The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Brawlin]

DK actually has some of the least representation in the game, results wise.

Lol then idk how they came up with his placement then. If his matchups in the top tiers are not that bad other than dedede and mk then that clearly has something to do with it then.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't think you really understand this character. Jigglypuff is terrible against D3... you shoulda said Diddy, or maybe Falco.

Do you have any idea how little I care about Jigglypuff's MU ratios? lol. I saw Jigglypuff being good against D3 earlier in the topic IIRC, so I threw that out there. Fine, Diddy then. Whoever. You still have to hope the person you're facing has no Jigglypuff experience.

 

[Ripple]

Lol then idk how they came up with his placement then. If his matchups in the top tiers are not that bad other than dedede and mk then that clearly has something to do with it then.

because he can kill anybody under 90% including snake and D3.

if you didn't know it, DK is one of the best punishers in the game. his frame 11 d-smash OOS hits a very large area and kills most mid weights characters around 100%

 

[Brawlin]

because he can kill anybody under 90% including snake and D3.

if you didn't know it, DK is one of the best punishers in the game. his frame 11 d-smash OOS hits a very large area and kills most mid weights characters around 100%

Yeah good point. He does have great killing power like you said and is not Ganon slow either.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol you guys suck at character discussion (not that its important but if u are so serious about it, at least do it right)

"Ganons ground game is better'
"No jiggs makes up for it with her air game"
"No ganon kills easily, jiggs gets juggled easy, slow fall speed, light weight, sucks"
"Jiggs has good air game, makes up for ground game"

All true, but you dont really get anywhere XD A character is not made up by their air and ground games. Just because snake doesnt jump around throwing out aerials doesnt mean hes not top tier. Just because ganondorf has range on some of his ground moves and has some solid ground moves does not mean his ground game is good. Being able to punish many of his important moves on reaction, and having such a garbage grab range (if he had a good one he might be a decent character imo) make him suceptable to shield camping. Gerudo is a good option but isnt hard to counter if the other person knows ganon. Ganon punishes reads hard, which is pretty much all he is good at, but at least hes really good at that.

Listing moves that are better than jigglypuff equivilants does not make ganon better than jigglypuff because jigglypuff DOESNT USE THOSE MOVES. Talking about jiggs' ground game when she doesnt really stay on the ground is dumb and pointless, you should talk about what she does. Vica versa
*runs*

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's near impossible to draw a line between the two.

When does stalling become excessive?

That's why "stalling is banned" is a meaningless statement and can only really be taken as a statement of intent, especially when you consider how it's defined in the ruleset (essentially a page out of sirlin in the area of "glitches that undeniably end or prevent gameplay").


Jigg's stalling is not invincible either data-wise or in terms of mix-up potential, so it's not banned. It's just putting yourself in a good position to avoid damage and play defensively.





In terms of jiggs overall, you underrate her, her horizontal mobility allows her to play an incredibly safe game (bair is almost always safe on PS for example) while at the same time forcing her opponent to commit. Her fall speed IS an issue, but at the same time, her multijumping does considerably aleviate the issue because that combined with her mobility means that she has the tools to bait a juggle and escape after the juggle has successfully baited it.


Jiggs has fundamental problems in her difficulty killing and a rather weak overall moveset, but her attributes compensate them to a substantial degree, and that shows by the fact that she has a much more interesting MU spread then any character near her.

 

[Meru.]

... It's Britney Spears. Come on man, even a MetalMusicMan should know that.

Ok guys, what do we think about Falcon. I'm curious, as I think he's a big piece of ****.

 

[Chuee]

Falcon is bad.
Really bad.
but maybe better than 3-4 other characters.
but still really bad.

 

[deepseadiva]

Uair is pretty good though.

 

[Kofu]

Falcon is somewhere in the bottom three.

That is all.

 

[Chuee]

maybe 4th or 5th worst.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I believe Ally caused him to rise artificially (like a certain high pitched, winged boy who needs to drop like 8 spots) a bit too high. He is second worse in the game? Probably not. His Jab, Uair, and overall speed is decent enough to keep him from that position. 5th worse, only beating Jigglypuff, Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf? Probably yes. I believe Samus beats him. I think. I can't remember what I said on the last tier list I made...*goes digging through topic*

EDIT: I had Falcon > Samus. Yays for something to think on.

 

[Meru.]

Falcon is somewhere in the bottom three.

That is all.

I agree. I really dont see how Falcon is better than Samus, Jiggly and Zelda. He can... run around?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I agree. I really dont see how Falcon is better than Samus, Jiggly and Zelda. He can... run around?

