The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[rPSIvysaur]

1. Really limited aerials and air game. They have small-ish hitbubbles and hit at weird angles or come out slowly. His uair and nair are decent, nair being like his only attack that's safe to use on a defensive character.

2. Very slow gimmicky ground game. His fastest smash is -14 frames,- and should be pretty hard to land unless you beast and get the dtilt lock off or something. I admittedly like a few moves he has. Some of his tilts are fun, and his recovery is very strong.

3. Grab-release issues. Ness has these too, but Ness has a solid air game and can easily avoid getting grabbed. Lucas doesn't really have this luxury; he is pretty easy to grab and can't really avoid it as well.

4. Trouble killing anyone, in theory. His fair is an OK off-stage gimp, but despite his insane kill power, he has no reliable setups and the kill moves themselves are really slow.

4.5. His moves don't string well into each other if at all, and playing Lucas seems to be chip damage until 90 and then mindgaming them into a 14+ frame kill move or trying to gimp them with fair.

5. Bad match-ups and a startling lack of results to his name, despite there being several good Lucas players in the country who are very capable; Lucas is just not a good vehicle for these players.

Incidentally I think if DJC was in Brawl, Lucas would be like 100 times better.

This is like one of wrong... I don't even know where to start.
Maybe you're describing Ganon?

You also have to realize we have PR Lucas in NC @ 6. We just never report our tournaments.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@<3:

I think Jigglypuff in the future will come out very strong suddenly like she did in Melee. She'll start hitting people 1-2 times and then hanging out offstage for 8 minutes and killing people at 30% on a read.

Also: if I'm wrong on some of my points (or even all of them) whatever, Lucas still fails to place on a grand scale for some reason. Even Samus places better on average =/

 

[Purple]

Rise, just curious, do you play Lucas, or have you ever had experience playing Lucas?

 

[T-block]

@<3:

I think Jigglypuff in the future will come out very strong suddenly like she did in Melee. She'll start hitting people 1-2 times and then hanging out offstage for 8 minutes and killing people at 30% on a read.

Except Rest doesn't kill until like...180% in this game

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Except Rest doesn't kill until like...180% in this game

Really? I knew it didn't kill at like 0% like it used to, but I was pretty sure it could still kill early-ish. Before I knew the Jiggs match-up, I lost to a Jiggs who dair->rest me at like 50% and killed me off the top on Halberd.

Before that, I thought Rest couldn't really kill and was kind of surprised to be proven wrong.

For the record, if I sound ridiculous talking about Lucas right now, Chueee, you know how I feel when you talk about ZSS now.

 

[Purple]

Rest never killed at 0%

Sounds like bad DI

 

[<π]

I think MK is like 50-50 on neutrals. I wreck MKs that don't know the match up. M2K wouldn't fight me on the ground because I punish even well spaced aerials and tilts with needles or dash attack every time. Sheik is faster than MK and probably the best character in the game at safely penetrating people's zones. You kill MK way lower than he kills you in this match up.

IC are one of sheik's worst match ups if not the worst and even then... I think having the match up at 70/30 is debatable. sheik has all the tools to avoid the grab, while still racking damage. she can space on D3's shield you know? I'd lean closer to 60/40 from my own experiences.

Pika is the other bad match up and i'd put that some where between 70/30 or 60/40. Pika has the chain grab but it doesn't lead to a kill, ever. and pika's physics over all are just bad for the match up. you can grab release to tipper and like MK he gets ftilted very well. all of his attacks are easy to punish for sheik because of needles. Even QACs away can be punished if platforms aren't an option.

And then you have the option of zelda who does very well against both IC and Pika just because they are don't have good ways to push through zones. Against pika I go zelda until I'm out of the chain grab range for example.

 

[Shaya]

I've been killed on fountain of dreams at 0% from a rest -.-

And DP, that's a question you'll have to remind me about another time, nearly 4am johns.

 

[Renki]

S: MK
A: Snake, Falco, Diddy, Wario
B: Marth, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Dedede, ZSS, Olimar, Lucario, Toon Link
C: Peach, Game and Watch, Fox, Pit, Kirby
D: R.O.B., Luigi, DK, Wolf, Ike, Ness
E: PT, Sonic, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link
F: Sheik, Yoshi, Mario, Samus, Zelda, Jiggs
G: Lucas, Ganondorf

Beyond like B tier I'm not really considering the order, just what group they're in. So I don't really care if like, Sheik worse than Mario or something.

