The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[<π]

^ Sheik has the same thing.

We call it, "The Stomp". :B

Nah... thats not the stomp by any stretch. sheik can do that with all of her aerials though... most characters can do that with all of their aerials right? a rising aerial?

The stomp is using the foward half of shiek's backair normally while land on shield because of the huge sheild slide your opponent will be forced behind you because of bair's hit box properties and have to use a sheild drop option to punish instead of a sheild grab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

you have to get very close before you can jump through with a bair though sfp. you can be grabbed before you leave the ground

rising uair is safer.

Rising uair is less safe, actually, you can shield grab that immediately.

 

[<π]

why not just rising bair at full distance?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

why not just rising bair at full distance?

A few reasons:

1. It's telegraphed. This comes out just as fast but doesn't have to be RAR'd first. If you see a ZSS run at you and RAR, she only has one real option. If she runs at you straight on she has a few options.
2. doesn't lose as much momentum as a RAR bair and doesn't extend ZSS' hurtbox in a way that is punishable. This is part of what makes it safe.

 

[stingers]

theres no way you can shieldgrab a rising uair o.o at least FHed. maybe I need to play zss more lawl

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

theres no way you can shieldgrab a rising uair o.o at least FHed. maybe I need to play zss more lawl

You can be shieldgrabbed XD But even if you weren't, you'd get utilt'd against a lot of opponents pretty much instantly after they shield (like Snake).

This is really more about where it's hitting on shield and how ZSS' hurtbox is positioned. She has no option that hits opponents below her like Marth or MK, this gives her one.

 

[<π]

by the way it looks it hit way too high for MK... IDK it isn't hugely game changing for ZSS IMO its an interesting mix up though.

 

[Spelt]

can't snake just bair oos?

 

[<π]

prob not... too much sheild stun for that I'd wager. takes snake almost ten frames to get air borne anyway...

 

[Nefarious B]

That doesn't hit MK (does it?). That would be stupid(ly good).

Snake can't do anything to tipped bair to begin with unless he sees it coming, in which case he can utilt, so I guess this is about as useful as a normal rising bair.

 

[<π]

its a neat mix up.... that any character in the game can do.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm sure other characters can do it but certainly not "every."

And I doubt it hits MK.

 

[Spelt]

any character who can full hop aerial can.

oh...

 

[<π]

why are we talking about this and not sheik?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

any character who can full hop aerial can.

oh...

THis is a short hop not a full hop. ZSS' SH and FH are both extremely high so I can understand why you wouldn't know the difference.

ZSS' back air has a hitbubble on both sides of her, which makes this possible combined with the awkward height of her short hop which makes the attack hit a strange nonpunishable angle on shield.

 

[Spelt]

No i was talking about other characters. not zss
falco would probably be the only other character that needs to short hop.

 

[demonictoonlink]

why are we talking about this and not sheik?

I love this and it's adorable.

 

[<π]

I love you and I'm adorable.

 

[stingers]

lol. i just ****ing saw this thread

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=131182

phanna is a genius

 

[SSSnake]

that pretty much sums up mk.

 

[<π]

you guys are silly.

Hey BBR like sheik almost as much as I do.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=284040

 

[Purple]

Sheik really does look like a man.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The reason it took ganon 7 years to find zelda. Then shiek blew it the moment some things grew in.

Should shiek/zelda be counted as one character or seperate?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't know if you guys care to see this sort of thing, but I put together a tier list based on the characters discussed so far in the weekly character discussions (plus some recent tourney results, especially where the BBR failed to really discuss a character like Olimar).

Very little (none really) reflects my OWN opinion. This is just how I think thinks will turn out:

MK

Snake
Falco
Diddy Kong
Marth
Wario
Ice Climbers

Pikachu
Olimar
King Dedede
Lucario/ZSS

Toon Link
Peach
Mr. Game and Watch
Fox
ROB
Kirby
Pit
DK

Ike (wasn't discussed but probably in for a big old jump)
Ness/Sonic
Pokemon Trainer/Sheik
Wolf

Bowser (somewhere in low)

Just a guess

 

[Shaya]

in after falco is 2nd.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Falco is not second. No amount of hype will probably ever take Snake out of second place, even if it should. :D

 

[stingers]

Falco is second. I've been saying it since before this list was even released. Snake isn't nearly as good as people say, and Falco has all the tools and representation to be there instead.

 

[Browny]

...

