The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Yink]

Wow you guys get more and more impatient. I understood why everyone made tier list last time around cause they took forever to get this one but **** this one isn't that old. Lol tier list time again.

I'll make one later.

Oi, it's most likely (in fact really likely) thanks to the MLG stuff going on right now. But that seems like a no duh I'd think.

 

[Xebenkeck]

meh since everyone is showing there opinion here is mine. More things to consider

HIGH
SS
S
A
MID
B
C :shiek:
LOW
D
E
F

Ganon doesn't need his own tier, but personally i think it can be justified.

 

[stingers]

you're not the best ness noob

;_;

 

[Xebenkeck]

you're not the best ness noob

;_;

What is that suppose to mean? IF your comparing me to anyone who does well with ness, there is a reason i have the word n00b in my name, i don't go to tourney's. At least not ATM.

 

[stingers]

What is that suppose to mean? IF your comparing me to anyone who does well with ness, there is a reason i have the word n00b in my name, i don't go to tourney's. At least not ATM.

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=211

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Going back a fee pages with the Sheik/Zelda combining issue. They should seriously. Sheik mains need to learn Zelda and vice versa because it allows you much more versitile in MUs you would want to avoid. I'll get into it more but I'm tired lol.

 

[YagamiLight]

I really do hope that Sheik and Zelda are combined on the tier list within the next installation of the tier list.

It's becoming increasingly clear that both Sheik and Zelda, by themselves, are not exactly up to par with the baseline of the rest of the viable cast. Both Sheik and Zelda players need the other to function at a higher level of play. No matter how much the Zelda negative hype train continues, Sheik + Zelda > Sheik

 

[Purple]

What is that suppose to mean? IF your comparing me to anyone who does well with ness, there is a reason i have the word n00b in my name, i don't go to tourney's. At least not ATM.

it's just you chose a name very memorable to the atl south community.

 

[Browny]

I used to think it would be better to list sheik and zelda combined, but thats not what this list is. For all intents and purposes, Sheik and Zelda are completely different characters. different strenghts and weaknesses, thats all that matters. just because you can switch between them doesnt mean anything.

If im playing against a sheik, my character has a certain AA:BB matchup vs them. when they switch to zelda, it changes to CC:DD. You cant to any accurate extent justify an average between the two because for each and every matchup, one character may be more favourable than the other. You could say that zeldas primary job is to KO, but what if that KO is actually extremely difficult to get? You might use Zelda for 10 seconds in a match but without all those 10 you will lose, for example KO'ing snake. You cant suggest that Zelda contributes 40%, or any number to any matchup theres just way too many things to consider by ranking them together.

Eh theres too much I'm trying to say and I know it doesnt make much sense so Ill just say, unless there is a top player out there who proves that the combination, when used in almost every single matchup, is worthy of a placing in the tier list, then I see no reason to put them together. If someone places high by only using sheik in some matchups, or possibly even zelda lol, then that can mean nothing towards the relevance of that result in regards to S+Z potential.

 

[Shaya]

At this point,
"Sheik" by herself is generally considered at the "highest level possible", which may or may not include zelda usage.

Sometimes a Sheik would transform into Zelda in melee to at least attempt to recover. Should Sheik/Zelda be combined?

 

[Nefarious B]

I personally believe that even if they are small differences, having this many tiers shows which characters are actually related viability wise:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E: :shiek:
F:
G:
H:
I:

 

[KillerJawz]

I personally believe that even if they are small differences, having this many tiers shows which characters are actually related viability wise:


H:
I:

I'm glad somebody else can see Samus where she should be :/.

That aside, I believe that Zelda and Sheik combined is a good idea in SOME sense of the word, match-ups play a REAL factor in this decision, we also need to consider what purpose Zelda will serve to Sheik and vice versa, as somebody else mentioned, they are two completely different characters.

 

[Browny]

O lawd its dat tyme agen

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E: :shiek:
F:
G:
H:

Something like that? I havent put much thought into this one lol (Yes I used NB's template)

 

[Mota]

Oh yeaaa, new Tier list soon.

MLG hype taking ZSS higher? Solidifying Pika, Luigi and Ness current positions?

don't think Toon Link will rise.