Jab. A usable "run away" game (I'd say the only other characters who have a chance at this are Sonic and Wario. Jigglypuff doesn't have the ground game to keep her safe every time she's forced to land on the ground, or the Up to help her recover in an emergency. Pound takes too long.). Decent KOing power with moves that aren't easy to SDI/see coming. Good aerial game combined with a decent ground game.

The character himself is decent, in fact, I saw somewhere that overall his moves when comparing them to Melee while ignoring everything else were buffed slightly...it's just that the engine and playstyle of Brawl really exaggerates his priority problems, and the fact that his ideal style of play simply doesn't work in Brawl.

 

[Justblaze647]

He's got some fun options against Wario

I agree. I really dont see how Falcon is better than Samus, Jiggly and Zelda. He can... run around?

You bring up an interesting point. I don't mean to detract away from Falcon discussion, but where do you guys thing Zelda is going next list? She hasn't really show any unleashed potential since her fall to Hyrule tier.

 

[Chuee]

Falcon also has really good air release options on a lot of the cast.

 

[Spelt]

Uair is pretty good though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"Priority" isn't really an issue for him (I assume you mean the small size of his hitboxes).

The issues for Falcon primarily are that he is a fastfaller who gets chain grabbed and combo'd to hell by, like, everyone, his moves start fast but generally lag on the back end, and he can't approach (and has no projectile). Also, several Falcon moves are not safe on hit at low percents.

If I had to guess I would say giving him a projectile would solve many problems for him.

Falcon has a ton of good moves, it's just that the are built for a game that Brawl is not (as someone said above).

 

[Meru.]

Jab. A usable "run away" game (I'd say the only other characters who have a chance at this are Sonic and Wario. Jigglypuff doesn't have the ground game to keep her safe every time she's forced to land on the ground, or the Up to help her recover in an emergency. Pound takes too long.). Decent KOing power with moves that aren't easy to SDI/see coming. Good aerial game combined with a decent ground game.

The character himself is decent, in fact, I saw somewhere that overall his moves when comparing them to Melee while ignoring everything else were buffed slightly...it's just that the engine and playstyle of Brawl really exaggerates his priority problems, and the fact that his ideal style of play simply doesn't work in Brawl.

However, it seems that for everything he does, he will pay the price even harder. Despite his speed, it's not hard to damage him at all. While he has decent KO power, his pressure game is bleh. He lacks disjoints. His approaches get shut down so easily (mainly due to his priority problem) and he has too little to force approaches. His frame data is mediocre. He gets pressured hard and his recovery is also bad. He has some grab release stuff, but in exchange for that, the 2nd worst grab range in the game.

I find him very, very unimpressive.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Captain Falcon's grab range kind of sucks but he has good setups for it, including jab, and a slightly less reliable first hit nair.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@Yaaay: everyone in the lower half of low tier is unimpressive dude. If they were impressive, they would be higher. Also, he recovery isn't bad. Not great, more along the lines of mediocre, but not bad.

 

[Meru.]

@Yaaay: everyone in the lower half of low tier is unimpressive dude. If they were impressive, they would be higher. Also, he recovery isn't bad. Not great, more along the lines of mediocre, but not bad.

I mean unimpressive for even a low tier. At least Samus has a Zair, Zelda some sparkles and Jiggly an airgame, but Falcon... idk.

His recovery is kinda ****ty though... Maybe I'm a bit biased about that because it's stupidly easy to edgehog it with Peach (floating next to the ledge).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falcon has speed: he is the fastest low tier movement wise overall. He also has the second best jab of the bunch, one of the best Uairs of the group, and probably the third most jab release stuff after Ike and Yoshi. He'll (hopefully) have the best jab for low tiers next tier list update with Ike moving up.

 

[<π]

If falcon had a better opening dash he'd be leauges better thats the only reason I chose sheik over him when i started playing. He speed can be very overwhelming, but you have to be so far away from your opponents to be very precise with your aerials and safe with your dash dances and stuff. His moveset isn't all that bad IMO. it's that he is TOO fast with out the agility that other really fast characters have or the ability to just reset and really mix up his approaches he'd be much more powerful overall.

 

[Brawlin]

Falcon does have power and speed. The problem with his power is that his more powerful moves have starting lag, making them punishable before he even attacks. His priority sucks too. And yeah he is easy to combo even with just chaingrabs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Yaaay: everyone in the lower half of low tier is unimpressive dude. If they were impressive, they would be higher. Also, he recovery isn't bad. Not great, more along the lines of mediocre, but not bad.

Totally disagree. I think Falcon's recovery is hugely underrated. He comes back from surprising angles and distances and generally is not easy to edgehog. Also has a nice-sized second jump.

 

[Spelt]

Falcon would be mid tier if side b didn't put him in helpless state on hit.

