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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

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Nidtendofreak

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He is stupid and broken. They'll do it eventually.
I honestly doubt it, unless they do it for the lulz when the next SSB game comes out and people stop caring about Brawl.

Too many people use him, and it's too hot of a topic for them to want to touch. I'm sure you saw that complete and utter mess that was the polling about MK being banned. Flamewars everywhere, basically no infractions being handed out when half of the frequent posters in those topics should have been banned. Just a nightmare.

Now, imagine how bad it would be if they suddenly announced that MK is in fact banned, which would quickly be followed by people like M2K saying that they are quitting.

@Xey: Even then I don't think Falco would have a good chance of actually hitting anything. It would be entertaining to watch though. "Personally, I prefer the ai-*dies*"
 

TheReflexWonder

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Too many people use him, and it's too hot of a topic for them to want to touch. I'm sure you saw that complete and utter mess that was the polling about MK being banned. Flamewars everywhere, basically no infractions being handed out when half of the frequent posters in those topics should have been banned. Just a nightmare.

Now, imagine how bad it would be if they suddenly announced that MK is in fact banned, which would quickly be followed by people like M2K saying that they are quitting.
A lot of people use him because they "have to," given how much of the cast he steamrolls with little effort, and a lot of MK players understand the situation; Tyrant has said that he wouldn't be upset if MK was banned, for instance. I don't think the backlash would be crippling to the community at all. There's always been a stereotype of Brawl players having a scrub mentality, so it's not like it would be anything new (though I believe this, among many things our community does, would be justified).
 

TheReflexWonder

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Haven't recent tourney results shown decent variety? I mean...top two at apex were olimar and falco...
Mew2King is on another level from any other Meta Knight I can think of, and he doesn't know a lot about most characters; he only knows his own character in and out (at least, he knows Meta Knight much, much better than the others). As a result, he's caught off-guard by obscure characters often, and that's why he's often overestimated the potential of other characters.
It's a shame, too, because if he actually took the time to learn about the game in general, rather than what's at the top of the metagame, Meta Knight would've been banned by now, I imagine.

This seems to be the case for some others, too; Tyrant appears to lose a lot to unfamiliar matchups. I don't understand how any well-informed Meta Knight would lose to characters like Ness and Pokémon Trainer.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Uh oh.

I can see what this is turning into.

Inb4Hylianlaysdownjusticehammeroftyranny
Don't worry, I'm reasonable. Just addressing a point made in the thread; I don't plan on harping on about it.

We really don't talk about the top tiers often enough here.
 

The Truth!

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Mew2King is on another level from any other Meta Knight I can think of, and he doesn't know a lot about most characters; he only knows his own character in and out (at least, he knows Meta Knight much, much better than the others). As a result, he's caught off-guard by obscure characters often, and that's why he's often overestimated the potential of other characters.
It's a shame, too, because if he actually took the time to learn about the game in general, rather than what's at the top of the metagame, Meta Knight would've been banned by now, I imagine.

This seems to be the case for some others, too; Tyrant appears to lose a lot to unfamiliar matchups. I don't understand how any well-informed Meta Knight would lose to characters like Ness and Pokémon Trainer.
Goodness, if you can give that excuse to M2K than you can give it to anyone hes faced. Meta Knights lose because skill and knowledge are still by far the greatest factor in a victory. Mew2King knows more about MK and practices more with him than Im willing to bet anyone else knows about or practices with their own main excluding maybe some people in japan. It's a shame because if people put the same effort into using their own character maybe meta knight ban discussions wouldnt exist.

Also Diddy, Olimar, and Falco really arent obscure characters, lol.

Edit: And why assume theres no answers to planking when it hasnt been explored in practice at all. I dont mean frame data (which needed to be done better anyways). I mean actually attempting to see if it was really broken or "this is annoying and I dont want to deal with it" 'broken'.
 

The Truth!

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He might not be as popular as MK or Snake, but he has decent representation. Although if you exclude everyone outside high tier than he would be among the bottom 3rd.
 

Coney

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why would you think olimar is an obscure character

there's usually one per region, they're usually pretty good, and midwest has them in ****ing droves
 

DanGR

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I read obscure as "not discovered or known about", which is pretty much Olimar in a nutshell from every single Olimar player's point of view regarding the community as a whole.

Best example of his obscurity right now is probably the backroom's most recent discussion of him that was posted in the Olimar threads, and the fact that basically everyone Brood faced at Apex didn't have a clue how to fight him, except DEHF. It's also hilarious how blind this community is to think that Brood is actually 1000x better than every other Oli player out there. You guys seriously can't tell how horrendous m2k is at the matchup (except in the gimping department, which he did well at) just by watching that set?

