The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Nefarious B]

I've heard Lucarios say before that Snake is harder than MK for them, and I can kind of see why. You don't have to worry about getting gimped, but Snake just flat out kills Lucario so quickly off of one mistake that aura wouldn't be as much of a factor. Lucario has a much harder time coming back from a stock defecit than any other character and, especially then, it seems like Snakes weight would start to really be an issue.

 

[Shaya]

Marth wil kill MK from a grab near the ledge at around 50% (including the percent of tipper dair).

Marth due to his general, "I will **** you for dair camping me, and if I read you going for a tornado straight after a dair, I'll beat that too" gets grabs on MK more often than a lot of characters.

mmm about marth fair slicing AS at 135%
recently neo did some testing, fair would cut as up until like 105%, fsmash (lol) would do so up till like 115-120%...
mmm maybe I'm off with my numbers...

 

[Purple]

You have killer debate skills

It's impossible to have a real argument in this thread so I'm just going to stop trying. I'm 100% fine with being wrong, even totally 1000% wrong, or so wrong it's funny. That's OK with me, because being corrected and having a conversation is how you learn. I'm not OK with personal attacks or ad hominem. Who I am doesn't matter, only what I'm saying matters, and when I attacked or when my "credibility" is called into question, I feel forced to try to defend against that, even though such arguments are ridiculous and logically fallacious. That colloquialism about "going down to your level" is pretty true, I think.

I don't know everything about Brawl. There is a ton of stuff I know. I am no doubt misinformed on many counts. However, so are many of you. I've read your posts in match-up discussions and the like and most of you have NO idea what you're talking about. And that's fine, too because we're here to learn and discuss.

I am not interested in being treated so cruelly when I have done nothing to prompt such a response. If you want to correct me, do so, and by all means do so respectfully.

I chose not to reply to your question because it doesn't matter and you don't matter and who disagrees with me matters even less. It isn't about "who," it's about "what" and when you understand that I'll start to care about what you say. Until then, I don't. If you aren't interested in theorycraft with a bunch of "randoms" ksizzle I suggest you find another thread because people you don't know are going to post here, and many of them do a better job if it than you.

Anyway, **** you all basically.

I really got to respond to this.

Stop talking on everything.

It sounds mean when i separate it from the rest of my messages, but seriously that's what separates you from a lot of members of the smash community who are part of the back room. You -don't- shut up. If you even THINK you might be misinformed, don't talk. Do you main the character? Have you ever mained the character? Do you know how to play the character in an in-depth fashion? No to all of that? Don't talk. It's gotten to the point where I can't take ANYTHING you say seriously because you continuously talk about things and characters that you truthfully -don't- understand. If we're talking about ZSS fine, you know the character, you know the scene, you know things that ZSS can do, you can discuss THAT; we're talking about other characters you don't play? Just keep your mouth shut, sometimes that's best and you'll be more respected that way.

 

[Spelt]

i don't believe marth vs mk is 65:35.
it's much easier for marth to get in on mk than it is for many other characters, and when he does get in he can do some pretty **** stuff.

 

[D%ky]

i still agree with this tier list

 

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuff is better than Samus, prove me wrong will you.

 

[Justblaze647]

Zair. Jiggz wishes she had such a good spacing tool

 

[-LzR-]

A single move that only excels in range isn't going to make her better. Jiggz has much easier time doing almost everything Samus can do.

 

[Meru.]

I really got to respond to this.

Stop talking on everything.

It sounds mean when i separate it from the rest of my messages, but seriously that's what separates you from a lot of members of the smash community who are part of the back room. You -don't- shut up. If you even THINK you might be misinformed, don't talk. Do you main the character? Have you ever mained the character? Do you know how to play the character in an in-depth fashion? No to all of that? Don't talk. It's gotten to the point where I can't take ANYTHING you say seriously because you continuously talk about things and characters that you truthfully -don't- understand. If we're talking about ZSS fine, you know the character, you know the scene, you know things that ZSS can do, you can discuss THAT; we're talking about other characters you don't play? Just keep your mouth shut, sometimes that's best and you'll be more respected that way.

