The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Luxor]

True DI won't work on bananas, but SDI does. Not that I've ever seen a banana SDI'ed.

 

[Spelt]

I thought they weren't SDIable either.

 

[-LzR-]

I think the point is that the footstool animation makes it unable to SDI.

 

[theunabletable]

^SDI is done during hitlag frames. So you can't really footstool someone to prevent SDI, I don't think...

I'm pretty sure that you can SDI the banana hit (unless it doesn't have hitlag or something, but I bet it does EDIT: Was wrong, no hitlag on getting hit by a banana while grounded...), but not normally DI the trip.

 

[-LzR-]

Is there even hitlag during I trip? Also the footstool is the key, like in drillrest for Jigglypuff, the trip makes it non SDIable to make it a true combo.

 

[Spelt]

I guess you can SDI a banana then...


What does footstooling have to do with jigglypuff's dair?
and you can still DI all of the hits before it trips and make it a not true combo

 

[theunabletable]

Actually I just tested it. There's no hitlag if you get hit by a banana while on the ground, so you can't SDI it (either there's no hitlag, or the SDI modifier thingie is set to zero for banana trips).

So it doesn't seem to be SDIable. Although I'm pretty sure that the footstool is to put them in hitstun frames or something so that they can't roll out of the way.

 

[-LzR-]

That is the point, the footstool animation has weird properties. Footstool might have a lot more potential than that =/

 

[Spelt]

Hey look, i'm actually right about something. :3

I guess it happens every once in awhile.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's not worth it's own topic obviously, so I'll throw this up here so the information can slowly trickle to the other character boards. And because I like bragging about my character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ZbDNAh6uU&feature=channel

Read the description. That is the % range where Ike can Bthrow -> Dash Attack your character in a true combo. Jab -> Grab -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack is too good.

 

[Laem]

Can you really not just di away like its melee

 

[san.]

I can guarantee the percents ~65%-80% for MK for bthrow-->dash attack with a good amount of leeway for the dash attack.

Above ~80% for MK and around high 80s for most of the cast, they can DI up and air dodge (this can be predicted though). Cannot say for throwing offstage, which may work better.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nope. It's a true combo at those %s. Ike's huge dash attack range probably helps it out. http://i34.tinypic.com/2ll0ygi.gif

EDIT: San, the description only says MK works up to 79%. Stop breaking Brawl. I'm going to assume that it's at 80% that MK can DI up and AD in time.

 

[-LzR-]

You could DI up in melee too and they still called it a true combo. Why isn't that true in Brawl if you can SDI 5 times up to avoid it?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

SDI up? There isn't much to SDI. No multi hitting move. You have the throw, which Ike has a nice frame advantage from thanks to it's IASA frames or w/e those things are called (Hence why he has a CG on Bowser with it, and several other characters he's off by like 2 frames of having a CG on), and then you get hit with the giant sword.

The thing is Ike is too quick out of his Bthrow, and Dash Attack is too large

 

[YagamiLight]

I like how people don't realize that you can't DI or SDI Ike's BThrow (or many non-tumble throws) up until it actually sends you into tumble (which is the percent listed in the video).

EDIT: I should point out that some of the characters can jump out at all times, the second percent listed is only when they go into a DIable tumble animation. Still, that list took some dedication on the maker's part, so props to him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's what the tumbling comment in the Ike board was about. I wasn't sure at all, lol.

I should eat before trying to think...

 

[-LzR-]

Actually, I wasn't referring to Ike's throws. I was just referring to it overall.
Let's say this simple situation, you get uptilted by Fox. Fox can follow up with another one if the % allow it to happen. It's a true combo. But if the other player does DI up and away, the uptilt doesn't work anymore, but instead, you can uair him. That is a true combo in that situation. But the uair isn't fast enough so he can airdodge it before it hits. You will read this airdodge and hit him throught it and that is the true combo for that situation.
Let's use an example from melee. Space animal slayer, uthrow to rest against spacies is a true combo. It can escaped via DI, but you can simply read that and hit anyways. If you can do that in Brawl then why it suddenly isn't a true combo?

Just also pointing out that there aren't really many TRUE TRUE combos like the standards you have for Brawl since many can be escaped via PERFECT SDI.

 

[Death Arcana]

what % does this work at?
ike's back throw

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Doesn't SDI exist in melee, too? And in 64 for that matter? If so (i'm honestly not sure) would you say there weren't true combos in those games?

 

[-LzR-]

They existed, but for some reason everyone's assumption of a true combo is completely inescapable like Great Aether or something like that. That **** doesn't exist in smash. If it can reliably combo into something in a certain situation, it's a true combo. We can't assume someone is so fast to mash out that he can mash out of Dedede's chaingrab for instance, since it's impossible.