S: Meta Knight, Snake
A: Diddy Falco

S: Meta Knight, Snake
A: Diddy Kong, Marth, Falco

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco

S: Meta Knight, Snake
A: Diddy Kong, Falco

S: Meta Knight, Snake
A: Diddy Kong, Falco

-- over a year old beyond here

Falco has what representation? He has been behind Snake, by a HUGE marging consistantly for brawls entire lifespan and the gap between the two isnt showing any sign of decreasing, if anything its growing. I'm not saying Falco doesnt deserve 2nd on this tier list, but his representation compared to snakes is nothing to suggest that.

 

[Shaya]

Falco's broken.

 

[stingers]

representation at the top level.

character rankings list only shows overall metagame trends. top level trends are different.

 

[Shaya]

Also, Larry is the legendary super saiyan of legend.

 

[-LzR-]

Falco has so much potential and he is possibly the best bet against Meta Knight. His projectile is the best in the game, his chaingrab causes fear. He is hard to gimp if they are doing it right and they have all kinds of tricks that are hard to keep up with.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And as I'm always saying: Falco will never deserve to be second as long as MK exists, and there is no LGL. He has nothing to use against planking. Even Ike probably has a better chance against most types of planking, if only for his huge hitboxes that angle down slightly (Ftilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Eruption, Jab 3). Those are two issues that Snake handles marginally better.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And as I'm always saying: Falco will never deserve to be second as long as MK exists, and there is no LGL.

This has been bugging me for a while but apparently people think that LGL is the only solution to ledge camping while in actuality it isn't a solution at all. But as I said before I can't take a tier list serious that is based on a broken ruletset so I guess I should just leave it at that.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco's method for evading the ledge camping of a character is to get that percent lead. People fail to recognize that solution. Falco has the inherit camping advantage in a number of match-ups. Getting the lead should not be duly difficult. From that point on, Falco negates any methods of ledge camping.

If falco mess up that lead, he is screwed against ledge camping. That is the only downside.

 

[Meru.]

And as I'm always saying: Falco will never deserve to be second as long as MK exists, and there is no LGL. He has nothing to use against planking. Even Ike probably has a better chance against most types of planking, if only for his huge hitboxes that angle down slightly (Ftilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Eruption, Jab 3). Those are two issues that Snake handles marginally better.

Which character has something to use against planking anyway?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's also a very large downside, one he is potentially not be able to fix. It can be difficult to always have the lead against a good opponent. If the opponent gets the lead, and manages to get to the ledge with his lead still in one piece, Falco is going to struggle a lot.

@Gheb: Regardless, nothing will be put in place to hinder MK's planking. LGL? Hurts other characters like Pit. Ground Time Wins? Not only laughably stupid, it can heavily effect other characters and screws up MUs. Not happening. The only way to limit MK's planking without artificially buffing or nerfing other characters is to target MK only. In which case, he needs to be banned. They won't ban MK, so nothing will happen.

@Yay: MK's? Nobody. Other planking like Pits? Depends on the character and stage obviously. For example, some characters like Ike can stay just far enough back and throw out large moves in attempts to hit the planker. Other characters actually have a chance of hitting them with their projectiles (Link, Toon Link, Snake to a lesser extent). And a few characters can simply use their amazing mobility/multiple jumps and risk hitting the planker as the planker isn't MK/attempt to steal the ledge themselves. (Wario, MK, maybe Kirby and Jigglypuff) Obviously, all of these things have a very small chance of success, but they are all bigger chances than what Falco has.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do not know about a bigger chance of hitting, but rather a safer chance of working. Falco could easily throw himself off the ledge in the attempt to edgehog or Bair someone. But, that's not very safe now is it

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The only way to limit MK's planking without artificially buffing or nerfing other characters is to target MK only. In which case, he needs to be banned. They won't ban MK, so nothing will happen.

He is stupid and broken. They'll do it eventually.

 

[Meru.]

\
@Yay: MK's? Nobody. Other planking like Pits? Depends on the character and stage obviously. For example, some characters like Ike can stay just far enough back and throw out large moves in attempts to hit the planker. Other characters actually have a chance of hitting them with their projectiles (Link, Toon Link, Snake to a lesser extent). And a few characters can simply use their amazing mobility/multiple jumps and risk hitting the planker as the planker isn't MK/attempt to steal the ledge themselves. (Wario, MK, maybe Kirby and Jigglypuff) Obviously, all of these things have a very small chance of success, but they are all bigger chances than what Falco has.

Oh I see. I thought you were only talking about MK's planking in your previous post. ;p

Falco does have some ledge problems indeed. His recovery doesnt really help either.