The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[YagamiLight]

jigglypuff has good range, good pokes/pressure, average killing ability, amazing speed, good grab game.

she is definitely nowhere near as bad as ganon.
or anyone in the triforce of shame, for that matter.

Ganondorf has good range (way better than Jigglypuff's, may I add), amazing kill power, amazing damage racking potential, something we call a ground game and a very solid launch resistance / fall speed combination to aid in survivability.

He's nowhere as bad as Jigglypuff.

Listing character strengths and hoping that it'll be definitive is a bit flawed because everyone has several good points. It's just that the lower you go on the tier the more weaknesses cover up those strong points.

 

[Spelt]

Well i would list ganon's weaknesses, but i don't have all day.


Jigglypuff's weaknesses are that she's light and her ground game, besides grabs, is sub par.

 

[-LzR-]

But Jigglypuff has a good dair. Like Fox, it leads into a kill move. Fox kills with dair combined at about 80-90% while Jiggz does the same, but at about 50-60%.
Soo... Her killpower must suck.

 

[stingers]

only kills on trip lol...

 

[YagamiLight]

Jigglypuff's weaknesses are quite a bit more extensive than "She's light and has a sub-par ground game."

Let's look at this objectively:
- She is the easiest character in the game to kill not only because she has the lowest launch resistance, but also because she has the slowest fall speed.
- Previously mentioned slow fall speed makes her susceptible to juggles.
- Her run speed is the worst in the game, below Ganondorf's.
- Her spotdodge is horrible (3-16 / 25), her airdodge is subpar (4-29 / 49) and her rolls are pretty much average.
- Her kill moves are either very unreliable (Drillrest, if SDIed, is going to get you killed at 20%) or are the same moves that she uses for spacing purposes (Fair).
- Her range is mediocre, but this is offset by her high air speed. On the ground, however, this renders most of her moves unviable.
- Her recovery, while very solid distance-wise, is also highly predictable and susceptible to interception.
- She lacks a projectile, meaning that she has to approach and, as a result, be constantly near the oppponent which (due to a lack of range and her being easy to kill) is very undesirable.

There's more I could say but the point I was trying to prove is that you can't say "She's light and has a sub-par ground game." and hope that it's going to fool anyone into thinking that Jigglypuff is some sort of amazing underrated character with made-up weaknesses.

 

[Shaya]

really... her spot dodge is 3-16/25? wow.... really?
That would be the worst spot dodge in the game... considering I believed all other spot dodges are 2-20 / X (X being from 22 to 25; dedede being the exception)

 

[-LzR-]

You can SDI drillrest if you trip hence it's a true combo. And if they don't trip, you still have other options like retreat, grab or utilt. Just be creative. You seem to think Jiggz plays like in melee where she spams WoP, well not in Brawl.

 

[YagamiLight]

really... her spot dodge is 3-16/25? wow.... really?
That would be the worst spot dodge in the game... considering I believed all other spot dodges are 2-20 / X (X being from 22 to 25; dedede being the exception)

Bowser also has a poor spot dodge (3-24 / 32) and DK has a bit of a slow one (2-23 / 30) but at least Bowser has a great OoS game to make up for it.

You can SDI drillrest if you trip hence it's a true combo. And if they don't trip, you still have other options like retreat, grab or utilt. Just be creative. You seem to think Jiggz plays like in melee where she spams WoP, well not in Brawl.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the trip rate of Jigglypuff's Down Aerial the base rate of 10%? This is what I would define as an UNRELIABLE option. I also doubt that if they SDI the Dair that grab and up tilt (which take longer to perform than rest, IIRC) have any chance of working. And I like how you list 'retreat' as an option for a character that took such a huge risk to actually enter the opponent's zone and all it has to show for it is some extra damage. And please tell me where I made any comparison to Melee Jigglypuff ANYWHERE. I am evaluating Jigglypuff by Brawl standards and, by Brawl standards, she is a horrible character. There's just not much else to say.

 

[-LzR-]

I think drill trips about half of the time. Maybe it's 10% per hit. And there are many hits in drill.

 

[Yikarur]

I think drill trips about half of the time. Maybe it's 10% per hit. And there are many hits in drill.

I lost to a jigglypuff in tournament because I got drill-trip-rested 2 times ;o; it seems I was very unlucky.

