The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Justblaze647]

Oli boards are gonna crash... this is the most activity they've seen... ever

 

[<π]

DEHF is coming in from losers?

people get way~ to caught up on dumb stuff... every character has flaws even Olimar.

 

[Tesh]

except falco.

EDIT:
No it's guaranteed as long as there isn't a plat above the point of impact on the usmash. so it can work on any flat stage, but you aren't guaranteed it from every grab even on FD.

But Falco has :
A Much better projectile
Kill options that don't require you to be on Final Destination
A better, faster recovery at getting to and off the ledge

Needles can punish a sloppy landing from far away, but they don't do anything against people above ground level like lasers. Having to charge them makes it far less pressure on shields as well.

How is Upsmash not guaranteed on a flat stage like FD?

 

[Justblaze647]

Dehf is coming from winners. He put brood in losers earlier this tourney

 

[<π]

if you'd grab them and they'd go off stage once released.

sheik has tons of kill options sheiks just arn't using them for some reason/ NONE of falco's kill set ups are TRUE COMBOS even the dthrow to Bdacus~

scroll up and read all of what I posted...

falco's recovery is not better than sheik's by any stretch. An instant tether, a real up B. options are cool. edge or stage, watch and react over B isn't that amazing if thats a good recovery then... dang.

 

[Tesh]

Sheik doesn't get more horizontal distance than Falco thats for sure. And her recovery is much much slower, which is part of recovering. Falco can exploit a small opening and get right past you from the edge or offstage.

If you edgehog Falco he can get over you VERY far away from the ledge. Sheik can't, she will just land right above you for a ledgehopped aerial most of the time.

You can't just wait and watch for over B, he gets alot of distance. Most characters can't threaten an edgehog AND a punishment when he lands in the middle of the stage during your ledgesnap.

You don't need true combos to kill. What does sheik have as far as tons of kill options?

 

[Browny]

tons of kill options being...

what? Does she have anything that reliably KO's < 150 that doesnt require you to be at the edge of a stage except usmash?

 

[<π]

Um... zelda?

 

[stingers]

lol so i hear olimar is pretty popular guys

 

[<π]

he will be.

 

[stingers]

lol

How do you break a character? Give him a grab that beats spotdodges (you know, the things supposed to counter grabs), with the range of the longest tether (sometimes longer!), but with a quarter of the endlag. Make sure he can kill with the grab that has the longest range too, because he's not looking good enough yet. Yeah, give him massive disjoints and the ability to stack multiple projectiles on you at once. One of which does 6 damage per second! And make sure that you can pull out 6 new "projectiles" in the time it takes falco to SHDL. And let him combo into kill moves that can kill as early as 90% on middleweights...but give him a subpar recovery to balance him, all those other things might as well be useless when you consider there's a minute chance that you'll be able to gimp some of the stupider ones.

good...

 

[Blacknight99923]

only DEHF took a set off him all tourney.

finalized placings are
DEHF
Brood
Mew2king
Lee martin :Lucario:
Ally
lain
Atmosk
RAIN

1 Westcoast, 2 japan, 2 midwest (technically M2K), 1 canada, 1 south, 1 NJ

 

[<π]

Sheik doesn't get more horizontal distance than Falco thats for sure. And her recovery is much much slower, which is part of recovering. Falco can exploit a small opening and get right past you from the edge or offstage.
sheik has more vertical than falco and that's a part of recovery too. Saying that is mute and doesn't hold much value. all you really need is a half decent jab and a good guess to beat out falco's phantasm. Just finished watching it to day in Brood versus DEHF. DEHF died becaues of Illusion got grab out of the start lag, phantasm is far from some full proof way to recover despite the distance and speed it moves at.
I mentioned before the problem with sheik is people try to use vanish (and sheik's recover in general) like its a horizontal one and it really isn't. veertial recoveries IMO are laughes harder to deal with than horizontal ones. horizontal is very linera and easier to predict. vertical recoveries like marths upB, GaW's upB, Mk's upB are hardly ever even thought of as poor just because of how difficult they are to get to and deal with. For me sheik falls in the same boat at those characters

If you edgehog Falco he can get over you VERY far away from the ledge. Sheik can't, she will just land right above you for a ledgehopped aerial most of the time.
If you up B for the ledge so that you reach it with vanish you can upB very deep into the stage optionally with no landing lag. or you can aim for a plat. just as often as falco is in opsitions where he has to upB knowing he'll be punished sheik falls into those same problems.

You can't just wait and watch for over B, he gets alot of distance. Most characters can't threaten an edgehog AND a punishment when he lands in the middle of the stage during your ledgesnap.
You are jumping all over the place. it's really all weighter guess work. falco generally has two options that you can react to. or at least this is what come up most often. plats change it up a bit and give falco other options. he can:
A. go on stage, this beats the edge option nice and clean, but if some one decided to go for it and use a relatively fast attack on reaction they will beat falco's phantasm.
and B. go for the edge. If they edge hog you die. if they tried to react with an attack from on stage, grats you did it!
Other options the opponent can impoly are jump off stage aerial which if place corectly beats both options. also characters like peach, diddy, link, can use items to cover both options. Intenegent projectile use from most of the cast can intrupt both options before the chance for them comes up giving you and worst free damage at best a falco that air dodged below the stage to avoid it.

You don't need true combos to kill. What does sheik have as far as tons of kill options?
Dsmash, Nair, Uair, Bair, Fair, Vanish, usmash, fsmash. The bigger thingwith sheik is decay and managing that. fair for a lot of sheik's get pretty weak for example, but concidering it's tragectory it has conciderable knock back fresh, seriously go to training mode and play around.

dang I'm bored

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ha, i ****ing knew it. I said olimar was gonna do better sometime soon. NOW WATCH THE OLI'S REIGN OF TERROR COMMENCE!! >:D

 

[<π]

that or get quickly shut down as everyone learns the match up better.

