The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[-LzR-]

Why can't you fastfall with a bomb wtf

 

[smashkng]

During knockback you have to throw the Bomb in order to fast fall ASAP and you can't fast fall by throwing items until the throw animation ends so his FF helps less than without holding any items. Zair and AD don't fast fall and generally take too long time to finish so he gets the time to fast fall before it's too late for him.

 

[Conviction]

Link's is 3rd....Fox's fast fall is faster due to acceleration. DDD's is 1st though.

 

[-LzR-]

I understand, not that link recovers much anyways.

 

[Laem]

yes he does....
he shouldnt be able to win lowtier tourneys if he doesnt recover much anyways...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link's recovery is only bad in practice when he's spiked by Falco or hit off-stage at a 3:00 angle, as with MK's dair or Fox's dsmash.

He can recover in most other circumstances, except when fighting characters who have tools tailored to gimping him (unfortunately, most top/high tier characters, but not all).

I wouldn't say Link's recovery is "good" but you have to consider context; in many cases, Link's recovery actually does manage to do the job. The few in which it doesn't is part of what makes him non-viable.

Link's great Momentum Canceling is so mostly because of having the 2nd fastest fast fall in the game (only DDD has a faster one), but you can't fast fall when you have a Bomb in your hand. Without his ability to fast fall he has the survivability of only a mid-heavy character. Plus Bomb recovery is very situational in Brawl and barely helps his recovery.

Also, Link's projectiles are so slow and easy to deal with for almost any character including Ganondorf, without damage output like Snake's Grenades. His Zair however is good but it's in not super-hard to deal with like Samus' and loses lots of its usefulness against small characters including MK.

This post demonstrates only a base understanding of Link's high-end game. Theoretically all projectiles are "easy" to PS. In practice, the story is often very different. There are people who post here and have claimed to be able to PS every Falco laser and approach him; does that make his lasers less effective?

Look at it this way; shielding (or even power shielding) is a reaction to an attack (or the expectation of an attack). Link's projectiles are all slow, but have unique effects. The projectiles may not always hit the opponent, but they force a reaction that can be punished and Link has the tools to capitalize, and a close-range zoning game that is more than decent (but probably not great).

This is all being very nice, though; the reality is that one will probably ever power shield every projectile Link launches at them. Link's projectiles are flexible, have varying start-up times and effects, and are easy to stagger in such a way that the point in which they land is not predictable. This makes approaching Link from a distance (or at mid-range) potentially difficult, but not on a technical level. Where Falco has projectiles that while predictable are difficult to deal with on a practical technical level, Link's projectiles are staggered and unpredictable when used correctly.

Link's biggest problem is not his long-range or ground-based kit; his biggest problems are (in no particular order) that his recovery is exploited by certain good characters, his out of shield options are slow, his grab lags when whiffed and has a slow start-up giving him limited shield options, and his air game is not sufficient for juggling (although juggling him is pretty risky), but more for zoning. If Link had a better uair, he'd be so much better, I think.

I don't think Link is good enough to compete at the top level, but putting him in the same tier as Ganondorf is pretty outrageous.

 

[-LzR-]

I agree with Link being too low. I mean come on, he has projectiles, strong moves, decent range and is not horribly ******** like Ganon. He also has a great zair.

 

[Chuee]

Link's projectiles are easily PSed besides bombs.

 

[smashkng]

Link isn't a strong character, with proper DI and Momentum Canceling characters like Snake can survive a Fsmash at percents as high as 160% and his kill moves are so punishable on block. His only "strong" move is Dair which is so predictable and punishable on landing. And his projectiles are no way at the level of Falco's lasers.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link's projectiles are easily PSed besides bombs.

It's almost as though you didn't read anything I wrote.

Link isn't a strong character, with proper DI and Momentum Canceling characters like Snake can survive a Fsmash at percents as high as 160% and his kill moves are so punishable on block. His only "strong" move is Dair which is so predictable and punishable on landing. And his projectiles are no way at the level of Falco's lasers.

It's almost as though you didn't read anything I wrote.

 

[Chuee]

I read it.
You just said that you wouldn't PS all of his projectiles.
Ok, so if bombs aren't easily PSed that leaves him with arrows and rang.
And link's rarely use arrows so that leaves him with rang.
And you have to wait awhile after you use rang before you can use it again.
And it's hitbox doesn't have any range for a projectile.

Comparing Link's projectiles to Falco's?
lol.
Falco's
comes out faster
has less lag
has more range
can be used repetitively

 

[YagamiLight]

It's almost as though you didn't read anything I wrote.

Welcome to SWF. This place is like super-strawman land.

I'd make a giant post saying that I agree with you, SFP, but I really don't want to do all that. Your thoughts on Link are solid and on point and he is constantly underrated by the community. Most of your opinions are on point anyway, so I appreciate you constantly defending your views even if others resort to using ad hominem attacks against you.

Link is not 2nd worst. All I'm going to say.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok folks, ASSUME the projectile will be able to be PS'd, does it still acomplish anything?