 

[Mota]

Ignore this ****ing double post

 

[Shaya]

There's a new tier list soon? You guys know it's only been 3 and a half months since the last one, right?
Flippin rage.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Shaya, answer my question now.

 

[Shaya]

*gets caught*.
Repeat the question, something about how we distinguish character's viability?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Let me ask you something. What is needed to make a tier list and see how good a character is. How does one determine this in your eyes?

Get to work.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't like the way Shaya is avoiding dark.pch's question.


Unvote
Vote: Shaya

Oh yeaaa, new Tier list soon.

MLG hype taking ZSS higher? Solidifying Pika, Luigi and Ness current positions?

don't think Toon Link will rise.

Isn't it a little early to release a new tier list.

There's a new tier list soon? You guys know it's only been 3 and a half months since the last one, right?
Flippin BROOKLYN rage.

fixed

 

[Dark.Pch]

I don't like the way Shaya is avoiding dark.pch's question.


Unvote
Vote: Shaya

So does this mean I take his spot int he BBR and Shaya gets fired?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No it means that Adumbrodeus sucks at mafia.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So does this mean I take his spot int he BBR and Shaya gets fired?

Overthrowing shaya? hmmm, why not?

No it means that Adumbrodeus sucks at mafia.

lol, ok, seeing as how the only game you played with me you replaced out of, I find that assertion questionable.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Don't take me seriously if I'm obvtrollin : (

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Overthrowing shaya? hmmm, why not?



lol, ok, seeing as how the only game you played with me you replaced out of, I find that assertion questionable.

Man Adumbro, you're being really pushy on the that lynch there. Bit suspicious IMO.

Unvote; Vote: Adumbrodeus

 

[adumbrodeus]

Don't take me seriously if I'm obvtrollin : (

I wasn't, just messing with you back.


Come on man, you're supposed to launch into a diatribe about why I suck, and I'm supposed to respond, and we continue from there.

Man Adumbro, you're being really pushy on the that lynch there. Bit suspicious IMO.

Unvote; Vote: Adumbrodeus

Huh? I never said that we're supposed to lynch shaya yet, I just think he needs to answer the question and if he doesn't we should lynch him. Pressure voting, ggs.


Possible scumbuddies?









Seriously though, I'd like to hear shaya's insight on DP's question. It's an interesting useful question which we rarely find on this thread and it could launch a good discussion.

 

[Shaya]

Let me ask you something. What is needed to make a tier list and see how good a character is. How does one determine this in your eyes?

Okay.
What is needed?
It needs information. What is information? Well when it comes down to it, especially at the level of a tier list (which is an "opinion") the information we use is opinionated as well. I hope that the information that voters use is based on sound knowledge and application of their own or others, which takes into consideration the potential bias involved (*cough*pitmains*cough*). Things like frame data is a low level (in terms of building blocks) knowledge that coupled with move set design create options; through the understanding of options we make notions of match ups, and at high level thought about all this comes "viability". I can't expect everyone to understand each level (and nor can I with every character in such depth) but for the information needed to create a tier list, participants must at least have a level of knowledge of all characters in the sample they're looking at (whether that be people who are only voting on high tiers because their opinions aren't definite elsewhere). The tier list creation is by standard done by voting, and in order to make the most accurate tier list for the time I hope those who vote only do so in things they are informed about.

Viability is really abstract, and a lot of people in the BBR who are active players can be told about the things that make up the lower levels, but it won't entirely convince them until it is SEEN in an acceptable tournament environment -> theory can only go so far. I can personally see a lot of things about Peach that are great and amazing, and many people in the BBR would be aware of those things too (god bless you DP), but they would still be uncertain of how that amasses in total. A character may have an "amazing option", but what if that option is rarely applicable or potentially avoidable?

As I said the tier list is done through voting, and fortunate or not (I'd say more not) that is a prerequisite to any system used in it's creation. To make an accurate tier list, there needs to be a system to create it that will produce something "accurate" after taking into consideration the opinions of the voters.