He has the right to say whatever he wants about whatever subject, whenever he wants it. He admits that he might be wrong and that he doesnt mind if someone corrects him about that. So whats the problem?

 

[Justblaze647]

Jiggz has much easier time doing almost everything Samus can do.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Purple]

He has the right to say whatever he wants about whatever subject, whenever he wants it. He admits that he might be wrong and that he doesnt mind if someone corrects him about that. So whats the problem?

I get to say whatever I want about negros and asianswhenever I feel like it even if it's wrong, just teach me the right way and we'll be fine; that's how discussion works after all.

The problem is being uneducated on a subject, knowing it, and continuing to discuss;, he's only making the conversation worse by doing this.

All I'm saying is that if he isn't educated strongly in a certain subject, just back away from it; it's not that hard. I'm really -not- trying to come off as an ******* by saying it, it's just going to give him more -decent- conversation and less enemies in this thread if he backs out when he doesn't know what he's talking about strongly.

 

[iRJi]

Marth wil kill MK from a grab near the ledge at around 50% (including the percent of tipper dair).

Marth due to his general, "I will **** you for dair camping me, and if I read you going for a tornado straight after a dair, I'll beat that too" gets grabs on MK more often than a lot of characters.

mmm about marth fair slicing AS at 135%
recently neo did some testing, fair would cut as up until like 105%, fsmash (lol) would do so up till like 115-120%...
mmm maybe I'm off with my numbers...

No he could be right. I did it off the top of my head when I stated that. The real point is that it's not until a percent that makes it almost irrelevant.

 

[Browny]

And of course a mis-spacing of the fair by only a few pixels ends up in marth around 20% and possibly getting KO'd from it so I dont think it would be something they would regularly challenge with it anyway :/

 

[Shaya]

Honestly i've never tried beyond like 50%... thought i'd get screwed.
Not like I couldn't react to it though.

 

[Tomato]

After looking at the tier list and seeing some recent tourney results, I'm thinking Toon Link is on the way up to the lower-end of the B Tier I'd say. I was honestly surprised when I looked and saw that he wasn't there already. Why is he where he is? He's got a lot of different projectiles and they do decent damage. He can't set up bombs as well as Snake does with grenades, but it's still a nifty trick. He's also got some pretty quick attacks & definitely keeps up with characters who are above him.

And then you have Pit, who is probably amongst the most underused higher tiered characters in tournaments. I remember seeing a female Pit player ranked 10th on some PR somewhere, but other than that I've failed to see any Pits who have won/done well at anything, whilst I see Toon Link doing well pretty consistently.

I'm not hating on the Tier List or anything - I honestly think it's accurate for the most part, but I was just curious as to why Toon Link's placement is where he is, as well as Pit's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tier List is based on the tournament performance of a character as well as their perceived abilities. If Pit's rated as highly as he is, why are so few people using him, and why are those that do use him fail to perform well?

Just trying to stimulate some sort of discussion about this.

 

[-LzR-]

Care to elaborate?

Jiggz kill way earlier than Samus (duh)
She can rack up damage better with move string with proper reads.
Her recovery is so much better.
She can plank better than Samus which is all Samus can do.
She can actually grab people and so on.
Jiggz might lack zair and a spike, but got much more in everything except range.

 

[Nitrix]

Jiggs seems better than samus.....But then I remember what happens when her shield breaks

After looking at the tier list and seeing some recent tourney results, I'm thinking Toon Link is on the way up to the lower-end of the B Tier I'd say. I was honestly surprised when I looked and saw that he wasn't there already. Why is he where he is? He's got a lot of different projectiles and they do decent damage. He can't set up bombs as well as Snake does with grenades, but it's still a nifty trick. He's also got some pretty quick attacks & definitely keeps up with characters who are above him.

And then you have Pit, who is probably amongst the most underused higher tiered characters in tournaments. I remember seeing a female Pit player ranked 10th on some PR somewhere, but other than that I've failed to see any Pits who have won/done well at anything, whilst I see Toon Link doing well pretty consistently.