...You really think Sheik's worse than Bowser? Than Falcon? Than Link? and possibly even Mario? Wow...

No <3 for Sheik at all. ;\

 

[Chuee]

SFP:
Wat, I never talk about ZSS.
I think she's actually a pretty good character but Falco kinda ***** her.

 

[Kofu]

Rest starts killing at about 70%.
You're better off trying to gimp.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think MK is like 50-50 on neutrals. I wreck MKs that don't know the match up. M2K wouldn't fight me on the ground because I punish even well spaced aerials and tilts with needles or dash attack every time. Sheik is faster than MK and probably the best character in the game at safely penetrating people's zones. You kill MK way lower than he kills you in this match up.

IC are one of sheik's worst match ups if not the worst and even then... I think having the match up at 70/30 is debatable. sheik has all the tools to avoid the grab, while still racking damage. she can space on D3's shield you know? I'd lean closer to 60/40 from my own experiences.

Pika is the other bad match up and i'd put that some where between 70/30 or 60/40. Pika has the chain grab but it doesn't lead to a kill, ever. and pika's physics over all are just bad for the match up. you can grab release to tipper and like MK he gets ftilted very well. all of his attacks are easy to punish for sheik because of needles. Even QACs away can be punished if platforms aren't an option.

And then you have the option of zelda who does very well against both IC and Pika just because they are don't have good ways to push through zones. Against pika I go zelda until I'm out of the chain grab range for example.

1edit on point is not what you said I apologize. but no one else thinks its even on neutrals, shiek is not the best character at penetrating zones as she doesn't have disjoints, obviously have you never heard of mach tornado.
2. I can't comment on not getting grabbed as I don't main shiek but I doubt it. however grabs aren't all Ics have, And sheik has nothing bar needles that will actually go through a desynch blizzard. if there is I want a vid.
3. switch to zelda.... well then obviously we aren't discussing SHEIKS TIER LIST position are we

 

[T-block]

Rest in Melee could kill at 0%... IIRC Fox could survive from the centre of FD up to 12% or something.

Well I was obviously exaggerating about 180% lol... it KOs at around 60%-100%, depending on the character. I'm pretty sure I've had D3 survive my Rest at 100% before.

 

[Renki]

1. Don't know the match up IS A TERRIBLE REASON FOR PUTTING THE MATCH UP IN YOUR FAVOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OBVIOUSLLY IF THEY ARE ON EVEN GROUND THE MATCH UP IS NOT IN YOUR FAVOR, shiek is not the best character at penetrating zones as she doesn't have disjoints, obviously have you never heard of mach tornado.
2. I can't comment but grabs aren't all Ics have, And shiek has nothing bar needles that will actually go through a desynch blizzard. if there is I want a vid.
3. switch to zelda.... well then obviously we aren't discussing SHEIKS TIER LIST position are we

1. He actually didn't say it was in his favor. He said 50-50. It's a long stretch, but I don't honestly believe it myself. 60-40 is pretty accurate. MK can be hard, but GR-Dacus hurts like whoa.

2. ICs suck for Sheik. Her worst matchup imo. Not much else to say.

3. A lot of people say Zelda/Sheik, w/e. Some people say they should be combined. *shrug*

Just chill dude.

 

[<π]

rest percents are meh... it varies wildly from character to character. Sheik (who I think dies fastest from rest?) is at like... high 80s? where D3 can live up wards of 140 with DI on most stages. I've decided rest should be used to punish people who commit to things the shouldn't in the air. so if you bait an air dodge with uair or even an empty jump rest should be how you punish that for a low percent kill.

Rest really is one of jiggs worst kill moves. but it is also her fastest move over all, and once they do reach that kill percent they are dead regardless the only other high knock back move this is true with is aerial roll out which you don't get very often.

weak nair-> footstool? yeah. Jiggs is a beast.

Hmm... I think the gap in viability in characters is way way smaller than people like to imagine. Down here in FL sure MK wins a lot, but you see a lot of variety in the top 8 every tourney. This is starting to become more and more true as we travel. (FL hype!!!) in this game sure counter picks do factor in. but closing your mind off to what characters can and can't do will only weaken you as a player. This game is so much more player versus player than character versus character. If you are reading your opponents moves every time it doesn't matter if they are MK or gannondorf the end result should be the same every time.