 

[-LzR-]

Drillrest isn't rare. It trips often. The drill itself isn't as easy to land. But you can follow their SDI until they trip.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Jigglypuff's weaknesses are quite a bit more extensive than "She's light and has a sub-par ground game."

- Her run speed is the worst in the game, below Ganondorf's.

I believe she makes up for running speed in air mobility. Besides, you do no really need running speed in brawl when you consider how many characters in brawl move about with jumps or walking.

Falco's every other movement is pretty much phantasm, SHL/SHDL, rolls, or very short walking/running sections. Marth does not need to run due to having a good walking speed and SHs also play a part in his movement as well.

But apart from this point, I cannot refute anything else lol
Jiggs is bad. Worse than Samus, CF, Link, Ganon or Zelda? I am not sure.

 

[-LzR-]

Jiggz is bad, but not nearly as bad as people say. She does pretty well on many stages, she is versatile. The best recover of all the crappy characters. Second best airspeed with her pretty fast aerials make her hard to grab. Her low crouch allows to dodge a lot of attacks and projectiles.
Can get situational low % kills with gimps and rest.
And she can stall pretty well too, not that good thought.
And she isn't buttraped by everyone above her in the tier list.

 

[YagamiLight]

I believe she makes up for running speed in air mobility. Besides, you do no really need running speed in brawl when you consider how many characters in brawl move about with jumps or walking.

Fair enough, but I was simply pointing out that it is quite a character flaw, even if options exist to circumvent it. After all, having access to a ground speed that allows you to actually get near the opponent allows you to make use of tactics such as dashing shield / spotdodge as well as letting you run behind the opponent to pivot grab them. Not essential tactics but useful nonetheless.

She does pretty well on many stages, she is versatile. That's a nice trait to have (if true) but consider that the most important game of the set is match one and on those stages she doesn't do as well.

The best recover of all the crappy characters. Sonic? Lucas? Not like it matters, anyway. Her recovery is good distancewise but it is prone to interception.

Second best airspeed with her pretty fast aerials make her hard to grab.
On the other hand, having to get so close to the enemy means they might as well just not bother grabbing you and simply hit you.

Her low crouch allows to dodge a lot of attacks and projectiles.
While I am skeptical as to how much crouching helps versus attacks, I can tell you for sure that I would much rather prefer to have a decent spotdodge than a low crouch, which Jigglypuff does not have. Plus you can just, you know, powershield projectiles.

Can get situational low % kills with gimps and rest.
So can everyone else? Replace Rest with (strong move) and add spikes (something Jigglypuff doesn't have).

And she can stall pretty well too, not that good thought. If you're not good at stalling, why bother?

And she isn't buttraped by everyone above her in the tier list.
While she has occasional good match-ups (Diddy and D3) other characters such as G&W **** her so badly it doesn't matter.

Responses in blue.

 

[-LzR-]

I know she is bad character. With her big flaws like unwinnable matchups.
Just because you get ***** by G&W and Wario doesn't mean she sucks, she wouldn't be tourney viable anyways. I guess she has a chance in lowtier tourneys, but that doesn't matter. Her crouch is valuable in against opponents like Falco, she can outcamp Falco like a few other chars if she has and advantage and I don't mean that stupid reflector ****.

 

[Justblaze647]

And she can stall pretty well too, not that good thought.

Stalling is banned. Or so they say.

Also, YagamiLight, I would very much appreciate it if you could marry me and have my babies. <3333333333

 

[Yikarur]

Exzessive Stalling is banned, he means something like runaway all day with stalling.

 

[Justblaze647]

It's near impossible to draw a line between the two.

When does stalling become excessive?

 

[Spelt]

Jigglypuff's weaknesses are quite a bit more extensive than "She's light and has a sub-par ground game."

Let's look at this objectively:
- She is the easiest character in the game to kill not only because she has the lowest launch resistance, but also because she has the slowest fall speed.
- Previously mentioned slow fall speed makes her susceptible to juggles.
- Her run speed is the worst in the game, below Ganondorf's.
- Her spotdodge is horrible (3-16 / 25), her airdodge is subpar (4-29 / 49) and her rolls are pretty much average.
- Her kill moves are either very unreliable (Drillrest, if SDIed, is going to get you killed at 20%) or are the same moves that she uses for spacing purposes (Fair).
- Her range is mediocre, but this is offset by her high air speed. On the ground, however, this renders most of her moves unviable.
- Her recovery, while very solid distance-wise, is also highly predictable and susceptible to interception.
- She lacks a projectile, meaning that she has to approach and, as a result, be constantly near the oppponent which (due to a lack of range and her being easy to kill) is very undesirable.


