The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[YagamiLight]

Fox is an amazing character and if you disagree then you are wrong~~

That said, I probably wouldn't place him in the top ten but he's definitely good enough to break into B tier. Also a good thing to keep in mind is that even if ICs are a ridiculously hard match-up (as are Pikachu and Zelda / Sheik [emphasis on Sheik, of course], to a lesser extent) nobody is going to bust out a pocket ICs, Pikachu or Sheik against you and win because Fox isn't DK, simply put.

On the other hand, I really can't see many Fox users ever getting high rankings at nationals because so many players are discouraged by Fox's large weakness(es). Fox is definitely one of those characters where you just kind of go "**** this." at some point, I guess. A lot of mid tier (and below) is like this, but Fox's situation is a bit worse than the others.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He may do fine against MK, but that doesn't make up for the unwinnable matchups.

Do Falco's good qualities make up for his unwinnable match-ups?+

 

[Yikarur]

8 minute timer is fine imo. I agree with Gheb in terms of Stages but I don't like the air time-time out-winning condition rule at all.

 

[Delta-cod]

8 minute timer is fine imo. I agree with Gheb in terms of Stages but I don't like the air time-time out-winning condition rule at all.

You should, it probably helps us a lot. /bias

 

[AvaricePanda]

Do Falco's good qualities make up for his unwinnable match-ups?+

Falco's good qualities/match-ups are far better than Fox's though.

Maybe Fox doesn't belong in D tier but you're making it sound like he's as good as or almost as good as Falco and it's only his bad match-ups that are putting him in D tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Falco's good qualities/match-ups are far better than Fox's though.

Maybe Fox doesn't belong in D tier but you're making it sound like he's as good as or almost as good as Falco and it's only his bad match-ups that are putting him in D tier.

I believe Fox is as good as any C-tier quality character, and a few B-tier ones.

I would like to see the "oops you have a hard counter you're fatally flawed" mentality go away, though, especially if Falco is going to remain top tier.

Anyway, I was merely responding to Ahvena, who asserted that Fox's place on the tier list was due to his poor match-ups. Many high and top tier characters have unwinnable match-ups. Falco, as an example, has two very difficult match-ups (one of them is considered to be unwinnable, depending on who you ask). Wario and Diddy lose to a variety of random mid tier characters, although none of those match-ups are unwinnable. ZSS loses hard to Falco and is probably going to be low high-tier next tier list. King Dedede loses hard to MK.

Having counters doesn't make a character bad unless anyone can just pick this character up and lol at you, such as in the King Dedede vs. Donkey Kong situation where anyone can pick up King Dedede, learn the infinite, and win unless the infinite is banned.

Fox has other flaws, but none of them are bad enough to merit his current tier list position. Peach is in a similar boat right now.

 

[-LzR-]

King Dedede doesn't lose hard to MK at all. Where you go that one? >_>
I mean that a character who has these "pick up Pikachu and bye bye stock" matchups just don't have it what it takes. Look at DK , he is a solid char, a very good char, but oh yeah Dedede ***** him. Fox is ***** by several characters.

 

[Purple]

The reason that fox isn't higher is because of ignorance; no other reason.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't really think that tier list should follow stuff like "no one plays him".

 

[Purple]

I don't really think that tier list should follow stuff like "no one plays him".

Tell that to people who use tournament results for tier lists.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

King Dedede doesn't lose hard to MK at all. Where you go that one? >_>
I mean that a character who has these "pick up Pikachu and bye bye stock" matchups just don't have it what it takes. Look at DK , he is a solid char, a very good char, but oh yeah Dedede ***** him. Fox is ***** by several characters.

Fox is ***** by three characters. Falco is ***** by two of those characters. Does Falco have what it takes? Didn't a Falco player just win APEX solo? Am I mistaken?

ZSS is ***** by Falco. Didn't a ZSS just place third at MLG Columbus and 9th at MLG Orlando?

What does it mean to "have what it takes?" Have what it takes to win a large tournament like TKD has before? I'm curious as to what your criteria really is, since "can't have any hard counters" has a lot of holes in it.

 

[Chuee]

^
Falco is ***** by one of them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

^
Falco is ***** by one of them.

It depends who you ask. I'm not entirely sure. Some people say his worst match-up is ICs. Some say it is Pikachu. Some say he is ***** by both. Neither of them are easily won, regardless, though, and one hard counter is still a hard counter.

Point taken, in any case.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's actually questionable if either character "*****" Falco. It remains to be seen until that match-up is played on a high enough level to be taken into consideration. Falco might have one 65/35 disadvantage but Fox has 2 match-ups that are worse.

I do think though that Fox could easily be in B-Tier.

 

[Purple]

Supermodel From Paris has been talking legit lately.

Just thought I'd say that.

 

[-LzR-]

Dedede is holding DK down. Sheik, IC and Pika together are holding Fox down. Both are otherwise good characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dedede is holding DK down. Sheik, IC and Pika together are holding Fox down. Both are otherwise good characters.