90% of this community doesn't even know the difference between how much damage and knockback each of the different pikmin do, except that blue throws and purple upsmash hurt more than usual. How about that yellow throws have no initial hitstun, so you can literally kill him as he's throwing you.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Goodness, if you can give that excuse to M2K than you can give it to anyone hes faced. Meta Knights lose because skill and knowledge are still by far the greatest factor in a victory. Mew2King knows more about MK and practices more with him than Im willing to bet anyone else knows about or practices with their own main excluding maybe some people in japan. It's a shame because if people put the same effort into using their own character maybe meta knight ban discussions wouldnt exist.

Also Diddy, Olimar, and Falco really arent obscure characters, lol.
Game and Watch is the best character in the game.
Diddy Kong is the best character in the game.
Ice Climbers are the best character in the game.

Skill and knowledge are important because you have to have an understanding of how certain characters work and apply that knowledge instead of reverting to D-Air camping whenever something is going wrong, which (surprise!) doesn't work on every character. People are lauded as really excellent players and then get dumped on because they think they know everything about the game or they don't care to practice and learn more.

ADHD was considered "on another level" compared to all other Diddy players when he was the one beating M2K. Once people started getting more Diddy experience, the hype faded (though he's still an excellent player, of course).

Excellent Olimar play is few and far between for many regions. Plus, it would seem that Brood knows his stuff. I haven't seen the matches for APEX yet, but Logic's pretty ballin', too.

Falco is the second best character in the game. If anyone could do it, it would be DEHF. :) That being said, there are, like, four really good Falco players, max, so I wouldn't say people often have all the experience they need in that matchup.
 

adumbrodeus

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I read obscure as "not discovered or known about", which is pretty much Olimar in a nutshell from every single Olimar player's point of view regarding the community as a whole.

Best example of his obscurity right now is probably the backroom's most recent discussion of him that was posted in the Olimar threads, and the fact that basically everyone Brood faced at Apex didn't have a clue how to fight him, except DEHF. It's also hilarious how blind this community is to think that Brood is actually 1000x better than every other Oli player out there. You guys seriously can't tell how horrendous m2k is at the matchup (except in the gimping department, which he did well at) just by watching that set?

90% of this community doesn't even know the difference between how much damage and knockback each of the different pikmin do, except that blue throws and purple upsmash hurt more than usual. How about that yellow throws have no initial hitstun, so you can literally kill him as he's throwing you.
Dear god thank you!

Exactly what I've been saying, takes an olimar player to say it.


Here's a more pertinant question though, what percentage of the community knows the frame data for his grab and up-smash?

How about how large the hitbox is for up-smash (with or without yellow)?



Ok, maybe not exactly, but you've got the gist of it, he's good, but he's not at M2K's level, M2k just didn't know the MU and got ***** because of it.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Ok, maybe not exactly, but you've got the gist of it, he's good, but he's not at M2K's level, M2k just didn't know the MU and got ***** because of it.
How do you know he's not at M2K's level?

This sounds like a troll attempt but I'm actually serious.

:059:
 

DanGR

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Of course Brood is really good, perhaps the best Olimar player right now.


It wasn't my intention to take away from that.



And I don't main Olimar anymore. >_>
 

Tesh

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Isn't he supposedly the 3rd best Olimar in Japan? Not the best.
 

Chuee

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M2K isn't horrendous at the Olimar MU lol.
His set vs Brood was nothing like when ADHD beat him consistently.
 

~ Gheb ~

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My understanding is that Brood is the 2nd best Olimar in Japan. Nietono is said to be the best Olimar and from the few vids that are out there I can see why.

:059:
 

Nefarious B

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Whoever said M2K did well gimping Brood, LOL. Watch the set again and see how many random up bs he threw out that were easily dodged and gave brood a free ticket back to the stage.

If M2K has been more patient and forced airdodges and down b to open up down air gimps or simply to continue juggling, he would have won, IMO without it even being that close.
 

Chuee

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If M2K has been more patient and forced airdodges and down b to open up down air gimps or simply to continue juggling, he would have won, IMO without it even being that close.
I just re watched the 2nd game, and he used like 1 Up-b when brood was recovering that didn't hit him. The other one hit brood and killed him at like 78%. Every other time he did exactly what you mentioned.
 

Nefarious B

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Watch the set, there's like, 2-3 of them each game. The main reason MK wins this matchup is because of his ability to keep Olimar recovering endlessly until a kill, and M2K lost that momentum with every whiffed SL attempt
 

The Truth!