I'm not hating on the Tier List or anything - I honestly think it's accurate for the most part, but I was just curious as to why Toon Link's placement is where he is, as well as Pit's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tier List is based on the tournament performance of a character as well as their perceived abilities. If Pit's rated as highly as he is, why are so few people using him, and why are those that do use him fail to perform well?

Just trying to stimulate some sort of discussion about this.

Pit got his current placement mostly due to people thinking he has potential. There are a few Pit's in Japan (Masashi, Earth) that actually do well. In terms of recent placings, the only Pit's succeeding moderately in american tourney's are KiraFlax and Koolaid. Earth from Japan attended Apex and got 17th place which is pretty freaking awesome too.

Despite their individual placings, Pit doesn't deserve his current spot by any means. Potential isn't enough to warrant his placement and there isn't enough tourny placings to justify it either. With that being said though, Pit hasn't been developed nearly as much as other characters and he has a very small player base, so it isn't an understatement to say there is still growth ahead for him. That growth simply hasn't been shown yet.

In terms of Toon Link, yea he seems pretty good. Its just that alot of characters just exceed him in certain areas. I think he deserves B-Tier.

 

[ksizl4life]

I really got to respond to this.

Stop talking on everything.

It sounds mean when i separate it from the rest of my messages, but seriously that's what separates you from a lot of members of the smash community who are part of the back room. You -don't- shut up. If you even THINK you might be misinformed, don't talk. Do you main the character? Have you ever mained the character? Do you know how to play the character in an in-depth fashion? No to all of that? Don't talk. It's gotten to the point where I can't take ANYTHING you say seriously because you continuously talk about things and characters that you truthfully -don't- understand. If we're talking about ZSS fine, you know the character, you know the scene, you know things that ZSS can do, you can discuss THAT; we're talking about other characters you don't play? Just keep your mouth shut, sometimes that's best and you'll be more respected that way.

this is mah nigga right here

 

[Nefarious B]

So what do people think about Olimar moving up? He seems like he fits in nicely with Pika and DDD but is he good enough to pass them?

 

[Justblaze647]

Jiggz kill way earlier than Samus (duh)

Haha no. Jiggz has like one kill move:fair. Smashes are ineffective. Rollout is blatantly broadcast as "HEY jump over meeeeee." Rest is... no. I guess u tilt might kill at like 185 on a mid weight or something but yeah jiggz has almost no ko potential. Her 'early kills' would come from gimps rather than anything else.

Samus has charge shot, d tilt, f smash, bair, dair (gimping), and zair which can also be used for gimping. the difference is this: more options to use leads to more opportunities for mix ups and all around less stress when it comes to trying to land the kill move.

She can rack up damage better with move string with proper reads.

Could you provide an example of one of these damage racking strings. Until you do, I'll just post one that I think trumps anything jiggz can do:

Samus can uair from the ledge to u tilt to screw attack. I'm not sure, but I would guess that does around 35-40 damage.

Her recovery is so much better.

Recovery is a word that encompasses a lot of actions, all about getting back to the stage. I don't know exactly how many jumps Jiggz has, but thats all she gets. Unless you also want to include recovering from high, in which I guess rollout can be another (risky) option. Oh, pound is good. Imo, That's jiggz best move.

Missiles and zair (the attack), are both tremendously helpful when trying to recover against an edge guarding opponent. Add to that an up b with a hitbox and a decently long tether, and I say Samus wins in this category as well.

She can plank better than Samus which is all Samus can do.

Wait. All Samus can do is plank? Obviously you know nothing about this character. I'm not going to try and dissuade you on this.

She can actually grab people and so on.

Short hop missile to running grab frame trap says hello

Jiggz might lack range and priority, but got much less in everything including viability.

