The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[-LzR-]

Here we go again...
Player X go into place Y with character Z.
OMG lol the char must be so good derp.
I know we put tourney results in the tiers too, but just because Olimar went 1st or second doesn't make him the best char in the game or anything. I just always dislike the hype of this kind of stuff. It's the player who outplayed everyone, it's not always the char.
It's like San, he plays a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE character, but places well. Of course it's only because Ike is secretly top tier... Nope, San is just too good, he can read top players like a book and do all kinds of tricks. He is too good.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I couldn't sleep >_<

you know what... I thought long and hard about it... he does have a crazy ground game. best mid/long range game by leagues, and his air game is pretty ridiculous as well...

I never really put much thought or focus on Oli but just looking at his range and speed he is a really powerful character.

Olimar has a lot of things going for him. But, his recovery is still sub-par, and his pikmin have no priority what so ever. He is sort of like Marth. Many characters get beaten by Dtilt/Fair by Marth, but those that can handle him are those that have the tools to do so. Olimar is similar. If a character does not have a means to get through the pikmin, they get beat pretty badly. But, if they can block the pikmin, they do rather well against Olimar. I still do not see much happening for olimar. Brood is just a really good player.

Falco and sheik recovery very very diffrently. sheik recovers (or at least should) vertically with invincibility, she doesn't have to worry about getting hit out of her recovery move ever if she is using it correctly.
her tether; she invincible once she pulls in. Falco isn't invinciible during his time traving (although I'm told there is invincibility on start up).

There is no invincibility at all in phantasm. He has a hurtbox out at all times during the attack. The problem is hitting him in that 1-2 frame window when he appears in the middle of the attack before he teleports to another location.

 

[YagamiLight]

It's like San, he plays a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE character, but places well. Of course it's only because Ike is secretly top tier... Nope, San is just too good, he can read top players like a book and do all kinds of tricks. He is too good.

Said horrible horrible character got top 12 placement at Pound 4, MLG Columbus and now Apex.

I was willing to accept it being a fluke the first time. Hell, maybe even the second time.

San may be far and away the best Ike main but uh, Ike is the only mid / low tier to have achieved that sort of consistency in results. If you're going to tell me that San's opponents were people who fell for "all kinds of tricks" then that's a different argument altogether.

 

[Shaya]

Ike isn't a bad character.

I feel he at least deserves lower mid status

(certain person isn't in the BBR this time to be like 'lolikeisprobablyworstcharacterinthegameganondoesokayagainstdiddyatleast')

 

[Spelt]

lol ike is probably worst character in the game ganon does okay against diddy atleast.

 

[Shaya]

crap.... you're a BBR spy?
How did you know someone said that!

 

[Purple]

Haven't we already discussing that Ike actually does relatively well against high tiers? It's not that Ike is bad, it's just that everyone else is better.

That sounds dumb as **** for me to say but think about it; everyone above him either has better MUs or has shown potential in larger forms to be good characters. When you guys are saying Ike is bad; don't, because he has potential to do well (this has been shown by San). Every other character above San (while maybe not top 8) has shown top 16 / top 32 potential many many times. He's just not as good as other characters (i.e, his recovery is -horrible-, or san is only -one player-; the character still sucks).

 

[Spelt]

crap.... you're a BBR spy?

im in ur BBRz steelin ur purpl titlez.

How did you know someone said that!

I think i read it on the internet somewhere...

 

[-LzR-]

Ike isn't good. San is just ****ing amazing! It's not always about the char, the player can just be so good that he can outplay people very well.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think the stage has been set for one of the high tiers to justify themselves as the top of the high tier. Right now we have a solid block of characters that consists of (opinion of course) MK Snake Diddy Falco Climbers Marth and Wario. People might differ on their placements within the top 7, but those 7 are generally agreed as being the best.