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Best example of his obscurity right now is probably the backroom's most recent discussion of him that was posted in the Olimar threads, and the fact that basically everyone Brood faced at Apex didn't have a clue how to fight him, except DEHF. It's also hilarious how blind this community is to think that Brood is actually 1000x better than every other Oli player out there. You guys seriously can't tell how horrendous m2k is at the matchup (except in the gimping department, which he did well at) just by watching that set?
I think almost every character board feels the same way about their discussion, in that sense just about everyone's obscure, lol. Although props to the bbr for even doing that.

As for the set, what I saw was m2k being punished for doing normal 'safe' MK things the second match. After being punished to death and back, he was forced into limiting his options and playing 'horrendously' with MKs true safe attacks. It's not uncommon to see someone have a combo video status style against one person and then turtle against another as their normal style is punished. Obviously the turtling didnt work. I think to simply say m2k played horribly takes away from what brood did, he forced him into playing that way. This isnt meant as offense to other olis, but its not unreasonable that people think brood is '1000x' better.

Ill lend you that m2k probably doesnt have the best character knowledge of oli (although this is true with virtually the entire community and characters that arent their main). However youll be hard pressed to find anyone who's had more mu experience. He's traveled the US and played them, he lives in olimar country. If m2k doesnt have the mu experience you can probably count on one hand the number of people who do.

And as I mentioned before, people for some reason dont apply this knowledge standard to the opponent. How much experience could brood really have against our standard of MKs? As much as m2k has against oli? Possible but I doubt it. Do you suppose brood memorized all the frames and tactics for MK as you expect m2k to know about oli? Its too presumptuous to suppose brood (or anyone) knows the mk matchup as well as m2k does for oli.

Game and Watch is the best character in the game.
Diddy Kong is the best character in the game.
Ice Climbers are the best character in the game.

Skill and knowledge are important because you have to have an understanding of how certain characters work and apply that knowledge instead of reverting to D-Air camping whenever something is going wrong, which (surprise!) doesn't work on every character. People are lauded as really excellent players and then get dumped on because they think they know everything about the game or they don't care to practice and learn more.

ADHD was considered "on another level" compared to all other Diddy players when he was the one beating M2K. Once people started getting more Diddy experience, the hype faded (though he's still an excellent player, of course).

Excellent Olimar play is few and far between for many regions. Plus, it would seem that Brood knows his stuff. I haven't seen the matches for APEX yet, but Logic's pretty ballin', too.

Falco is the second best character in the game. If anyone could do it, it would be DEHF. That being said, there are, like, four really good Falco players, max, so I wouldn't say people often have all the experience they need in that matchup.
1)Im not sure who youre referring to as being lauded and dumped on. If youre talking about m2k he probably plays and practices more than every other pro. If youre talking about other people its probably true, I dont disagree with that.

2)If you mean obscure as in excellent diddy, olimar, and falco players, then an m2k level MK is obscure. Im not sure why this standard is applied one way but no the other. If I had to give the "who has the greatest knowledge and experience in brawl" award to one of those players Id give it to m2k, mostly because no one else tries.
 

TheReflexWonder

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1)Im not sure who youre referring to as being lauded and dumped on. If youre talking about m2k he probably plays and practices more than every other pro. If youre talking about other people its probably true, I dont disagree with that.

2)If you mean obscure as in excellent diddy, olimar, and falco players, then an m2k level MK is obscure. Im not sure why this standard is applied one way but no the other. If I had to give the "who has the greatest knowledge and experience in brawl" award to one of those players Id give it to m2k, mostly because no one else tries.
I'm referring to many players that do well against most high tiers but not much else. M2K doesn't get destroyed, mainly because he's really good at the game and Meta Knight is an unbelievably good character.

But there are a number of excellent Meta Knight mains--M2K, Tyrant, Tearbear, Shadow, Ksizzle, Judge, Dojo...They're everywhere, I thought.
 

The Truth!

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They do well, but no one really dominates except for m2k. And yes, m2k not getting destroyed is a result of him being really good at the game. Quite honestly I see few if anyone at his level, so it makes little difference to me if he wins with ganon or MK.
 

DanGR

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I think almost every character board feels the same way about their discussion, in that sense just about everyone's obscure, lol. Although props to the bbr for even doing that.

