Shaya]

DP, if you are talking about Lain... he doesnt think ICs beats Peach... He didnt say that in discussions.

Hero, drastic fall as in bottom tier status. I doubt I could justify their reasons for wanting such a thing, but it didnt happen either way.

Ive answered Pit too many times now in this thread. Hell even the first post gives an understandable reasoning if you think of the contra positive of it.

 

[Justblaze647]

Okay then, time for a change of subject matter.

First, watch the Grand Finals of this tourney...

Do you guys think its at all possible for Diddy to usurp Snake as the number two on future lists?

 

[Sasha]

I just think it's funny that the highest character in this list from the original twelve in Smash64 is Pikachu, who's the best in that game.

And the three highest Melee characters were among the best in Melee.

I wonder what that says about how hard they tried to balance this game.

 

[Matador]

Maybe...but Diddy has more legitimate bad match-ups than Snake.

Most of Snake's bad match-ups are very close to even.

And I'm talking about in practice, not just match-up charts and ratios. Luigi and Marth give Diddy trouble AS WELL AS Mk.

Snake...he has ICs, Oli, D3...all could be considered rather close to even IIRC...and he has a close match-up with MK, same as Diddy.

That and, looking purely from attributes, I'd say Snake > Diddy. That's just me though.

 

[Justblaze647]

That and, looking purely from attributes, I'd say Snake > Diddy. That's just me though.

Yes, but also consider how those attributes stack up when pitted against each other. Normally, Snake was being forced to play Diddy's game, in that he spent a lot of time trying to control the nanerz...

Just a thought.

 

[Realmz]

How come Toon Link moved up 2 spots? I'm not insisting otherwise, I'm just curious what changed. Same for Pit. Or is it just because characters above them were deemed worse than them?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think every character could stand to use nanners better, especially MK.

hes really good, and I dont even think it will happen by the time the next tier list comes out, but eventually diddy is going to move down, at least a tier.
@realmz
a couple other characters got worse and tink didnt.

 

[Matador]

I think every character could stand to use nanners better, especially MK.

hes really good, and I dont even think it will happen by the time the next tier list comes out, but eventually diddy is going to move down, at least a tier.
@realmz
a couple other characters got worse and tink didnt.

QFT...I've been saying since day one that he's good, but mainly because winning or losing hinges heavily on match-up knowledge...moreso than vs ICs.

If you don't know the match-up or how to deal with nanners, you WILL lose. He'll overwhelm you from inside your own shield and eventually take you down.

Even then though...people who're really good with Diddy will still cause problems for those who know the ins and outs of the match-up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think diddy will lose a bit more when people start getting more aggressive with him offstage and learn how to properly beat and edgehogg his up b.

 

[Matador]

M2K would've beat ADHD first game of WF at VC7 if ADHD would've released his upB a second earlier when M2K dropped the Nair...

I don't think people see how incredibly useful that is vs his recovery...

 

[smashmachine]

Maybe...but Diddy has more legitimate bad match-ups than Snake.

Most of Snake's bad match-ups are very close to even.

And I'm talking about in practice, not just match-up charts and ratios. Luigi and Marth give Diddy trouble AS WELL AS Mk.

Snake...he has ICs, Oli, D3...all could be considered rather close to even IIRC...and he has a close match-up with MK, same as Diddy.

That and, looking purely from attributes, I'd say Snake > Diddy. That's just me though.

whoa wait...
what?

 

[Matador]

whoa wait...
what?

LOL, my bad. Other way around.

 

[da K.I.D.]

no ulterior motive here,
i already thought ICs were top tier.

but for better or worse does change anybodys perception about them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE1W1FYuVQM

he has matches vs about a 4th of the cast that were just uploaded that are pretty close to all being as decisive as this.

 

[Justblaze647]

ummmm

Cg's are broken?

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I thought Japanese players were supposed to be too smart to get grabbed by ICs.

To answer the question, not really.

 

[Matador]

Why wasn't FD banned? lol