There's more I could say but the point I was trying to prove is that you can't say "She's light and has a sub-par ground game." and hope that it's going to fool anyone into thinking that Jigglypuff is some sort of amazing underrated character with made-up weaknesses.

Never said she was an amazing character.

Slow fall speed is more of a advantage than a weakness, since she gains much more from it and the only disadvantage is easy to juggle. which isn't as easy when you factor in her multiple jumps and pound.

bair and fair don't have mediocre range, lol.

She has more kill options than fair and rest, too.

 

[DanGR]

I believe she makes up for running speed in air mobility. Besides, you do no really need running speed in brawl when you consider how many characters in brawl move about with jumps or walking.

Falco's every other movement is pretty much phantasm, SHL/SHDL, rolls, or very short walking/running sections. Marth does not need to run due to having a good walking speed and SHs also play a part in his movement as well.

It's sort of silly to say that a weakness like movement speed on the ground is negated by a completely different type of movement that offers very different options with very different strengths and weaknesses. Why do you think her air speed makes up for an absolutely pathetic ground game?- it helps her out in the chasing department, where she'd otherwise falter more than she already does, but that's about it.

Even with her good aerial movement speed, she still can't grab very reliably, shield when she really needs it, or do anything other than poke with her jointed aerials and end up trading hits and/or getting out beaten with range. Trading hits really sucks when you die twice as early as everyone else, btw.

Having the slowest fall speed in the game is more of an advantage than a weakness

Fixed, and are you serious? <.<

 

[-LzR-]

No matter how fast she ran, her ground game would still suck.

 

[Flayl]

Running faster would make dash attack more useful and grabbing easier

 

[Z'zgashi]

Jigglypuff is bad but not as bad as ganny

/discussion

 

[T-block]

Jigglypuff is not weak to juggling. She has slow fall speed, but with a way to slow the fall in Pound, and good aerial mobility there's no way you're going to be keeping her up reliably.

 

[YagamiLight]

Also, YagamiLight, I would very much appreciate it if you could marry me and have my babies. <3333333333

Dinner conversations would revolve around how bad Jigglypuff is.

Hey, it's more than some actual couples have in common, haha.

Slow fall speed is more of a advantage than a weakness, since she gains much more from it and the only disadvantage is easy to juggle. which isn't as easy when you factor in her multiple jumps and pound.

bair and fair don't have mediocre range, lol.

She has more kill options than fair and rest, too.

1) Slow fall speed, when your recovery is already good distancewise, is a massive hindrance. Being able to get back to solid ground quickly is very useful, especially when your airdodge is subpar like Jigglypuff's.

2) I'm not really qualified to talk about range since I main Ike and to me everyone has no range, but Fair and Bair are at best outliers in Jigglypuff's moveset and, realistically, they aren't that long ranged and are jointed aerials.

3) Rest is her strongest, Fair is her most reliable. She has more (once again, I main Ike so if it doesn't kill before 110% it's not a kill option) kill moves, but they're a far cry from Rest and Fair which, as I pointed out, are flawed.

Jigglypuff is bad but not as bad as ganny

/discussion

Ah, these mystical "/discussion" tags seem to allow you to make opinionated judgment calls and pass them off as fact! Let me try!

Jigglypuff is a joke. /discussion (did I do it right?)

Jigglypuff is not weak to juggling. She has slow fall speed, but with a way to slow the fall in Pound, and good aerial mobility there's no way you're going to be keeping her up reliably.

Keep in mind that hitting Jigglypuff just once to keep her up in the air might as well be the same as scoring two hits on a heavyweight. Her low fall speed not only makes it easy to score a hit but it also means that every vertical hit you score means that much more.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Jigglypuff if the only character not named Ganondorf that I went back to try to learn for a second time and went "Man, I really overestimated this character last time I used him/her". And I had thought Jigglypuff was solidly in the bottom half of low tier the first time.

She is in fact fairly easy to keep juggling. I don't care if she has great horizontal speed: she's going to get hit a number of times due to her bad fall speed, unless she gets knocked away so far due to her low weight that she's out of range.