 

[Purple]

Sheik and Zelda shouldn't be combined, unlike PT, you don't have to change into your counterpart, therefore you can voluntarily play only one MU instead of involuntarily playing two.

 

[Renki]

Sheik and Zelda shouldn't be combined, unlike PT, you don't have to change into your counterpart, therefore you can voluntarily play only one MU instead of involuntarily playing two.

I agree personally. I never combined them in my own tier lists. Was just pointing out that they're combined in a lot of people's lists.

 

[<π]

1edit on point is not what you said I apologize. but no one else thinks its even on neutrals, shiek is not the best character at penetrating zones as she doesn't have disjoints, obviously have you never heard of mach tornado.

you don't penetrate zones with mach tornado... you presure with mach tornado or punish air dodges and other "bad' (I don't want to use that word) commitments tornado starts like frame 20 something. its not a way to beat most good players zoning IMO.

2. I can't comment on not getting grabbed as I don't main shiek but I doubt it. however grabs aren't all Ics have, And sheik has nothing bar needles that will actually go through a desynch blizzard. if there is I want a vid.

Honestly if one thing works why use another? sheik's movement speed is way too good to ever really get cornered espeacially on stages that aren't FD.

3. switch to zelda.... well then obviously we aren't discussing SHEIKS TIER LIST position are we

I always forget about those tourneys that don't lets you use down B... my fault bud.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sheik and Zelda should be combined because by pretending the option to switch doesn't exist we deflate (visually) both characters' chances at winning tournaments significantly. A sheik player is harder to counterpick because Zelda exists, even if Zelda isn't as good.

 

[Purple]

Sheik and Zelda should be combined because by pretending the option to switch doesn't exist we deflate (visually) both characters' chances at winning tournaments significantly. A sheik player is harder to counterpick because Zelda exists, even if Zelda isn't as good.

Think of this, in a matchup that's even for Sheik, but disadv to Zelda, would the Sheik main switch? The merge of both characters makes the character drop rank when the drop isn't necessary. By saying they are the same character we actually deflate Sheik's visual chance of winning tournaments and inflate Zelda's (sheik has a good Mu for many characters while Zelda can't be said likewise). If a Sheik main switches to zelda, it's considered a character cp which can be countered as well.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

But I digress I play pretty much all the "bad" characters. link is far from slow he lives longer than most because of his insane Momentum cancel. tons of safe on shield options and great low percent kills moves. his zoning game is ridiculous he out ranges most of the cast in the air and on the ground even without Zair. you bait an air dodge with link and between fsmash utilt dsmash you get kills. not to mention true combos from bair and jab into kill moves. Link is a solid character his recovery can be an issue but as you mentioned there are characters with worse options. I get gimped with link about as often I get gimped with and other two jump character, even versus MK.

Uhhh...his moves really aren't safe on block. Jab usually is cancelled into something else as a mix-up, otherwise most of the cast can punish the end lag.

Of course his Zair, Fair, projectile, are safe on block when spaced correctly, but his move set really isn't what I would call, one of the safest.

His range is very large but in exchange he gets large start-up and end lag that hinder him.

Then is oh so, almost worst recovery in the game.

Link isn't as bad as some people say, but trust me he is bad.

 

[phi1ny3]

Zeik combined should really be discussed together.
I also think they have some pretty nice potential. Barring the fact that switching against very safe and very overpowering characters makes the switch virtually insignificant at higher levels of play.

At the same time, I can't exactly agree with 50/50 MK even on neutrals. Especially once MK gets her offstage, and even her on the ledge doesn't help, she gets hurt so hard by the billions of ledge traps MK has, she has like virtually little in the way of getting back onstage. That and possibly playing one of the safest zoning games, which makes getting the leg up in percentage difficult?

Think of this, in a matchup that's even for Sheik, but disadv to Zelda, would the Sheik main switch? The merge of both characters makes the character drop rank when the drop isn't necessary. By saying they are the same character we actually deflate Sheik's visual chance of winning tournaments and inflate Zelda's (sheik has a good Mu for many characters while Zelda can't be said likewise). If a Sheik main switches to zelda, it's considered a character cp which can be countered as well.