After that opinions differ heavily, and no one has really made a strong case for themselves to move up further. I'm not sure if this if this qualifies. However, when you're comparing Oli to Pikachu and DDD, characters who haven't been doing significant things, it wouldn't be hard to see Oli moving above them

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I kind of doubt that Marth is top 7. I can't make up my mind about Olimar, Squirtle and Pikachu being possibly better.

inb4Shaya

 

[Justblaze647]

In favor of Pit right? smh you silly Europeans

 

[Flayl]

Pit has absolutely no hype here that I've heard of, why are you making that **** up?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pit pretty much has negative hype

 

[-LzR-]

Absolutely no one plays Pit. Except in Wifi he is among the most popular characters.
Wifi players suck

 

[Z'zgashi]

...pit isnt even popular on wifi. Maybe more popular, but still rarely used

 

[Purple]

Do you guys just sit in here all day and argue? :|

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ye s

 

[Justblaze647]

Okay, so that was a bad assumption. Plus I got ninja'd by Gheb's edit.

My bad, Europe. You guys are cool beans

 

[YagamiLight]

Haven't we already discussing that Ike actually does relatively well against high tiers? It's not that Ike is bad, it's just that everyone else is better.

That sounds dumb as **** for me to say but think about it; everyone above him either has better MUs or has shown potential in larger forms to be good characters. When you guys are saying Ike is bad; don't, because he has potential to do well (this has been shown by San). Every other character above San (while maybe not top 8) has shown top 16 / top 32 potential many many times. He's just not as good as other characters (i.e, his recovery is -horrible-, or san is only -one player-; the character still sucks).

Okay, I can't be the only person to have thought this post made very little sense.

Sentence 1 claims that Ike has relatively good high tier match-ups. Then the next paragraph follows by saying that everyone above him has better MUs. So who are we comparing Ike to exactly? Only the people below him? Of course he's not going to rise in that context.

Then the claim is made that Ike isn't bad because he has potential. Everyone has potential. Ike has RESULTS. Which is something that mid / low tiers besides him [Sonic does stuff too, but not on a national level] do not have.

Then you say that every character above San has shows top 16 / 32 potential. I'll interpret this in two ways: 1) San means San and 2) San actually means Ike. 1) Of COURSE every character that placed at or above San's level has done better than Ike. Here's a pretty good reason why: They are all top tier candidates (which Ike is not). If we mean that every character above Ike has done better than him at nationals or in general, then that's just a flat out lie. I could just point out Lucas or Bowser but there are a lot more who don't perform at Ike's level.

Then you say that he sucks because he has a horrible recovery (it's not even bottom 5, by the way) and then you say that San is only one player. You spent most of the post saying Ike isn't bad, just underperforming and then you finish up by saying that he sucks and San is the only reason for the good results.

My head is spinning from the contradictions. Spinning right round. Like a record.

Ike isn't good. San is just ****ing amazing! It's not always about the char, the player can just be so good that he can outplay people very well.

Is "It's not only about the char" a fancy way of saying that it's only about the character when you want it to be? Because that's what it looks like.

 

[Deleted member]

...pit isnt even popular on wifi. Maybe more popular, but still rarely used

I'm picking up Pit as an alt.

But yeah, not many people play him.

 

[Pikabunz]

Bringing up the Japanese tier/MU list again since Japan owned at APEX. (It's kinda old though...)

 

[stingers]

japanese tier list is so interesting. lucario is right next to ike. and zelda/shiek are above them both. and pit is above that. both of whom are above diddy.

japan *****.

MK is only even with Snake and Fox? wow

 

[Shaya]

I know their general opinions of Diddy has changed over time.

IIIRC, that list was made when they still had counter pick stages.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I'm extremely skeptical zelda and shiek is that high

 

[Spelt]

But you have no problem with Fox, or Pit? Or Jigglypuff...

 

[Deleted member]

I completely agree with the Wolf/Meta Knight matchup on that list.

As for Pit...wow. His meta game must be pretty evolved. He does seem like an underrated character from what I've played of him, though. Great comboing potential.