DK has plenty of disadvantaged match-ups besides D3 and almost every character can give him a hard time if they know the match-up. Fox loses only few match-ups aside from the 3 you mentioned and he actually has solid advantages against a lot of characters. He's very hard to beat for pretty much every character except Sheik, ICs and Pikachu.

 

[Justblaze647]

Lol at Sheik holding down the character higher than she is

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dedede is holding DK down. Sheik, IC and Pika together are holding Fox down. Both are otherwise good characters.

Dedede is holding DK down because it's so easy to use Dedede as a counter to DK. You don't have to have an ounce of actual character knowledge to side-b, then hold shield to punish DK's approaches and CG him to 150. It's that easy. It becomes even easier when there's a LGL because DK can't camp the ledge and wait for an opening (essentially refusing to land).

You absolutely cannot claim that to be true in the case of Pikachu vs. Fox. The chaingrab only works before 40% (someone please correct this if I'm wrong) and it is entirely possible (probable, even) that Fox can avoid the chaingrab before 40%. If Pikachu wants to try to force an approach with his mediocre projectile, Fox can answer in kind with a mediocre projectile of his own. It is easier for Fox to force an approach than vice versa, Fox just needs to be careful. The match-up is certainly touch-and-go for Fox, and is by no means good, but is not unwinnable.

Ice Climbers and Shiek vs. Fox are unwinnable. Top Falco players claim Pikachu to be unwinnable for Falco, and I would be inclined to agree. It is thus reasonable to conclude that bad match-ups do not always hold characters down, as we have seen top Falco players place well and win tournaments again and again, and we have seen Fox do it as well, just not as much (there aren't as many good Fox players, and well, he just isn't as good a character).

DK has plenty of disadvantaged match-ups besides D3 and almost every character can give him a hard time if they know the match-up. Fox loses only few match-ups aside from the 3 you mentioned and he actually has solid advantages against a lot of characters. He's very hard to beat for pretty much every character except Sheik, ICs and Pikachu.

This is true as well. Fox goes even or better with many top and high tier characters, beats many (most) high mid tiers (even ZSS who can 0-death him). He is incredibly unpredictable, annoying to camp and hard to approach, and deals a lot of damage very quickly (full fair deals over 20% damage by itself). His recovery is reliable (if not great), and on top of all of that, the threat of a 90% kill on a good read is impossible to ignore.

Now, Fox has flaws, but he does pretty all right for himself in my opinion. If Falco came across ESAM or Anther in a tournament he'd pick out a secondary, too.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Dedede is holding DK down. Sheik, IC and Pika together are holding Fox down. Both are otherwise good characters.

I disagree with this.

DK still has trouble with a lot of high tier match-ups, and his match-up with D3 is far more unwinnable than anyone's match-up with Fox.

I highly doubt it's solely these match-ups holding him down (Sheik isn't even played much in most regions lol), but Fox just doesn't do great in the first place. He does okay against A-B tier and has winnable match-ups against all of them, but who does he actually beat? D3?

There's a difference between Falco's doing great against most D-G tier characters and beating some A-B while having two pretty hard match-ups vs. Fox's doing well against most D-G characters while not really beating anyone in A-B aside from D3 while having two very hard match-ups.

I can't see him in B tier. C tier, probably.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Just going to say this but SFP only knows about top tier characters. He has no idea what he talks about when he talks about low tires. (typo intentional)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I highly doubt it's solely these match-ups holding him down (Sheik isn't even played much in most regions lol), but Fox just doesn't do great in the first place. He does okay against A-B tier and has winnable match-ups against all of them, but who does he actually beat? D3?

For one, ZSS. A few good players think he beats MK (not me, but it's someone's opinion so worth throwing out there). In my opinion he beats Wario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's a difference between Falco's doing great against most D-G tier characters and beating some A-B while having two pretty hard match-ups vs. Fox's doing well against most D-G characters while not really beating anyone in A-B aside from D3 while having two very hard match-ups.

Fox actually has a sound advantage over G&W and Lucario. More so than Falco in my opinion.

 

[Meru.]

Its nice to see "Fox is B tier" and all, but who is he going to surpass in that case?

I dont see him higher than Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link or Peach to be honest. So who are left? Pit? Kirby? R.O.B? Donkey Kong?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think he's better than G&W, Lucario, ROB, Peach, Kirby and DK

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd like to see Peach and Fox right next to each other, actually. He's easily better than Pit, Kirby, DK, and ROB. Peach, GaW, and Fox are about equal in my mind, with a slight edge overall to Peach because she is 4/6 at worst with everyone in my opinion. I don't think MK is all that bad now that I've started to learn to play her.

 

[<π]

yall better stop down talking my girl... sheik is a beast. I'm cocky as hell saying this but anyone who's played mine will tell you she can do a lot more than you'd initially think. She is a crazy deep character.

I think zelda/sheik is top ten. top 15 at the very least.