As for the set, what I saw was m2k being punished for doing normal 'safe' MK things the second match. After being punished to death and back, he was forced into limiting his options and playing 'horrendously' with MKs true safe attacks. It's not uncommon to see someone have a combo video status style against one person and then turtle against another as their normal style is punished. Obviously the turtling didnt work. I think to simply say m2k played horribly takes away from what brood did, he forced him into playing that way. This isnt meant as offense to other olis, but its not unreasonable that people think brood is '1000x' better.
And this is where all the people that actually know anything about the matchup come in and tell you you're just wrong. How about you ask him why he tends to d-air camp in all the matchups he doesn't know.

Ill lend you that m2k probably doesnt have the best character knowledge of oli (although this is true with virtually the entire community and characters that arent their main). However youll be hard pressed to find anyone who's had more mu experience.

He's traveled the US and played them, he lives in olimar country. If m2k doesnt have the mu experience you can probably count on one hand the number of people who do.

And as I mentioned before, people for some reason dont apply this knowledge standard to the opponent. How much experience could brood really have against our standard of MKs? As much as m2k has against oli? Possible but I doubt it. Do you suppose brood memorized all the frames and tactics for MK as you expect m2k to know about oli? Its too presumptuous to suppose brood (or anyone) knows the mk matchup as well as m2k does for oli.
What makes you believe M2K is good at the matchup when every good Olimar player and likely most of the good MK players say he plays it incorrectly overall?

I don't expect M2K to memorize all of Olimar's frame data and the host of different pikmin related data like I would expect the main of a character that isn't MK to memorize all of MK's frame data. That in mind, I would say it's extremely likely that Brood knows the MK:Olimar matchup a lot better than M2K does considering Olimar is really complex and different, not very popular, and also that MK used to be considered Olimars worst matchup and is still considered one of his few bad matchups, if not his worst, still.

And as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter that Brood lives in Japan, because they've pretty much proven they're good enough to compete with the U.S. scene. I bet their MKs are fine.
 

The Truth!

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All those other good MKs that beat brood? Or all those other olis thatve beaten m2k? Yeah...I wonder how those olis that think m2k is bad at the mu feel about his MU knowledge when they have to play him. Although I get the feeling its probably none of the good olimar players thatve actually played m2k.

Anyways, so youre saying that m2k didnt attempt to turtle and shark after losing game 2? Or youre saying he turtled and sharked all 5 matches? Proof on one or the other of those statements would be nice.

And yes, it is significant that he lives in japan. Youre trying to superimpose our understanding with theirs, when asian style gaming has always been significantly different. Just as an example, they admitted that our MKs werent like theirs, and I get the feeling theyd laugh if we told them MK was once considered a terrible MU for oli.

I don't expect M2K to memorize all of Olimar's frame data and the host of different pikmin related data like I would expect the main of a character that isn't MK to memorize all of MK's frame data. That in mind, I would say it's extremely likely that Brood knows the MK:Olimar matchup a lot better than M2K does
Odd expectations and assumptions. Once again, superimposing...

considering (brood's olimar) is really complex and different, not (common)
considering (m2k's metaknight) is really complex and different, not (common)
I agree ;)
 

-LzR-

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Matchup knowledge has never been and never will be a valid reason for losing a matchup. Get over it.
 

adumbrodeus

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How do you know he's not at M2K's level?

This sounds like a troll attempt but I'm actually serious.

:059:

I believe it's serious, considering who he's beaten it should be.



But look at a couple of things.

1. Even at Apex he was beaten by a number of US players that are well below top level (for example chibo).

2. He significantly underperformed at Gauntlet.

3. DEHF didn't really have much of a problem with him.


Considering that the majority of people know very little about the Olimar MU, but NYC has significant Olimar experience, as does DEHF.

This suggests to me that the fact that the fact that the obscurity of the olimar MU gave him a major boost and he wouldn't be able to take that spot reliably.


For example, people still take him to Delfino Plaza...

M2K isn't horrendous at the Olimar MU lol.
His set vs Brood was nothing like when ADHD beat him consistently.
Yea, he is. Watch the set. MK can basically apply shield pressure against Olimar with impunity, when does M2K take advantage of this fact? No, he did his combo video stuff and then Mk stuff which normally works, but doesn't work on Olimar.


He had no idea what he was doing, that's why he lost.
 

-LzR-

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So if I lose to M2K I can just say I don't know the MU and I am the better player in reality?
 

KuroganeHammer

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Olimar is fine where he is at the moment imo.

Not sure what the match up is, but it obviously has to be winnable.

I don't know why everyone has been so fussed over Olimar winning a major. It's exciting, yeah, but the arguments that have sprung up are pretty lolworthy.
 
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