Fix'd

 

[Spelt]

jiggs can kill with dash attack, fsmash (which is about as reliable as charge shot or samus dtilt), fair, bair (if close to the ledge/off the stage), rest (lol).

saying fair is her only kill move is extremely ignorant.



oh and that "String" only works at low percent. jigglypuff has uair/bair strings that work at all percents depending on staleness.

 

[stingers]

fair is easier to land and even stronger then every move you listed for samus...so lol

 

[Spelt]

^ oh and then there's that.

 

[Justblaze647]

jiggs can kill with dash attack, fsmash (which is about as reliable as charge shot or samus dtilt), fair, bair (if close to the ledge/off the stage), rest (lol).

saying fair is her only kill move is extremely ignorant.



oh and that "String" only works at low percent. jigglypuff has uair/bair strings that work at all percents depending on staleness.

A move that can kill=/=A reliable KO move. Sure dash attack, fsmash, etc can kill, under the right circumstances. So can falcon punch. But how many times do you expect to reliably land these 'KO' moves during a match, a set even? Fsmash/DA might KO one stock out of like a 5 game set. That's not consistent enough to be relied upon as a kill move.

Yes, I realize that me saying fair is the on kill move Jiggz has sounds extremely ignorant and biased. So I take that back. But honestly her kill moves don't compare in number or uses to Samus Aran.

I've seen that uair>utilt>up b string used more than once in a match. Jiggz up air strings are very situational, and also DI/percent dependent as well. I've never seen anyone (intelligent) get caught in that string for more than like two hits.

Edit:

fair is easier to land and even stronger then every move you listed for samus...so lol

This is exactly how moves get stale, so fair actually wont kill until like 160 offstage

 

[Spelt]

A move that can kill=/=A reliable KO move. Sure dash attack, fsmash, etc can kill, under the right circumstances. So can falcon punch. But how many times do you expect to reliably land these 'KO' moves during a match, a set even? Fsmash/DA might KO one stock out of like a 5 game set. That's not consistent enough to be relied upon as a kill move.

did you read my last post...?
i said fsmash is just as reliable as charge shot and dtilt. so if you can list those as samus' options why can't i list it as an option for jigglypuff?
dair true combos into rest if it trips, which happens pretty often.
dash attack is very reliable, especially since all anyone expects jiggs to do on the ground is grab.
chu dat lands kirby's fsmash ALL the time, why can't jiggs?

Yes, I realize that me saying fair is the on kill move Jiggz has sounds extremely ignorant and biased. So I take that back. But honestly her kill moves don't compare in number or uses to Samus Aran.

Yes, they do. charge shot, fsmash and dtilt are her only "reliable" kill moves outside of gimps.

I've seen that uair>utilt>up b string used more than once in a match. Jiggz up air strings are very situational, and also DI/percent dependent as well. I've never seen anyone (intelligent) get caught in that string for more than like two hits.

saying you can DI something in brawl is like saying that you have a sandwich you can eat. Yes, everyone knows DI exists and it's useful. MK's uair can be SDI'd half way across FD, does that mean uair strings are any less useful? no.

 

[Justblaze647]

did you read my last post...?
i said fsmash is just as reliable as charge shot and dtilt. so if you can list those as samus' options why can't i list it as an option for jigglypuff?
dair true combos into rest if it trips, which happens pretty often.
dash attack is very reliable, especially since all anyone expects jiggs to do on the ground is grab.
chu dat lands kirby's fsmash ALL the time, why can't jiggs?

No. You think that fsmash is as reliable. Just because you say it, doesn't automatically make it true. As for DA: what do you do to avoid a grab (assuming thats what your expecting)? Yay, spot dodge. Would you look at that? It works just as well against DA.

I'd like to see a vid of the underlined portion, in a serious friendly, MM, or tourney match, or it never happened. Practice and/or demonstration DONT COUNT FOR ANYTHING.

Also, don't compare kirby's fsmash to Jiggs'. Let alone the fact that Chu is... Chu Dat.

Yes, they do. charge shot, fsmash and dtilt are her only "reliable" kill moves outside of gimps.