I think Oli is gonna take off though hopefully this win boosts Oli confidence a little.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I'm shocked to see a lack of metaknight mains in top 8

only M2K went MK in a majority of matches, lee martins lucario was primarily his character and I only saw rain bust out MK on counterpicks in braket play

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What, no love for San coming in 9th at APEX, in the middle of a sea of 9th place MKs? Screw Olimar, screw you all!

Suddenly, I have an urge to look at Olimar more. lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ive always argued (and still will) that oli is top tier material. It's good to finally see some results that starts proving it

 

[<π]

Ooo... what makes you say that? Oli is a beast but is he that beast?

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think marth metaknight and falco are the best characters frame/hitbox wise actually. Of course that involves perfect play which is impossible

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ooo... what makes you say that? Oli is a beast but is he that beast?

His ground game is ridiculous and imo, one of, if not the best in the game. And i think oli has the potential to be THAT beast, he just needs someone to start showing it (like brood just did)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seeing as I haven't seen the Apex stuff yet, does this:

M2K and Ally both played pretty dumb against Brood to be honest. "Oh, I'ma try out-camping Olimar. Wait, I'm still losing? Lemme air dodge in and see what happens." I noticed the only person who would run up and spot dodge the grab was Larry. And guess who beat Brood. Twice.

I just realized Gnes choked when he should have beaten Larry. That set really changed up the tournament.

Sound right to you guys? Trying to get a feel as to what happened.

 

[Z'zgashi]

No johns man, a loss is a loss

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No johns man, a loss is a loss

Oh, I'm not disagreeing. What I'm trying to figure out is if it was a different style of playing Olimar, or people dropping the ball, or a combination of both.

 

[Tesh]

I thought you meant good klll options. I could list Ganons entire moveset and call them kill options. I'm talking about relatively safe or reliable kill options.

All the things you listed as being troublesome for falco's recovery are troublesome for sheik.

Sheik is also far less dangerous over all compared to Falco.

Marth, MK and GnW all rise fast, which is part of why they are so good. Falco moves quickly horizontally, which means you can't just sit, wait and react to where he is going every time. He has to be alot farther offstage to become as limited as Sheik.

 

[stingers]

pit is the best at perfect play...true facts

 

[Blacknight99923]

Marth doesn't really rise fast

its more of I have a disjointed sword so I can hit you from farther away= move to hit range in less time

 

[<π]

I thought you meant good klll options. I could list Ganons entire moveset and call them kill options. I'm talking about relatively safe or reliable kill options.

All the things you listed as being troublesome for falco's recovery are troublesome for sheik.

Sheik is also far less dangerous over all compared to Falco.

Marth, MK and GnW all rise fast, which is part of why they are so good. Falco moves quickly horizontally, which means you can't just sit, wait and react to where he is going every time. He has to be a lot farther offstage to become as limited as Sheik.

yes you can... the further out he is the more time you have to react.

all of sheik's kill options are all crazy fast... (IE 5 frames or less: nair bair fair dsmash) have combo's into them (usmash) or cover tech/roll options superbly(fsmash, ubB)
Of those nair bair fair can be used safely on most of the casts shield bar power shield and none of which can be spot dodged into a punish because of land lag during the move. Comparing sheik's kills to gannondorfs is :/

Falco and sheik recovery very very diffrently. sheik recovers (or at least should) vertically with invincibility, she doesn't have to worry about getting hit out of her recovery move ever if she is using it correctly.
her tether; she invincible once she pulls in. Falco isn't invinciible during his time traving (although I'm told there is invincibility on start up).

 

[Exdeath]

lol



good...

As far as I know, M2K never changed his opinion from ~'08 that Olimar is the best character in the game when played perfectly (a.k.a. without dumb mistakes).

 

[<π]

His ground game is ridiculous and imo, one of, if not the best in the game. And i think oli has the potential to be THAT beast, he just needs someone to start showing it (like brood just did)

you know what... I thought long and hard about it... he does have a crazy ground game. best mid/long range game by leagues, and his air game is pretty ridiculous as well...

I never really put much thought or focus on Oli but just looking at his range and speed he is a really powerful character.

 

[Espy Rose]

Ive always argued (and still will) that oli is top tier material. It's good to finally see some results that starts proving it

I think you mean result.

The other Olimars have gotta step it up if they want to convince people otherwise.
Brood is incredible, but we need to see some consistency for top tier justification, I think.

As far as I know, M2K never changed his opinion from ~'08 that Olimar is the best character in the game when played perfectly (a.k.a. without dumb mistakes).

Hey, you know what other character would be the best character in the game when played perfectly?

Anyone.

 

[Praxis]

only DEHF took a set off him all tourney.

NJ

Chibo 2-0'd Brood in pools.

 

[YagamiLight]

So how about that:

9th - San (Ike)

When it happened before (Pound 4?) it was a 'fluke' or something. So how about now?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Chibo 2-0'd Brood in pools.

I meant in brackets I should have been more specific

 

[Espy Rose]

It's San, YagamiLight. It's to be expected.

 

[uhmuzing]

I think the top 16 should make a difference in the Rankings thread for big tournaments (100+ maybe?), and not just top 8.
Between San's performances at MLG/Apex, Ike deserves points.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't think the system was configured for a national

 

[Pikabunz]

I agree with dragonblooded.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I also agree, that is a great idea

 

[uhmuzing]

It's not like it's my idea; it's been said before. But it makes no sense to not include more people in bigger, tougher tournaments like that.