The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Laem]

zelda is HORRIBLE. switching to her in the middle of a match for a kill is basically giving up your stock.

just spam running upsmash itll work eventually
SUCCESS!!

 

[Purple]

I don't think any character with a hard counter can be second, especially if their hard counter is viable. Falco is pretty good though.

E.Honda is 2nd in the SSF4 tier list and has a hard counter; Chun-Li.

Why am I saying that? Well, granted there's a hard counter, how many use that character and how good they are also relates to tier list placings. Also, as much as you guys swear up and down that Snake has hard counters, he really doesn't, they are disadvantageous yes, but can be won.

However I do think that Falco is second/third best, followed by diddy then snake.

 

[Orion*]

E.Honda is 2nd in the SSF4 tier list and has a hard counter; Chun-Li.

Why am I saying that? Well, granted there's a hard counter, how many use that character and how good they are also relates to tier list placings. Also, as much as you guys swear up and down that Snake has hard counters, he really doesn't, they are disadvantageous yes, but can be won.

However I do think that Falco is second/third best, followed by diddy then snake.

ehhhh.

diddy/falco are about tied in my book. diddy has some annoying mus, but nothing as troublesome as pika/ics/shiek/infinitegayshiz. falco still wins most of those matchups, or goes even but he will get gayed more often than diddy kong will.

only character i really see diddys getting troubled with is TL lol

 

[Espy Rose]

Iunno, Orion.
I always thought Peach gave Diddy issues as well.

 

[Justblaze647]

Snake at anything less than 3rd best is blasphemy

 

[Nidtendofreak]

its pretty obviously mk -> falco -> snake -> diddy and I've been saying that forever...

Incorrect.

As long as MK exists and isn't banned, Snake must be second best. I don't buy the "Falco handles MK better than Snake" at all, not as long as there is no LGL. And if you look at the current, official rules that the tier list is based on: there is no LGL. Snake has a better chance at handling planking than Falco, as he can at least throw stuff off stage and hope for a lucky explosive at the same time as MK is slightly slow on the regrab, while Falco can't do anything. And the BBR has basically stated in a roundabout way that they won't apply a LGL to just MK, and would ban MK before applying a universal LGL.

Falco doesn't do bad against MK to be sure, he just doesn't do as well though. Neither of them can do much against MK in the air, both of their recoveries are fairly easy for MK to gimp. Falco has longer range projectile and early stock CG, Snake has more KOing power, is heavier and thus takes longer to get offstage, and has his grenades. Falco can capitalize on MK's mistakes with more damage, Snake can potentially KO MK for a mistake.

If there is any character out there who has a chance of going truly neutral overall with MK, no matter the stage selection at the tournament, while keeping the recommended ruleset in mind, it's Snake. Falco has no chance of being truly neutral due to no LGL. Diddy Kong's bananas can be used against him easier than Snake's grenades can be used against Snake, and also has a similar KOing issue that Falco has.

 

[Nitrix]

ehhhh.

diddy/falco are about tied in my book. diddy has some annoying mus, but nothing as troublesome as pika/ics/shiek/infinitegayshiz. falco still wins most of those matchups, or goes even but he will get gayed more often than diddy kong will.

only character i really see diddys getting troubled with is TL lol

Toon Link isn't an issue with Diddy. The 2 main anti-Diddy characters are Peach and Luigi, both are manageable though.

 

[Purple]

Iunno, Orion.
I always thought Peach gave Diddy issues as well.

Peaches and Diddys alike swear up and down she does.

lol.

at first, i thought this was like, lol troll, but looking back at it this makes a lot of sense. MK is a pretty **** big part of the brawl metagame, having an advantage/ even mu against him brings pretty heavy success.

 

[Ussi]

Incorrect.

As long as MK exists and isn't banned, Snake must be second best. I don't buy the "Falco handles MK better than Snake" at all, not as long as there is no LGL. And if you look at the current, official rules that the tier list is based on: there is no LGL. Snake has a better chance at handling planking than Falco, as he can at least throw stuff off stage and hope for a lucky explosive at the same time as MK is slightly slow on the regrab, while Falco can't do anything. And the BBR has basically stated in a roundabout way that they won't apply a LGL to just MK, and would ban MK before applying a universal LGL.