So how would you set up for a fsmash kill with Jiggz. Just gimme an example.

saying you can DI something in brawl is like saying that you have a sandwich you can eat. Yes, everyone knows DI exists and it's useful. MK's uair can be SDI'd half way across FD, does that mean uair strings are any less useful? no

.

A string of attacks, thought to be reliable, that can be SDI'd out of, becomes less useful than it was originally. So my answer to your qustion is yes.

 

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuff is a low tier. Low tiers don't have reliable set ups, which is just one of the reasons they suck. So don't try to find anything reliable.
Also, if you save your fair which smart jigglypuff players do, it can kill at about 120% ONSTAGE.

Also there is rest, in theory, it's a great move, but because we are human beings, we make mistakes and miss. That is what we got drill rest for. A guaranteed kill move at around 60% is not bad killability. Especially compared to Samus's killmoves.

 

[Justblaze647]

A guaranteed kill move at around 60% is not bad killability.

Vid plox or it never happened.

 

[Purple]

So what do people think about Olimar moving up? He seems like he fits in nicely with Pika and DDD but is he good enough to pass them?

He can fight against Metaknight when played correctly in contrast to D3. He also has a good MU on snake and other high tiers that are common in tournament; I don't see why he can't surpass D3

 

[Kofu]

Jigglypuff is almost certainly better than Samus, though; I'd go so far as to say that she has the potential to be one of the highest in bottom tier.

Her aerial mobility is excellent, and is quite capable of weaving in and out of the opponent's space. She has five aerial jumps, each of which give her a reasonable vertical ascension, which makes her recovery quite respectable and variable, a weakness to meteors notwithstanding (her ridiculous ledge grab range helps, too). She has an exceptionally and deceptively good grab range, and though her throws aren't very good at killing, they all do 10% fresh, which makes them excellent damage racking moves. The ability to inflict more damage by reading the foe's DI makes them even better.

Her range is quite mediocre, and her ground game is quite bad aside from her Dash Attack and Grab. You'd be surprised how quickly she can build up damage, though, especially with good reads.

Basically, I view Jigglypuff as a worse version of Wario, Kirby, and to a lesser extent Meta Knight. Since many of her attributes are simply watered-down versions of these high-tier characters, I see now reason as to why she couldn't be higher.

Also: Rest is a rather mediocre kill move, especially against heavyweights, who could certainly survive a fresh Rest around 100% with proper DI.

 

[Justblaze647]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Jigglypuff is bad

 

[GreenFox]

D3 is overrated for making some match ups against bad characters almost impossible. Although he suffers against a lot of high tier characters like Meta knight, Diddy kong, Olimar, Pikachu and ZSS his metagame has literatley been dead for 2 year's and he just has been going off his sold fundamentals. I expect him to drop and people like ZSS and Olimar to rise

 

[-LzR-]

Just because no one plays Jiggz doesn't make her worse than samus. And yes she sucks, but the point was about Jigglypuff vs Samus. Samus has an incredible weakness, inability to kill. Jigglypuff also shares this problem, but the CAN kill with rest or good reads, unlike Samus who has to wait for 200% before the kill against chars who don't have negative weight.

 

[Kofu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Jigglypuff is bad

So does Bowser, apparently.

Though that list does generally show which characters are better to use than others, it's not an end all, since not all characters are used with the same frequency, and certainly not at the same skill levels.

 

[Meru.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Jigglypuff is bad

Samus is not much higher on that list. In the end Ganondorf is higher than both of them.

 

[Nitrix]

To me Jiggs does better against high tiers. She doesn't get totally massacred in matchups to the same extent as poor Samus. Samus is just so big and slow

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Jigglypuff is the best out of the low tier characters.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, but people don't know much about Jiggz, well, she is not very popular. She is also outclassed by many high tiers who do the same job better. Wario is the worst, he can recover as well as Jiggz, he has more range, priority, power, mobility and his downB is much stronger and it's safe to use.

 

[Delta-cod]

Jigglypuff is the best out of the low tier characters.

I think you meant Yoshi.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think he meant Ike!