She has amazing match ups over all, beating or going relatively even with most high teirs. The only problem with sheik is she gets no hype.....

zelda isn't all that bad either I've changed my mind about her conciderablly over the last few months. her moveset and air mobility actually do a lot for her, there are just very few zelda's out there making use of her huge advantages. She has the worst recovery in the game though...

 

[Meru.]

I'd like to see Peach and Fox right next to each other, actually. He's easily better than Pit, Kirby, DK, and ROB. Peach, GaW, and Fox are about equal in my mind, with a slight edge overall to Peach because she is 4/6 at worst with everyone in my opinion. I don't think MK is all that bad now that I've started to learn to play her.

Yes, I agree, Peach and Fox have always been quite close but imo Peach shines a little bit more. I have high hopes for both.

She has the worst recovery in the game though...

OH HELL NO. Zelda's recovery > Ganondorf, Link. At least those two. But yeah, Zelda is extremely underrated. She has some horrid match-ups (MK, Snake, Olimar, Peach) but she's not all that bad. She deserves to rise again.

As for Zelda/Sheik being that good, well... is there actually anyone who uses both of them? Both of them barely have any representation, but if they're being used, it's almost always solo.

 

[stingers]

ROB has gone from 6 -> 9 -> 12 -> 17

low tier next please?

 

[vVv Rapture]

I feel bad for Samus. It's only when she takes off her clothes then she gets liked. But when she has all the armor on, she feels left out.

It sucks though, because she seems like a solid character. Sakurai just trolled her with bad kill options and probably the worst up-smash in the game.

EDIT: And trolled her projectiles.

EDIT2: And is big and floaty.

EDIT3- **** it, why would he intentionally nerf her to make her so bad lol. I really wish she was viable.

 

[Brawlin]

Yeah I kinda think Fox and Peach should be higher on the tier list. I think Fox does deserve C tier and Peach at upper C tier or B tier maybe. There are characters higher than Peach that have matchups worse than 40:60, while 40:60 being her lowest matchup ratio.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I wonder if D tier will get split up in the next tier list and the characters will either get shoved into the lower section of the tier above or the higher section of the tier below them. Maybe some of C Tier will move up into the lower sections of B Tier

I wouldn't be surprised if the next tier list had fewer tiers with more characters in them

 

[Chuee]

I feel bad for Samus. It's only when she takes off her clothes then she gets liked.

Sigged.
Amazing statement.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS now has an option that is safe on shield vs many taller characters (many of whom comprise her worst match-ups). Only a few can punish this out of shield effectively and I don't think anyone can shield-grab it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtZfKNn0oFw

Like anything else, this is subject to reads and has many downsides, but it's something and should stop Snake players from shield-camping ZSS to death as long as she is not predictable and doesn't get randomly utilted =)

Three parts to this video:

1. On an opponent who is not shielding
2. On an opponent who has a partial shield (shield poking)
3. And finally, on a shielding opponent.

 

[.AC.]

will it hit a crouching snake?

 

[Renki]

^ Sheik has the same thing.

We call it, "The Stomp". :B

 

[<π]

Yes, I agree, Peach and Fox have always been quite close but imo Peach shines a little bit more. I have high hopes for both.



OH HELL NO. Zelda's recovery > Ganondorf, Link. At least those two. But yeah, Zelda is extremely underrated. She has some horrid match-ups (MK, Snake, Olimar, Peach) but she's not all that bad. She deserves to rise again.

As for Zelda/Sheik being that good, well... is there actually anyone who uses both of them? Both of them barely have any representation, but if they're being used, it's almost always solo.

Mmm... Zelda's recovery has so much start up and landing lag. (30 frames of land lag if you aim into the ground even ) No auto ledge snap while moving
It has great range, but the start up and ending times really make it a horrible recovery, the worst. Recovery isn't just about distance traveled.
I do now.
Ed does.
And I know of a few european Zheiks.

the thing about both characters bad match ups is switching almost always instantly changes the match up ussually favorablly. And they really complement each other well when used to gether. sheik racks damage so fast in pretty much every match up ftilt combos, needles, and frame traps out of her combos.
zelda kills very low in most of hers and can bait into powerful long lasting disjointed hit boxes like Utilt and Usmash that kill about as early as snakes utilt. her aerials are all amazing killing as low as 60 fresh.

 

[Laem]

how is this different from a character like wolf (rising) bairing some1 while going through him/her...?
(To SFP)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

how is this different from a character like wolf (rising) bairing some1 while going through him/her...?

It isn't, we just never did. =)

I made this other video showing a few other applications of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIZ5lj_BP9c&feature=channel) but none of them are very practical and I sound like a ****ing ****** because I was tired and inebriated when I recorded my voice (how many times can a person say "cool" in a single video)?

The thing is, it gives her a way to hit opponents BELOW HER which we didn't realize she had, and it's going to be a really big deal, I think.

 

[stingers]

you have to get very close before you can jump through with a bair though sfp. you can be grabbed before you leave the ground

rising uair is safer.