Her only realistic/reliable KOing option is Fair or maybe Pound. Drillrest is reliant on a trip, Dash Attack means going to her terrible ground game, Rollout is lol, her smashes mean going once again to her lol ground game, and also have meh range, and Pound is probably used more for spacing. Problem is, Fair is also her best spacing tool if she's facing her opponent in the air. You can try to use Bair/Nair/Pound as much as possible, but when it comes down to it, Fair most likely won't be perfectly fresh when you need it to be. You'll either need to land a few more hits, or hope it hasn't dropped off drastically. And even fresh, it doesn't KO soon enough for the amount of trouble you go through trying to land it. Anyone who knows about Jigglypuff knows that about 140% you'd better start watching for a Fair.

I also believe her ground game's terribleness isn't being stressed enough. I'm honestly not sure who's ground game is better: her's or Ganondorf's. Jigglypuff has crap range, and meh KOing power on the ground, and basically only her grab game with lol bad running speed and Dash Attack. Ganondorf at least has some range to his rather slow moves, flamechoke stuff if he manages to land one, and nice KOing power on the ground. It's close either way, but Ganondorf might edge Jigglypuff out ground game wise due to having at least an average spotdodge.

She's basically usable as a pocket "lol, weren't expecting THIS now, were you?" character against D3, and nothing else.

 

[Moozle]

Ganon's ground game is much better, with dash attack, jab, Ftilt, Usmash, and chain choke all being relatively good moves. Jiggs really only has dash attack...

 

[-LzR-]

Comparing Jigglypuff and Ganon in ground combat? Ganon is way better.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Jigglypuff is a character of extremes. Her very good traits give her a few solid pocket match-ups that other low tiers don't enjoy. She is the definition of "low tier kryptonite." She is still horrible, though overall.

 

[T-block]

I'd agree that Ganondorf has a better ground game.

She's basically usable as a pocket "lol, weren't expecting THIS now, were you?" character against D3, and nothing else.

I don't think you really understand this character. Jigglypuff is terrible against D3... you shoulda said Diddy, or maybe Falco.

Keep in mind that hitting Jigglypuff just once to keep her up in the air might as well be the same as scoring two hits on a heavyweight. Her low fall speed not only makes it easy to score a hit but it also means that every vertical hit you score means that much more.

Fair enough, but for most characters, landing a hit is going to have to be a solid read. Plus, what's keeping her from drifting off-stage and then approaching the stage from the side?

 

[-LzR-]

Falco ***** Jiggz.

 

[Brawlin]

The one thing about this tier list that confuses me is DK's position. How is he that high? He gets screwed by top tier characters, namely Dedede. What does he really have going for him? But if tier lists are primarily based on tourney results, that might be why. Although, I don't know how well DK players have been doing in tournaments.

 

[smashkng]

Ganon is definitely better than Jiggs on the ground. The only thing Jiggs on the ground has that is better than Ganon's is the grab. Ganon however has great range in Dtilt, DA, Wizard Kick and Gerudo. Gerudo allows to grab shield campers (though people with a fast reaction can probably stop dodge that) while Wizard Kick punishes stop dodges and landing air dodges and keeps people aware so they don't stay on the ground without doing anything.

 

[-LzR-]

Jiggz uses her air game to substitute her air game. And anyways, Ganon has better air game than Snake. So it's not that big of a weakness.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jiggz uses her air game to substitute her air game.

What?

-What?-

 

[Johnny Citrus]

Lol Snake has a better air game than ganon. His biar, nair, and his ability to hold a grenade while falling make it so

 

[smashkng]

Ganon has better aerials than Snake, but I don't think they're good at preventing juggling.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, I mean't aerials. Aerial game isn't based on your power to fight juggles, but overall Snake has slow and unreliable aerials.
While Ganon has strong aerials that autocancel and string together very well and his uair is actually very good.

 

[lilseph]

IIRC MK vs jiggly is 60-40 for MK. Thats not to bad for how bad of a character jiggly is.

 

[Ripple]

The one thing about this tier list that confuses me is DK's position. How is he that high? He gets screwed by top tier characters, namely Dedede. What does he really have going for him? But if tier lists are primarily based on tourney results, that might be why. Although, I don't know how well DK players have been doing in tournaments.

DK has 1 terrible match up and 1 "bad" match up with all the top tiers.

D3 and MK respectively. DK goes even with or slightly loses to everyone else in high tier and above.

DK actually has some of the least representation in the game, results wise.