 

[Justblaze647]

That **** doesn't exist in smash Brawl.

fix'd for accuracy

 

[Yikarur]

"smash" was right.

 

[-LzR-]

Well Justblaze, give me an example of a true combo in melee.

 

[Yikarur]

well.. I think throw combos in Melee are legit.

 

[-LzR-]

Just like in Brawl.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Doesn't SDI exist in melee, too? And in 64 for that matter? If so (i'm honestly not sure) would you say there weren't true combos in those games?

Not only do they exist, but there are a number of legit follow-ups regardless of where you sdi, for a lot of things, so sdi becomes a reading game in and of itself.


There are however, still a number of true combos.


Furthermore, there are a number of situations where a follow-up is guaranteed regardless of the decision an opponent makes, but which follow-up varies based on DI/SDI.



Overall, the real difference is between melee and brawl is once the initial attack is gotten in, Melee advances the attacker significantly more which balances the powerful defensive game whereas when it's much easier to reset to neutral in brawl, there's a lot less of an incentive to approach.

 

[theunabletable]

Doesn't SDI exist in melee, too? And in 64 for that matter? If so (i'm honestly not sure) would you say there weren't true combos in those games?

I'm pretty sure you can SDI in N64, and you definitely can in Melee, but it doesn't make THAT much of a difference, due to the hitlag being so much lower in Melee meaning you can't SDI nearly as far.

Although it's notable with things like Fox's up throw up air combo on Jiggs. You can SDI the first hit of uair so that you don't get hit by the second.

 

[Moozle]

I think the point is that while things like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nJT_NpGP4&feature=related) are technically possible, there is no way a human could do it on command, so there are real combos that can't be broken out of. Like Peach's Uair string

 

[Justblaze647]

Well Justblaze, give me an example of a true combo in melee.

Haha I was talking about 64 o_O

Also, "give me an example of a true combo, please"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My point was just that "true combo" traditionally has meant something that can't be escaped by air dodging. SDI escapes are implied.

 

[-LzR-]

To me a true combo is something that can't be reliably escaped on reaction. Just think of it, who can SDI about 5 times and DI out of the way in 5 frames just to avoid another uair?
And in Brawl, I use the term combo for the thing that you are in the control of the match and get hits.
That is because Brawl is a lowhitstun game ofc.
Let's think of DK, tornado -> tornado is a true combo.
He can't airdodge, none of his aerials work and he can't charge punches in time.

 

[ShadowLink84]

To me a true combo is something that can't be reliably escaped on reaction. Just think of it, who can SDI about 5 times and DI out of the way in 5 frames just to avoid another uair?
And in Brawl, I use the term combo for the thing that you are in the control of the match and get hits.
That is because Brawl is a lowhitstun game ofc.
Let's think of DK, tornado -> tornado is a true combo.
He can't airdodge, none of his aerials work and he can't charge punches in time.

I like how smashers **** definitions over time.
Epic.

Sonic's 30% combo=cannot be escaped
Tornado~>tornado=/=combo

 

[Spelt]

I like how smashers **** definitions over time.
Epic.

No, it's just brawlers.
The lack of hitstun has killed our ability to process anything considered sane.
Probably because nothing in brawl is ever safe, so we're stuck in a constant state of paranoia.

 

[-LzR-]

Why is tornado -> tornado not a combo if you can't do anything to avoid the second nado?
Because some stupid game mechanic knows as hitstun wears off? >_>

 

[Spelt]

Yes.
A combo is multiple moves hitting the opponent consecutively, while in hitstun.

What you defined is a string.

 

[-LzR-]

Why do you always have to do stuff with hitstun? What does it matter actually? If you can't dodge the second nado, it's a combo. I think the definition of combo and true combo is different. A combo isn't a true combo. But whatever they are just useless terms that make no difference.

 

[Spelt]

The lack of hitstun has killed our ability to process anything considered sane.

Why do you always have to do stuff with hitstun? What does it matter actually? If you can't dodge the second nado, it's a combo. I think the definition of combo and true combo is different. A combo isn't a true combo. But whatever they are just useless terms that make no difference.

My point exactly.

 

[Purple]

No, it's just brawlers.
The lack of hitstun has killed our ability to process anything considered sane.
Probably because nothing in brawl is ever safe, so we're stuck in a constant state of paranoia.

Stuff in brawl is safe; but i'm probably getting trolled.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Stuff in brawl is safe; but i'm probably getting trolled.

Your right though.