The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[LanceStern]

Marth is still Top 7. Although his absence at APEX was discouraging.

Played correctly he is still a beast. Predictable maybe, but still a beast and hard to approach

 

[Purple]

When did a yoshi place that high in one of those tournaments... either i forgot or im way stupid

Yoshi at WHOBO.

@yagamilight - This is true; I'm sure that the three tournament placings -won't- be ignored in the next version; I'm curious where you think Ike would be placed otherwise. Bias isn't just with Ike, but every character that's lowmid/low. Think about it, it comes in stages. The people who main the character know so much about their own character that they feel there's no reason for them to be doing better. Everyone who doesn't know about the character uses very silly logic for why they should stay where they are "just cg ike and there's nothing he can do".

San is definitely showing things up, but there's still such a large group of people who haven't played him in tournament, who -feel- that there are simple things to do against ike

 

[Poltergust]

That Yoshi at WHOBO 2 was me, I believe.

 

[Purple]

Hey you're right Poltergust! :D

LOL

 

[Orion*]

Marth's zoning/pressuring does extremely well against Falco and Snake...
Neither have real ways to avoid it.

MK/Wario/Diddy are a tad bit harder though.

i said most!
and whats sad is that, (despite me personally thinking marth wins both those mus) they are nearly even matchups and both characters have poor tools at dealing with his zoning. LOL

 

[Shaya]

they're top tiers.

Trickle down the tiers and you find characters who are snuffed out of existence because they can't deal with his zoning

Snake's weight/kill power... ughh
Falco's cg... bs dodges...

Like Meta Knight's zoning and pressure does extremely well against falco and snake too.... and those are probably two of the only ones (diddy?) who go close to even with MK.

 

[Spelt]

Edit: ^^^^ Marth is like the queen of footsies

fixed for you.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Edit: ^^^^ Martha is like the Queen of footsies

fixed for you.

Fixed both of yah .

 

[san.]

Fair enough, but I would like to point out that a few characters occasionally getting top 16 / 32 in national tournaments sort of pales in comparison to a single character consistently getting top 12 at the last three nationals. That sort of achievement really IS Ike only.

Kirk also placed 9th at a large regional (national?) tournament, only to get overlooked because it was just 1 single event. Before they stopped really using Ike or playing, Kirk, Renegade, Rykoshet, Silven(?) used to do quite well. Ike heavily declined in the period in time where they all were quitting or using Snake.

Me and Mr. Doom are probably best placing at the moment, followed by others who just happen to be in very strong regions such as theboredone, Red-X, Ryo(Florida), and Kimchi(who recently quit), along with people who use him as a pocket secondary and main better characters (takeover and infern?). That's all I have for offline tournaments. There are plenty of decent players with potential that just go to few to no offline tournaments, and Ike is very rarely used, anyways.

Even Slaps, an unranked player from Texas, used Ike and beat Hylian's Ice Climbers in a money match. This person also beat Hylian in bracket before. There are also other tales from other sets (Brett taking gnes to game 3, Mr. Doom vs UTD Zac and Dojo)

This is only for the U.S. We have seen things from the likes of Rydle from Spain as well as a few from Japan, Selcia and Abyss I think, also. Just trying to say that there still are other players who use him or used to use him and achieved some lasting success, and that whatever I'm doing to place well can be accomplished by someone else, too.

 

[<π]

Bringing up the Japanese tier/MU list again since Japan owned at APEX. (It's kinda old though...)

Dang sheik.
3 match ups under 50%
top 10?

too bad japan has no idea what they are talking about :/

 

[Poltergust]

Not only that, but I only see 3... match-ups worse than 35-65. o_O

 

[Spelt]

obviously japan thinks this game is extremely balanced.

 

[Technodeath]

Haters gonna hate.


I think it's interesting on how they look at things like this

 

[Pikabunz]

They make it look balanced. Japan's 2nd best Olimar beats the best Snake and MK.

 

[Justblaze647]

I'll tell you they got one thing right...


Jigglypuff is dead last where she belongs

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Not only that, but I only see 3... match-ups worse than 35-65. o_O

This is something that struck me aswell - counter/hard counters rarely come up. The majority of their match ups are even or slight (dis)advantages, with a few 4's and 6's popping up every now and then

Japans interpretation must be very different to the US' interpretation of match up ratios

The things I really noticed with this list are:
-The match up ratios, the most extreme is DeDeDe vs DK which is 75:25
-Ganondorf and indeed Jigglypuff who is the worst character according to this list have no 30:70 match ups
-Some characters are drastically different in their placements in comparison to the US tier list
The list below shows the difference in tier ranking between Japan's and the US' Tier list. Example: Falco is one spot higher on the Japan tier list than he is compared to the US tier list
Yellow = No change
Green = Higher on the Japan tier list
Red = Lower on the Japan tier list
Cyan = Very much higher on the Japan tier list (+5 or more)
DarkOrchid = Very much lower on the Japan tier list (-5 or more)

Spoiler

1. Meta Knight =

2. Snake =

3. Falco +1

4. DeDeDe +4

5. Marth + 1

6. Pit +7

7. Wario =

8. Fox + 12

9. G&W + 3

10. Zelda + 25 / Shiek + 13

11. Diddy Kong - 11

12. Wolf +10

13. Olimar - 3

14. ROB + 3

15. Zero Suit Samus =

16. Ice Climbers - 11

17. Toon Link -3

18. Pikachu - 9

19. Kirby - 3

20. Lucario - 9

21. Ike + 8

22. Peach - 3

23. Mario + 8

24. Lucas + 4

25. ....Where's 25 gone on their tier list? Due to Zelda/Shiek combination?