Falco doesn't do bad against MK to be sure, he just doesn't do as well though. Neither of them can do much against MK in the air, both of their recoveries are fairly easy for MK to gimp. Falco has longer range projectile and early stock CG, Snake has more KOing power, is heavier and thus takes longer to get offstage, and has his grenades. Falco can capitalize on MK's mistakes with more damage, Snake can potentially KO MK for a mistake.

If there is any character out there who has a chance of going truly neutral overall with MK, no matter the stage selection at the tournament, while keeping the recommended ruleset in mind, it's Snake. Falco has no chance of being truly neutral due to no LGL. Diddy Kong's bananas can be used against him easier than Snake's grenades can be used against Snake, and also has a similar KOing issue that Falco has.

You didn't watch M2K vs Ally at Apex 2010 did you? it was a sad sight really :\

 

[Orion*]

i think peach and weegee both lose that shiz.

and falco has more tools to fight mk than snake does, its just that snake capitalizes on technical errors more than falco can. (ie dair if mk is dumb enough to not DI)

at high level play, ie. m2k vs ally. jason makes VERY few technical errors ever so elliot will rarely get that punish.

 

[ShadowLink84]

E.Honda is 2nd in the SSF4 tier list and has a hard counter; Chun-Li.

Why am I saying that? Well, granted there's a hard counter, how many use that character and how good they are also relates to tier list placings. Also, as much as you guys swear up and down that Snake has hard counters, he really doesn't, they are disadvantageous yes, but can be won.

However I do think that Falco is second/third best, followed by diddy then snake.

A+
Rufus, Abel, Sagat, Guile
A

Dhalsim, M. Bison (Dictator), Ryu, Ken, Balrog (Boxer), Chun-Li, Ibuki, E. Honda, Akuma
B+

Dee Jay, T. Hawk, C. Viper, Zangief, Dudley, Seth, Rose
B

El Fuerte, Adon, Vega (Claw), Blanka, Cammy, Cody, Juri, Gouken
C+

Hakan, Guy, Fei Long, Gen, Makoto, Sakura
C

Dan


Thats the global version.

The arcadia version is the one you refer which IMO, I think isn't as acurate.
if you get hard countered, your viability is severly hindered.

 

[Nefarious B]

In a world where no LGL exists, Falco is hard countered by MK, not even with just perfect planking. It's as simple as that, but I think the BBR has found some middle ground in acknowledging that TOs will use LGL anyways, putting Falco at 4th instead of dropping him much lower. He should never be higher than that until the BR includes LGL for MK in their ruleset

 

[Orion*]

your argument sais pretty much that, snake has a easier time punishing mk IF HE MESSES UP rather than falco. assuming either character loses the lead in your scenario, because of planking they should auto lose. having an easier time vs something thats unbeatable is worthless at top level play.

falco overall has better tools to fight mk and keep a lead than snake.

 

[Chuee]

Niddo, take a look at all the top level MK vs Falco vids and tell me Falco is fairly easy to gimp with MK.

 

[Spelt]

i don't remember the last time i saw a top level snake get gimped by a top level MK either.
gimping at higher levels of play is less common than at mid levels.

 

[Luigi player]

i don't remember the last time i saw a top level snake get gimped by a top level MK either.
gimping at higher levels of play is less common than at mid levels.

Gimping Snake happens all the time.

 

[niftybird]

I do not think good Snakes get "gimped" very often!

 

[Shadow Moth]

I don't think you understand what gimped means, Chen.

 

[BSP]

There's a good chance falco will take damage when returning to the stage, but he can usually make it back with his stock intact.

I agree that with no LGL, Falco really gets hit hard by planking...he has to go into his worst possible position in the game to attempt to stop it.

 

[Shaya]

LGL being used for MK only, as I personally promote, will probably have effects if that becomes standard.

Marth, Pit, ROB, etc can enjoy planking against falco...