 

[uhmuzing]

Do they interpret the numbers the same way we do? How is Sheik/Zelda vs. Ganon a 6? Or Dedede and DK?

What about infinites? Or all the gay things on Fox?

 

[Yonder]

Oli hype train, even though he is amazing...drat people are catching on, quick, abuse his recovery!

 

[Pikabunz]

Lucas and DK's numbers are supposed to be switched.

I'm sure they do count infinites. See how D3 has 7.5 on DK and 7 on Samus.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I kind of doubt that Marth is top 7.

Me too. The Brawl metagame is becoming more footsies oriented and he doesn't have the tools to keep up. IASA frames on Dtilt are nice, but it's still a frame 7 move which is terrible for a poke.

 

[Nefarious B]

LOL ZSS has all evens except for like 2 matchups

Edit: ^^^^ Marth is like the king of footsies

 

[Turbo Ether]

Edit: ^^^^ Marth is like the king of footsies

Um, not even close. All he has is Dtilt. Which is still a slow poke.

 

[Nefarious B]

We obviously have a different idea of what footsies is then. I would just consider it poking and zoning to bait, in which case fair and to a lesser extent nair are great tools for it as well.

 

[Blacknight99923]

quite frankly if your getting shield poked in brawl against almost any character you are doing something wrong. Shield management isn't THAT HARD.


Also I am positive this list is extremely old

 

[Purple]

Okay, I can't be the only person to have thought this post made very little sense.

Sentence 1 claims that Ike has relatively good high tier match-ups. Then the next paragraph follows by saying that everyone above him has better MUs. So who are we comparing Ike to exactly? Only the people below him? Of course he's not going to rise in that context.

The Match-Up I'm referring to in particular is Snake. Last time I checked he actually has a fairly good matchup against him. Probably should've specified more here, however I'm really just saying That Ike has matchups (or I guess -one- matchup, to my knowledge) that he can win that's common in high level tournaments.

Then the claim is made that Ike isn't bad because he has potential. Everyone has potential. Ike has RESULTS. Which is something that mid / low tiers besides him [Sonic does stuff too, but not on a national level] do not have.

No, not everyone has potential. Saying -everyone- has potential ignores some characters that just won't win notable tournaments.

I said top 16/32 is potential correct? Let's look at recent tournaments to see who has broken this mark. Of course I'm only noting characters that are low and mid. (incase you're curious, I used WHOBO 2, MLG Columbus and Orlando, and lastly Apex 2)

Toon Link
Kirby
Rob
ZSS
DK
Luigi
Ness
Sonic
Pit
Yoshi

The only people who don't have it are Peach, Fox, Sheik, Bowser, PT, Wolf, and Lucas) However in their own respects they have (besides bowser and Lucas) Have shown to do well against high tiers when played well enough. (ex, Reflex beating Tyrant in a MM MK vs PT, Samboner getting 3rd at Hobo with Fox, The surge of good bowsers in Europe, Armada doing well at Genesis with Sheik, some wolf main from a while back tearing up FL *then again that's a while back, i'd rather not use that as anything definitive*). I'm sure Ike's in the works to being higher than a few characters in the next tier list; hell I don't even think the v4 tier list is even reliable anymore

Then you say that every character above San has shows top 16 / 32 potential. I'll interpret this in two ways: 1) San means San and 2) San actually means Ike. 1)

Lol yeah you're right

Of COURSE every character that placed at or above San's level has done better than Ike. Here's a pretty good reason why: They are all top tier candidates (which Ike is not).

-all- of them? You really have to stop using every, all, and none in arguments; that really isn't the case.

If we mean that every character above Ike has done better than him at nationals or in general, then that's just a flat out lie. I could just point out Lucas or Bowser but there are a lot more who don't perform at Ike's level.[/QUOTE]

Then you say that he sucks because he has a horrible recovery (it's not even bottom 5, by the way) and then you say that San is only one player. You spent most of the post saying Ike isn't bad, just underperforming and then you finish up by saying that he sucks and San is the only reason for the good results.