You don't always look for the build of Zelda to switch.

You're looking at her tools for a given scenario.

If the character has outplayed sheik in safety and has as much to gain in landing one move as Zelda, or if the character's way to hard for Zelda to penetrate, you don't usually switch.

But the power of the combination comes from the ability to play the best out of a punish and strong string game, then get the ultimatum of forcing the opponent to be limited to avoid getting hit by one move that's usually fairly safe, will kill for sure, and has a couple of setups (dtilt ftw), all while having to find a hole in Zelda's defense. The trick is to use a marginally significant percentage gap to force more offense from the opponent, which as Zelda being a somewhat decent defensive character, only gets coupled with more power with only having to land virtually one hit. This removes Zelda's normal weakness of having crappy methods to force approach by herself, and having virtually no approach options. The only drawback is, what if you're game is so safe, you can still afford to play more defensively?

 

[CO18]

Okay, so you know multiple Marth mains, even though you said there was only Mike Haze.

If they are placing top 3, they are more than likely beating high tier characters to get there, including snake, MK, ICs, Pika, etc. You get what i'm saying here? Marth is outplacing many high tier characters.

Not many people know about Nick Riddle, when people thought ZSS, they thought Snakeee. This isn't an "you''re out of your mind" thing, Nick Riddle really didn't go many places outside of Florida. I

I live in the Atlantic South region, I've personally met many of these people and have seen them play first hand. Seibrik and Co18 are the main people known outside of Florida, because they actually compete outside of FL. Just because ESAM and Nick Riddle started doing good in MLG, doesn't mean that they were well known this whole time. That is a load of bull**** to even say. Are you going to say that Lounis was well known for the past year too?

IThey really aren't all that ridiculous, Florida is known to be a good state, but not an extraordinary state.


Also, out of conversation, but AlmostLegendary I don't like your tone from how you're typing to me. If you're going to prove your points, don't do it by just saying my points are stupid. go find some information and tournament results that show your points then come back to me. Look back at tournaments outside of the past two MLG events and tell me where Nick Riddle has placed well in a national level setting. You don't see it. Like I said before, you'll see Seibrik and Co18, who are notable players in their own right (CO18 being possibly the best Dedede in the nation), but you don't see that much else. You also won't be seeing Esam in those placings. The state as a whole is known for being a good state, but not each player in particular.

What are you talking about columbus was the first time nick or esam has travelled.
Halberds travelled once and went to texas beating gnes and razer then losing to razer in grand and got 2nd. Florida is def the best state between Seibrik,Nick,Esam,Me,Hrnut,Halberd,Afro,Chaz,Shaky etc etc.
East coast top players came here and lost to our unrankeds cuz everyone is mad good now
ksizzle lost to mk18, malcolm to dewdadash, candy to ed and kyon etc.

Seibrik and I have been the only people that have travelled which is why noone knew how good we were up until recently with orlando and columbus.
edit: well I wont say def cuz socal is extremely good also

 

[Purple]

What are you talking about columbus was the first time nick or esam has travelled.

Seibrik and I have been the only people that have travelled which is why noone knew how good we were up until recently with orlando and columbus.
edit: well I wont say def cuz socal is extremely good also

.......


I really hope you realize you're actually on my side of the argument, and that AlmostLegendary is the one saying that players like Nick Riddle have been known for long periods of time




@ph1ny3 - the way you explained that makes perfect sense. I retract my statement.

 

[<π]

Link's fsmash1, spaced utilt and ftilt are all safe on block.

@daddy
It doesn't work like that. combining doesn't mean you have to average their respective match ups.

 

[CO18]

I dunno I was just addressing your post. And he is right he has been known for awhile and considered the best zss by most people for awhile now but people just didnt know just HOW good he was until the recent months at MLG, alot of people were still doubting him saying Florida just doesnt know how to fight ZSS the same way they said for shaky when he got 2nd at 2 recent tourneys here. Then they ***** oos as well

 

[Purple]

Link's fsmash1, spaced utilt and ftilt are all safe on block.

@daddy
It doesn't work like that. combining doesn't mean you have to average their respective match ups.