 

[stingers]

man robs dont even ****ing plank. only chibo planks. ****ing chibo.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Coincidentally, Chibo beat Brood in Pools at Apex. xD

 

[stingers]

did you watch those matches? chibo didnt even plank in them, brood just played like an idiot (like honestly)

chibo is terrible at this game

and when he namesearches this and reads it

he'll reply with something like "LOL stingers you mad bro??"

 

[lilseph]

As much as i LOVE to plank with MK, i do agree that a LGL for MK only is a good idea.

 

[vVv Rapture]

did you watch those matches? chibo didnt even plank in them, brood just played like an idiot (like honestly)

chibo is terrible at this game

and when he namesearches this and reads it

he'll reply with something like "LOL stingers you mad bro??"

Chibo name searches himself?

 

[stingers]

yeah chibo namesearches.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Oh, that's...uh, good to know.

Either way, he did win, even if Brood played bad. I honestly didn't catch the matches.

 

[Orion*]

i don't remember the last time i saw a top level snake get gimped by a top level MK either.
gimping at higher levels of play is less common than at mid levels.

this is why i dont care about any of your opinions

 

[Spelt]

Wow how convenient i don't care about my opinions either.
We should go bowling or something.

 

[Kenrawr]

Kirk also placed 9th at a large regional (national?) tournament, only to get overlooked because it was just 1 single event. Before they stopped really using Ike or playing, Kirk, Renegade, Rykoshet, Silven(?) used to do quite well. Ike heavily declined in the period in time where they all were quitting or using Snake.

Me and Mr. Doom are probably best placing at the moment, followed by others who just happen to be in very strong regions such as theboredone, Red-X, Ryo(Florida), and Kimchi(who recently quit), along with people who use him as a pocket secondary and main better characters (takeover and infern?). That's all I have for offline tournaments. There are plenty of decent players with potential that just go to few to no offline tournaments, and Ike is very rarely used, anyways.

Even Slaps, an unranked player from Texas, used Ike and beat Hylian's Ice Climbers in a money match. This person also beat Hylian in bracket before. There are also other tales from other sets (Brett taking gnes to game 3, Mr. Doom vs UTD Zac and Dojo)

This is only for the U.S. We have seen things from the likes of Rydle from Spain as well as a few from Japan, Selcia and Abyss I think, also. Just trying to say that there still are other players who use him or used to use him and achieved some lasting success, and that whatever I'm doing to place well can be accomplished by someone else, too.

**** San, I'm suprised you even know I used Ike as a secondary even though it's been ages since I used Ike in tourney. LOL

But I agree with you too that Ike players have been on the decline heavily. Tbh you are the only notable Ike doing something at this time & that just goes to show as long as you are good in a game, most characters are viable as long as you keep learning.

EDIT: BTW THIS IS TAKEOVER POSTING ON K'9's account

 

[Purple]

Coincidentally, Chibo beat Brood in Pools at Apex. xD

Apparently brood didn't care because everything else was 2-0 2-0 2-0 2-0 2-0 so he was getting first seed anyways.

 

[Purple]

A+
Rufus, Abel, Sagat, Guile
A

Dhalsim, M. Bison (Dictator), Ryu, Ken, Balrog (Boxer), Chun-Li, Ibuki, E. Honda, Akuma
B+

Dee Jay, T. Hawk, C. Viper, Zangief, Dudley, Seth, Rose
B

El Fuerte, Adon, Vega (Claw), Blanka, Cammy, Cody, Juri, Gouken
C+

Hakan, Guy, Fei Long, Gen, Makoto, Sakura
C

Dan


Thats the global version.

The arcadia version is the one you refer which IMO, I think isn't as acurate.
if you get hard countered, your viability is severly hindered.

I honestly do see where they're coming from with Honda to an extent, that guy is pri nasty. But if this is seriously the tier list they use then I retract my previous statement about E.Honda and such.

If you're hard countered, the character that hard counters has to be at least viable in tournament, and when i say hard counter, i'm talking about, you. can't. win. There is very rarely any matchups of that nature, especially in a game as freelance as brawl.