If so, then it's useful, if not it's essentially useless (well it will be when people get off their collective butts and learn to PS consistently).


Falco's lasers still provide amazing spacing control which is more then enough to be a dominating force.



Are Link's useful like that? I'm of the opinion that even when can be PS'd they can still create consistent effective spacing traps, and therefore are still useful.



Link's real problem is OOS.

 

[smashkng]

Link's killing problems are worse than you think SFP. While it's not at Samus' level they're a problem when you don't rack up damage fast enough. I mean most of his early kills are because the opponent hasn't DIed properly. I'm not saying you can't completely dodge the projectiles but they don't rack up damage very fast or make him almost unapproachable at all. The damage output in his projectiles aren't amazing at all either. His Boomerang deal like 4% damage, his Bombs like 9% but they're not really designed for camping and uncharged Arrows like 4% damage and fully charged arrows like 12% but then if you charge them the opponent will see it coming and just shield it without taking any damage, with at the Arrows and the Boomerang leaving cooldown that allows the opponent to punish. I've seen punishes in videos with moves like Fox's Usmash after Powershielding his Boomerang.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I read it.
You just said that you wouldn't PS all of his projectiles.
Ok, so if bombs aren't easily PSed that leaves him with arrows and rang.
And link's rarely use arrows so that leaves him with rang.
And you have to wait awhile after you use rang before you can use it again.
And it's hitbox doesn't have any range for a projectile.

Comparing Link's projectiles to Falco's?
lol.
Falco's
comes out faster
has less lag
has more range
can be used repetitively

You read it, but you didn't understand it. I didn't say Link's projectiles were as good as Falco's. I implied that the same arguments you have used against Link's projectiles could be used against Falco's assuming a very high skil level.

By the way, ROB's projectiles share a lot of the same limitations that Link's do (and more) and his camping game remains strong-ish.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

So who's worse than Link then?

You're only really looking at Zelda, Jigglypuff, Samus and possibly Captain Falcon to take that delightful spot of 2nd worse

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ok folks, ASSUME the projectile will be able to be PS'd, does it still acomplish anything?


If so, then it's useful, if not it's essentially useless (well it will be when people get off their collective butts and learn to PS consistently).


Falco's lasers still provide amazing spacing control which is more then enough to be a dominating force.



Are Link's useful like that? I'm of the opinion that even when PS'd they still create consistent effective spacing traps, and therefore are still useful.



Link's real problem is OOS.

Bam.

Link's killing problems are worse than you think SFP. While it's not at Samus' level they're a problem when you don't rack up damage fast enough. I mean most of his early kills are because the opponent hasn't DIed properly. I'm not saying you can't completely dodge the projectiles but they don't rack up damage very fast or make him almost unapproachable at all. The damage output in his projectiles aren't amazing at all either. His Boomerang deal like 4% damage, his Bombs like 9% but they're not really designed for camping and uncharged Arrows like 4% damage and fully charged arrows like 12% but then if you charge them the opponent will see it coming and just shield it without taking any damage, with at the Arrows and the Boomerang leaving cooldown that allows the opponent to punish. I've seen punishes in videos with moves like Fox's Usmash after Powershielding his Boomerang.

I didn't mention his problems killing, but you are correct in that he doesn't have many good kill moves. I think of early kills as more of an advantage than later kills being a disadvantage, though. Many mid-tier and high tier characters kill very late. It isn't as big a deal as we used to think it is.

So who's worse than Link then?

You're only really looking at Zelda, Jigglypuff, Samus and possibly Captain Falcon to take that delightful spot of 2nd worse

Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Samus are all worse than Link. Captain Falcon is a lot better than Link.

I don't think low/bottom tier is very big in Brawl. Lucas, Link, Ganondorf, Bowser, Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Samus are low tier or worse in my opnion. Mario, Yoshi and Captain Falcon are pretty debatable, and I could agree with either argument. Ike is mid tier.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Jiggs is much better then Link, MUCH BETTER.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Jiggs is much better then Link, MUCH BETTER.

I can't agree. Care to expound?

 

[Chuee]

Samus is also better than Link.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Samus is also better than Link.

I agree with that. The only real fault samus has is trying to kill someone. Apart from that, she can pretty much outshine or do nearly as well as link in a lot of areas. Camping is something they both excel at very well. Samus being heavy yet very floaty allows her to survive to high percents while also being able to get out of juggles. Plus, her recovery is not really nearly as horrid.

But, it's really between jiggz and link anyway lol To function to differently it's hard to get a grasp on who is better. Overall, I would say a superior recovery helps jiggs out more so than link's camping game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I can't agree. Care to expound?

I believe we've had this conversation before.



Jiggs can run the clock a lot better then link, and the vast majority of the cast, she's just too maneuverable and can be too safe.



Also, Diddy MU.

 

[Meru.]

Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Samus are all worse than Link. Captain Falcon is a lot better than Link.

Ha, I'm thinking the complete opposite.

I also dont see how Zelda is worse than Link. Zelda is sooooooooooooooooooooooo underrated.