Is recovery is pretty linear, but really you can take those last comments as tongue-in-cheek comments; me giving the outside person looking in's opinion on ike.

My head is spinning from the contradictions. Spinning right round. Like a record.

At least sing the song right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhFe1EYAixw

Is "It's not only about the char" a fancy way of saying that it's only about the character when you want it to be? Because that's what it looks like.

I agree with this pretty heavily though.

Quick 'saving of my own skin' I guess. I don't know strongly about Ike's MUs and such, so if I am saying anything wrong don't be shy to tear me up for it (like you're already doing

 

[Z'zgashi]

When did a yoshi place that high in one of those tournaments... either i forgot or im way stupid

 

[YagamiLight]

The Match-Up I'm referring to in particular is Snake. Last time I checked he actually has a fairly good matchup against him. Probably should've specified more here, however I'm really just saying That Ike has matchups (or I guess -one- matchup, to my knowledge) that he can win that's common in high level tournaments.

Well, if you were to ask me, I would say that Ike has good match-ups against Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario and the Ice Climbers. But that's not really the point, I guess.

No, not everyone has potential. Saying -everyone- has potential ignores some characters that just won't win notable tournaments.

I said top 16/32 is potential correct? Let's look at recent tournaments to see who has broken this mark. Of course I'm only noting characters that are low and mid. (incase you're curious, I used WHOBO 2, MLG Columbus and Orlando, and lastly Apex 2)

Toon Link
Kirby
Rob
ZSS
DK
Luigi
Ness
Sonic
Pit
Yoshi

The only people who don't have it are Peach, Fox, Sheik, Bowser, PT, Wolf, and Lucas) However in their own respects they have (besides bowser and Lucas) Have shown to do well against high tiers when played well enough. (ex, Reflex beating Tyrant in a MM MK vs PT, Samboner getting 3rd at Hobo with Fox, The surge of good bowsers in Europe, Armada doing well at Genesis with Sheik, some wolf main from a while back tearing up FL *then again that's a while back, i'd rather not use that as anything definitive*). I'm sure Ike's in the works to being higher than a few characters in the next tier list; hell I don't even think the v4 tier list is even reliable anymore

Fair enough, but I would like to point out that a few characters occasionally getting top 16 / 32 in national tournaments sort of pales in comparison to a single character consistently getting top 12 at the last three nationals. That sort of achievement really IS Ike only.

-all- of them? You really have to stop using every, all, and none in arguments; that really isn't the case.

Aside from the fact that I like to make blanket statements, I will point out that every character who placed above Ike really is a top tier candidate, even if not top tier on the current tier list. MK, Snake, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, Olimar, D3.

I agree with this pretty heavily though.

Quick 'saving of my own skin' I guess. I don't know strongly about Ike's MUs and such, so if I am saying anything wrong don't be shy to tear me up for it (like you're already doing

Well, it's not so much as you saying anything wrong as it is just not being entirely familiar with Ike. Which I wouldn't really expect from non-Ike users anyway (who has the time to concern themselves with a mid tier character that's not their own?).

One thing I would like to point out is that people have a boatload of anti-Ike bias, more so than against any other character in the game. That's why I am a bit hesitant to say that he'll even move above Lucas in v5. Not even the BBR is bias-free, although I will commend them for being a solid group even with minor bias.

 

[Orion*]

We obviously have a different idea of what footsies is then. I would just consider it poking and zoning to bait, in which case fair and to a lesser extent nair are great tools for it as well.

only against characters with poor zoning or oos options. in which case, he ***** most of those caracters. almost all of the top characters, he does poorly against at a high level sadly :/

 

[Shaya]

only against characters with poor zoning or oos options. in which case, he ***** most of those caracters. almost all of the top characters, he does poorly against at a high level sadly :/

Marth's zoning/pressuring does extremely well against Falco and Snake...
Neither have real ways to avoid it.

MK/Wario/Diddy are a tad bit harder though.