Hard counter is something like Tager : Carl in Blazblue now that i really think about it. Incase you need to be informed of how it's a hard counter, tager needs to approach in most cases in order to get any significant damage, Carl can infinite tager with no chance of recovery from it from practically any normal; hard counter. No one gets hard countered to where whatever they do will kill them; brawl is too freelance in movement for that to happen (except for ganon: ics and things of that nature)


you guys really don't understand matchups, 5:5 and 6:4 are not BAD matchups in any extent, yes they are disadvantage, however they are not bad enough to be extremely shruggish about. 7:3 is serious disadvantage, 8:2 is hard counter.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@DPC:

Pikachu does hard counter Falco. I don't think there's anything at all he can really do to avoid getting grabbed by Pikachu eventually, plus the match-up isn't great for Falco otherwise.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@DPC:

Pikachu does hard counter Falco. I don't think there's anything at all he can really do to avoid getting grabbed by Pikachu eventually, plus the match-up isn't great for Falco otherwise.

Actually, the match-up is fairly even without a chaingrab. It is questionable who has a larger advantage without the CG, but it is neutral-ish for the most part if one ignores the CG.

It is rather ironic. Falco was thought really highly because he could 0-death over half the cast. Now, he can no longer do that and his worst match-ups are people who 0-death him (ICs, Pika).

 

[vVv Rapture]

You can't really ignore the CG, though. That's part of the fight and part of Pikachu's list of options against Falco. You can't take away a big part of the matchup just to declare it less one-sided in some way.

That's like saying DK does pretty well against MK if you don't take into account MK's tornado, shuttle loop and gimping ability.

You always gotta include everything possible in a matchup, that includes the CG.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That post was a bit off tangent anyway. But, that anaysis becomes the basis of why the match-up is not nearly as bad as is it really is. ICs obviously are the best example of that. They can 0-death everyone, but that is not the whole thing. Same with pikachu. Without CG, it's really just another even-ish match-up. However, pikachu is a bit diffferent. He has decent set-ups into grabs.

 

[Shaya]

Without the cg... Falco beats pikachu....
60:40+ in falco's favour for the life of brawl before the cg was discovered.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

For the record, I've always disagreed with that, although I was aware that it was the common sentiment.

Even so, that is just a tangent. My main point was simply that Falco and Marth are similar in that they both have one unwinnable match-up (with Falco having more that one, possibly). One of these characters (Marth) is borderline inviable and one just won a national (Falco). Certainly Meta Knight and Pikachu are both considered to be "viable" characters. The difference is merely propagated by the way the game has evolved here in the US, with a "best or bust" attitude taking an enormous prevalence. Although we in the US believe there is no reason to play anything but the best 5 characters, this has negatively impacted the game at a high level in a way that may be irrecoverable now; the way brood was able to part some of our best players like the Red Sea at APEX2 evidences this, surely (although I admit there are more factors than that).

Even all of this is somewhat tangential. My primary curiosity is how we gauge this sort of phenomenon on a tier list. Do we simply order characters in order of "quality," or do we ask if said character could feasibly do in our current tournament environment? Marth, Peach, and Toon Link are especially curious.

Incidentally, I do believe that many characters can be "viable" at a national level when played at the highest level and that Brawl is much more diverse than we believe it is, sometimes. Many people (myself included) believed the Olimar/MK match-up to be unwinnable before this past weekend. I don't think that will stop anyone from giving up and switching to Meta Knight, though.

 

[Shaya]

Wait a second SFP, did you just say marth is borderline unviable and has an unwinnable match-up against meta knight?

cawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww at you.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Borderline. That match-up is 65/35 (translated into smashboards, 7/3 everywhere else lol) but not totally unwinnable I guess.

Even if it is "winnable," imagine that you go into a tournament solo Marth. You're bound to run into at least 2-3 players with solid MKs in winners, which is going to make your life difficult, thus Marth isn't a great choice in the current US tournament environment. Do you disagree with that? I wouldn't dare go solo Marth on the East Coast, for instance. Going solo ZSS is hard enough and Faclo is no where near as common.

Again, I reiterate that I think Marth is a really solid character and think this is a bit of a shame.