 

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuff just is better than Link and so is Samus, about the others, I have no idea.

 

[Purple]

Link's killing problems are worse than you think SFP. While it's not at Samus' level they're a problem when you don't rack up damage fast enough. I mean most of his early kills are because the opponent hasn't DIed properly. I'm not saying you can't completely dodge the projectiles but they don't rack up damage very fast or make him almost unapproachable at all. The damage output in his projectiles aren't amazing at all either. His Boomerang deal like 4% damage, his Bombs like 9% but they're not really designed for camping and uncharged Arrows like 4% damage and fully charged arrows like 12% but then if you charge them the opponent will see it coming and just shield it without taking any damage, with at the Arrows and the Boomerang leaving cooldown that allows the opponent to punish. I've seen punishes in videos with moves like Fox's Usmash after Powershielding his Boomerang.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Gonna get reamed for asking but w/e:

Fox has the same counters as Falco, plus Sheik. Sheik is a terrible character. Many top players including Mew2King believe that Fox soft counters MK. Fox's heroes place extraordinarily well. What is Fox doing in D tier?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Gonna get reamed for asking but w/e:

Fox has the same counters as Falco, plus Sheik. Sheik is a terrible character. Many top players including Mew2King believe that Fox soft counters MK. Fox's heroes place extraordinarily well. What is Fox doing in D tier?

I would think that would be obvious.


Prior to TKD beating notable mks, people thought fox was teribad.


I personally think that people are overhyping him, but he now has some substance.

 

[OverLade]

Gonna get reamed for asking but w/e:

Fox has the same counters as Falco, plus Sheik. Sheik is a terrible character. Many top players including Mew2King believe that Fox soft counters MK. Fox's heroes place extraordinarily well. What is Fox doing in D tier?

LOOOOOOOL Fox is a hella good, mabye even B tier, but Fox sure as hell doesn't soft counter or even go even with MK... He still is one of MKs closest matchups though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOOOOOOOL Fox is a hella good, mabye even B tier, but Fox sure as hell doesn't soft counter or even go even with MK... He still is one of MKs closest matchups though.

I don't know enough about the match-up to draw any conclusions of my own. But thanks for your input.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Meta Knight does not have soft counters or even matchups and it's a bit disappointing that some people ignore history blatantly enough to think he does.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

lol @ this silly notion that ppl honestly think their char goes even / soft counters mk


were do ppl think up this bull****

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No Fox main has claimed that in this thread. The best MK player in the world did in the BBR discussion thread, though.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

hes said alot of stuff tho that dont make sense, aka falco ***** ddd 80:20

the prob with fox is ppl skip over him because they just dont wanna deal with getting gay hard counterd by sheik, n pikachu. Its all about the effort a player is willing to put into the character. N to get easily ***** by just 1 tilt, n 1 grab really chases people away from fox. Which is dumb, hes got alot to offer in terms of his move set, over all speed n combo ability. Ibh, i'd prolly use him more if i could figure him about abit.

But yea...if ppl would quit looking at fox's weaknesses, n start looking at what hes good at doing. I believe fox can make da magic happen. It all starts with having n open mind about it.

 

[lilseph]

fox vs MK is 50:50 BTW.

Fox has an answer to everything MK does, and MK really has to play different and switch up his game a lot to handle fox. Not to mention Fox's Usmash can kill MK at about (not to sure) 95% - 100%

 

[Browny]

usmash will kill considerably earlier than that...

and fox doesnt have an answer to planking (or a multitude of mk tactics i cbf listing)

 

[lilseph]

Well who does have an answer to MK planking?

Point i'm trying to get at is that MK vs Fox isn't as bad as people thought. Just because its MK doesn't mean he will **** X character.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fox's shine delay allows him to exploit MK's poor air mobility, I think. THat's one weakness I guess?

 

[-LzR-]

He may do fine against MK, but that doesn't make up for the unwinnable matchups.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In the american ruleset Fox doesn't go even with MK and that's what this tier list is based upon. I personally find the US ruleset pretty bad tbh [timer should be 10 minutes or at least 9 and many stages are not fit for competitive play in my opinion] so I would never use it as a basis for match-up ratios, tier lists and actual tournament play.

In the european ruleset it might be even though [we always have Rainboww Cruise banned now and many TOs are also inclined to ban Brinstar] and in the TJ ruleset Fox may even have the advantage because planking,aircamping and time-outs are non-issues. I'm not sure what it's like in Japan but they think it's an even match-up and they have more good Foxes than any other region or country and also a more balanced ruleset than the USA. Personally, I was hoping that the TJ ruleset would become the standard ruleset at non-MLG tournaments in the US but with the disapproval of the BBR that seems unlikely. I will definitely use it as the standard ruleset at my local tournaments from now on.

And Link is indeed underrated but so is every other character except Meta Knight and Ganondorf.

 

[Conviction]

He may do fine against MK, but that doesn't make up for the unwinnable matchups.

I feel that repeat myself a lot by I'll say it again.

Out of three ICs is the CLOSEST to unwinnable.