 

[Kofu]

Totally disagree. I think Falcon's recovery is hugely underrated. He comes back from surprising angles and distances and generally is not easy to edgehog. Also has a nice-sized second jump.

His recovery is fairly impressive in terms of distance, yes. However, it's quite telegraphed with very few options, especially since his fast fall speed makes even little mistakes extremely dangerous for him. He has no comfortable way to hit those on the ledge if he's too far down, too.

To be honest, Ganondorf's recovery isn't all that bad either, though is worse aerial speed and second jump height do hinder him a bit. Overall, though, when it comes to distance, both are quite decent.

 

[Poltergust]

Actually, Ganon's recovery is still terrible distance-wise. He is one of the few characters in the game that you don't even need to edge-guard because certain launch angles would make it impossible for him to make it back (like Fox's d-smash, for example).

At least with Falcon he can recover from virtually any attack if unhindered.

 

[Kofu]

Vertically, Ganondorf is hardly more limited than Captain Falcon is, partially due to his ridiculous ledgegrab range. It's possible to Wizkick out of a fullhop, second jump, then Up-B to grab the ledge on Final Destination.

Falcon definitely wins horizontally though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can gimp Ganondorf by jumping into his Up B, and then hitting him with a fast enough aerial right after the attack ends. That's not a good recovery.

 

[Kofu]

In raw distance, it's not much worse than Falcon's.

But in terms of safety, it's certainly worse.

I do believe Ganon is worse than Falcon.

 

[smashkng]

Using Ganon, I have to accept that Ganon's recovery IS one of the worst in the game, I unavoidably get gimped so often with him it is definitely about as bad as Link's, and because of its terrible horizontal distance, good DI and saving the double jump is often required with Ganon, and even then he still gets gimped. His Uair often prevents unsafe rushings of the opponent but doesn't help so much that he can't get gimped. You can hit through his Up b during the start-up or hitting directly above it, and like Nidtendofreak said you can punished for grabbing with Up b by a large cast, depending on their aerials it may lead to a gimp or not, though most of the time you don't even need that at all to gimp Ganon so easily. And the 30 frame landing lag from grabbing with Up b complicates getting back to the stage with Ganon, and to get back with ledge dropping he is required to use ledge drop + double jump and air dodge immediately after that is pretty hard to do. Despite how bad his recovery is, Ganon can surprisingly still gimp really well with Uair, Nair (against other bad recoveries) and with an occasional Dair, though his short horizontal recovery prevents him from going too far offstage.

 

[<π]

links recovery is better than gannondorfs. Way's safer because of the upB hit box, huge disjointed aerials, tether and items.

 

[smashkng]

Link's Up b however is still intercepted (doesn't have much priority at all despite being disjointed especially hitting him from above) and can be SDIed out of (probably I think with even punishment if he doesn't sweetspot the ledge early) and his aerials aren't safe enough to prevent gimps, they're not designed to prevent that other than probably the non-disjointed Nair. However, his projectiles (most notably his Boomerang) can often prevent gimps but not always and anyone with an aerial with long duration can outpriorise it and get farther to still gimp Link. The Tether isn't safe if the opponent is near the ledge cause he doesn't get invincibility immediately and before he gets it he doesn't get his double jump back if he used it

 

[Mr-R]

WTF are u guys talking about!
link SHOULD BE HIGHER

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

WTF are u guys talking about!
link SHOULD BE HIGHER

OMG THIS.

Link is so much better than Ganon. Like, leagues better.

 

[phi1ny3]

links recovery is better than gannondorfs. Way's safer because of the upB hit box, huge disjointed aerials, tether and items.

THANK YOU

like seriously, nobody EVER seems to take into account that ganon is guaranteed to die for using his recovery after like 80% lol.

Link lives longer, has projectiles, has a lot of disjoint/range in his recovery, projectiles, and if you really want to add options, a zair.

too bad both suck either way in that scenario lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

Link can survive to great percentages if you're smart with him. For example, if you get a bomb out before you're hit offstage and use the explosion for a second spin attack you can recovery from almost anywhere.

 

[smashkng]

Link's great Momentum Canceling is so mostly because of having the 2nd fastest fast fall in the game (only DDD has a faster one), but you can't fast fall when you have a Bomb in your hand. Without his ability to fast fall he has the survivability of only a mid-heavy character. Plus Bomb recovery is very situational in Brawl and barely helps his recovery.

Also, Link's projectiles are so slow and easy to deal with for almost any character including Ganondorf, without damage output like Snake's Grenades. His Zair however is good but it's in not super-hard to deal with like Samus' and loses lots of its usefulness against small characters including MK.