I've already seen the error of my ways

 

[Purple]

I dunno I was just addressing your post. And he is right he has been known for awhile and considered the best zss by most people for awhile now but people just didnt know just HOW good he was until the recent months at MLG, alot of people were still doubting him saying Florida just doesnt know how to fight ZSS the same way they said for shaky when he got 2nd at 2 recent tourneys here. Then they ***** oos as well

So neither Nick Riddle or Shaky could be the considered the best of their character, because overall they underestimated how FL handled those characters. Until recently when in a high-scale tournament people are having the same problems that FL deals with.

tl;dr - no one really thought extremely high of them until MLG

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I dont see why they would do bad in the first place if they have a very healthy and active smash scene with good tournament turn outs.

People doubt simply because they dont do oos. I tend to listen much more closely to people that know them irl, over what random people on the internet say.

That combined with watching vids of them performing.

 

[Kitamerby]

I don't get why the hell people are so intent on combining Sheik and Zelda. There are absolutely no good reasons why they should be combined. Their playstyles are completely different. Their matchups are completely different. They aren't even from the same game in this incarnation. The only similarity they even have is that they both lack a dedicated down special. Simply saying "Zelda can lose to Pikachu slower than Sheik can) does not magically mean that Sheik has a reasonable matchup against Pikachu. It means that Zelda loses to Pikachu slower than Sheik. That is all. A Sheik main is not obligated to learn Zelda in order to win, which is completely unlike Pokemon Trainer, who is outright forced to use every single character in a 3 stock match both by the mechanic of stamina, and because he is literally forced to use them. :x

 

[Espy Rose]

Active Smash scenes don't necessarily make good players.

Look at the West Coast.

Spoiler

Oh snap!

 

[Purple]

I dont see why they would do bad in the first place if they have a very healthy and active smash scene with good tournament turn outs.

People doubt simply because they dont do oos. I tend to listen much more closely to people that know them irl, over what random people on the internet say.

That combined with watching vids of them performing.

If the top player was not good high-level, they would all be performing along his said level (assuming there are no exterior training motives)

 

[Kuraudo]

Active Smash scenes don't necessarily make good players.

Look at the West Coast.

Spoiler

Oh snap!

dems fightin words

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Thats why people that travel oss. They get more exposure, more experience, and thus have a better shot at a higher placing.

Whose to say there isnt really good talent locally? My area suffers from the lack of it.

 

[<π]

skill levels vary wildly from one region to the next. Hawaii could be leagues greater than us here on the main land but since vids and such don't ever do any one justice. how do we compare skill levels? The same can be said for any isolated region.

 

[Purple]

skill levels vary wildly from one region to the next. Hawaii could be leagues greater than us here on the main land but since vids and such don't ever do any one justice. how do we compare skill levels? The same can be said for any isolated region.

Pretty much that, as well as money problems stopping players from playing OoS

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Thats why i try to stay away from comparing people and go by what people say. Which is dangerous to do because hype/locals will tend to be biased towards their buddies.


There really is no right answer to this problem as a whole. I usually go by gut feelings, which when I do I'm never that far from the truth.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

skill levels vary wildly from one region to the next. Hawaii could be leagues greater than us here on the main land but since vids and such don't ever do any one justice. how do we compare skill levels? The same can be said for any isolated region.

I'll disagree with this PX ran throw hawaii while PX was one of the top players in the nation if Hawaii was as good as you claim it wouldn't of gone down like that.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Link's fsmash1, spaced utilt and ftilt are all safe on block.

*OoS Turnips* D:

Joining the tier list bandwagon

S:
A:
B:
C: :shiek:
D:
E:
F:

I don't know best and my knowledge of few characters is pretty hazy but...meh might as well give it a go

I suppose you could consider F as Bottom Tier, E as Low Tier, D and C as Mid Tier, B as High Tier, A as Top Tier and S as MK Tier


I did have a massively long 'in a nutshell' explanation for my thoughts but I'm not going to post all of it unless people ask me to explain some of my reasonings because I don't want to clog up this thread

Edit: - Zelda/Shiek are not combined because Zelda would just drag Shiek down in nearly all cases
- Squirtle is top of C Tier, Ivysaur is below Falcon, maybe in F or E and Charizard would be below Shiek

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

.......


I really hope you realize you're actually on my side of the argument, and that AlmostLegendary is the one saying that players like Nick Riddle have been known for long periods of time

Nick Riddle has been known for long periods of time just because you've never heard of him doesn't mean **** get a clue =/.