26. Donkey Kong - 8

27. Luigi - 7

28. Pokemon Trainer - 4

29. Link + 7

30. Yoshi =

31. Bowser - 5

32. Sonic - 7

33. Samus =

34. Ness - 8

35. Captain Falcon - 3

36. Ganondorf + 1

37. Jigglypuff - 3

Shows how drastically different their tier list is compared to the US one

 

[Justblaze647]

lol at Zelda plus 25... talk about differing opinions

 

[Shaya]

can we please not have the same discussion on the same japanese tier list we did like a year and a half ago+?

Please...
It's at least a year old...

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Lmao a year old? Seriously?

Does Japan have a more up to date one floating around? Brawl's come on a heck of a lot in the space of a year

 

[Purple]

The real question is.

Who cares about their tier list? lol

 

[Purple]

Kirk also placed 9th at a large regional (national?) tournament, only to get overlooked because it was just 1 single event. Before they stopped really using Ike or playing, Kirk, Renegade, Rykoshet, Silven(?) used to do quite well. Ike heavily declined in the period in time where they all were quitting or using Snake.

Me and Mr. Doom are probably best placing at the moment, followed by others who just happen to be in very strong regions such as theboredone, Red-X, Ryo(Florida), and Kimchi(who recently quit), along with people who use him as a pocket secondary and main better characters (takeover and infern?). That's all I have for offline tournaments. There are plenty of decent players with potential that just go to few to no offline tournaments, and Ike is very rarely used, anyways.

Even Slaps, an unranked player from Texas, used Ike and beat Hylian's Ice Climbers in a money match. This person also beat Hylian in bracket before. There are also other tales from other sets (Brett taking gnes to game 3, Mr. Doom vs UTD Zac and Dojo)

This is only for the U.S. We have seen things from the likes of Rydle from Spain as well as a few from Japan, Selcia and Abyss I think, also. Just trying to say that there still are other players who use him or used to use him and achieved some lasting success, and that whatever I'm doing to place well can be accomplished by someone else, too.

I guess i'll ask you the same question, since Ike has the obvious sucess, how much farther do you think he should be?

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

The real question is.

Who cares about their tier list? lol

I can think of multiple people in the BBR who do...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Re: Marth

I'm not saying he isn't a solid character or anything, because hypothetically he has one of the best toolboxes. However, if you're choosing a character that you plan on competing with at a high level Marth is not a good choice in the current American tourney environment. If there was an even spread of characters at a high level, it wouldn't be such a huge risk, but Meta Knights are everywhere and as a result Marth placings are just going to suffer. There's obviously more to it than that (prospective Marth players playing Meta Knight who is similar but at least very slightly better in nearly every category).

Take Falco for example. Falco has at least one hard counter in Pikachu. Despite that, Falco is still a pretty safe choice because Pikachu mains aren't very common. In an environment in which we can guarantee a large amountn of Pikachu players, Falco isn't really a great choice either, despite being a really good character.

I think Marth is artificially suppressed by a very common mindset, which is "playing anything but the best character is dumb." This isn't actually true, but that isn't really the point I guess.

For now, Marth is a **** good secondary, but I'm not sure where I'd rank that on a tier list.

 

[Pikabunz]

That list was brought up in December.

 

[Ussi]

I think Falco should be 2nd ahead of Snake now.. Falco handles MK waaay better than Snake who you are mostly likely gonna run into.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think any character with a hard counter can be second, especially if their hard counter is viable. Falco is pretty good though.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

IC's are the second best.

 

[stingers]

vex you're such a troll I swear -,=

 

[Shaya]

you know who's second best?

Marth.

Because

meta knight is marth's easiest top tier match up.
Diddy is the hardest.
Everything else is even.

Except wario when we grab release fsmash tipper him.

FACTS.

Just replace "everything else is even" with "everything else is a MASSIVE ADVANTAGE".

and diddy is a terrible character who never shows up at tournaments these days since ADHD got school'd/life'd/pierce'd so nothing holding marfy boy back....


.

.

heh.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

vex you're such a troll I swear -,=

Not trolling.

 

[Spelt]

One things for sure, snake is definitely not second best.

 

[stingers]

its pretty obviously mk -> falco -> snake -> diddy and I've been saying that forever...

 

[Tetsion]

well those questioning why Pit is higher on the tier list in Japan, is mostly because people actually take interest in him. Good players pick him up, his overall performance is better.

If a really consistent good top player in America picked up pit. He would probably be explored more, and perform better.

Captain Falcon does better because Ally used him (from what I have seen) It's the tru fax.

edit: same goes for other characters. Diddy didn't get any spot-light until a smarter player ADHD came around. People took up diddy (some of them) and to no avail. We rarely see Diddy.

It's not that characters are junk characters, it heavily relies on player skill as well.

Fox, zelda/sheik(who i think should be used together anyway), pit, and others all do better because they have better players playing them. Brood is supposedly 2nd best olimar? Yet he beat Ally and m2k.. (from what i heard) so underestimating Japan is also pretty ignorant and shows how scrub you are. (Mentality anyway)

in honesty anyone mid tier and above are perfectly viable, and Ike btw is not low. Not imo anyway.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

edit: same goes for other characters. Diddy didn't get any spot-light until a smarter player ADHD came around. People took up diddy (some of them) and to no avail. We rarely see Diddy.

I guess Ninjalink never existed.

 

[Tetsion]

I guess Ninjalink never existed.

silly, ninja link plays everybody.

 

[stingers]

i hear NL could've beaten M2K with zelda if he wanted to.

 

[Spelt]

zelda is HORRIBLE. switching to her in the middle of a match for a kill is basically giving up your stock.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

So considering the recent rule change regarding allowing infinites...
Does this mean that some characters are going to inevitably drop?

 

[Shaya]

There were never any rules regarding infinites in the first place; other than the 300% "stalling" rule.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oh right, woops my bad