Once upon a time, perhaps maybe around the time that I decided to take up the last tier list project, I proposed that voting would be mostly stripped up until "small samples" individual ranks. We would use the character ranking list (to determine how often/common a character would occur) and attach that with the BBR's thoughts and opinions of match ups to create a "tier list". In the same way that we can see amazing things about Peach but not be sure of the validity, taking away the highest level from the BBR as individuals to try and strengthen the levels below it had some contentions.
As an engineer I'm well aware to make a working system you start from the top and work downwards (in terms of articulation/thought/planning); but the lower levels are what equates to the higher ones indefinitely. We would only strengthen our publications by doing so. But for the time being I/whoever else runs it has to make do - and honestly I am/was pretty proud of how this tier list eventuated.

To continue on, not every individual in the BBR will be happy with what "theory" creates when making a tier list. And I doubt we'll ever be able to do so. "Viability" is required to be an opinion, not based on theory in ye ol BBR (as well as every where else, honestly)

 

[<π]

vote: shaya

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wait a second... I only breezed through the last few pages but wasn't the tier list always made through tournament results?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Shaya, I think people were looking more for your personal opinion about what made up those theoretical cornerstones as opposed to what the theoretical cornerstones themselves were.



unvote
vote: <3


Why are you hopping on the easy bandwagon without explanation?

 

[Shaya]

Mmmm... what made up those cornerstones?

"Hmm, is X character better than Y?
"Well.... I I think so"
"I THINK SO TOO!"
"AGREED! NEXT!"

Personally though I saw what the a created list from tournament results + match ups were, and my opinions didn't sway that far from it. Also the system of the last tier list was one based on "changing the previous tier list". The process involved literally taking each tier (high, middle, low) and arguing whether they should move up, down or stay around the same . This is all based on the assumption the previous tier list was accurate for that time.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ok. Reason I asked was cause you said this:

"However, ignoring individual placements (I spam this one a lot), I don't think many characters current tier position needs to change"

This plays a part in a tier list. So I don't think it should be ignored at all. Now this is how I see a tier list should be done.

Start with one character at a time (Yea even with a whole bunch of characters in the game. Tier is not to be rushed if you wanna be accruate as possible.) Learn about the character in general. All that you can about them and leave nothing out. And don't let one good/bad thing make up for the whole character to be good or bad. People do this alot with characters and it seriosly needs to end. A Good example of this is Link. Link is not all that but he is not where people seriously make him out to be. And it is dude to his recovery. And ignore everything else about him. Diddy and Falco are not all that good killers, And falco has a recovery that a smart person can force falco where to go and punish it. But they are solid characters for a reason despite of this. And this method should be taken into account with everyone else.

After that is done, check out the match ups with characters. How good are the match ups starting from high tier and going down.

Then check out tourny results and see how that character is doing. I also wanna point out that if any character does something big at a tournament once, It is nothing to get hyped about. Can they do it again? if they can do it again and not come off as getting lucky the first time, then it will seem like "ok, this character can actually do some **** intournaments this big" Thats what I feel with Nick riddle. The dude is good with his character and did well at MLG. But I am not hyped about him or ZZS for being so great as people now going on about. I wanna see it happen more. So I am not on this hype train that the others are on with him.

I always said luigi was underratted and a solid character. Luigi did well at MLG O. And I was not hype or was like "See, I told you he was underratted, and now that he did it big at MLG, my point was proven" Luigi being a good and solid character was not proven for big tournies. Let Luigi do that more often Then I'll go along with it.

Hype and bias stuff should never take into account with a tier list. Results speak for themselves and facts about the character should. Which was why I was made sick with Pit and Peach placement on this. Cause that is what it was to me. Pit went up dude to EC hype and Peach stood the same cause.........."I just don't know" Is what I got. And Peach has done better then Pit in tourny for that time.

That's how I see it and how things should be done. Leave the hype and bias stuff out. It does nothing but lead to false claims and BS info/results.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Lol, more how do you define the opinion-based constructs, like for example, viability.

 

[Shaya]

I think you missed my point DP...

If a character is in the same tier as someone else, their placement difference should ideally either be relatively NIL or so small that there shouldn't be

OMG MY CHARACTER IS 11TH AND YOURS IS 14TH BUT ARE IN THE SAME TIER AS ME, OMG YOUR CHARACTER SUCKS MINE IS BETTER LOLOLOL.

My thought on tier lists are that the tiers themselves matter more than the rankings from 1-X.

You're ignorant and bias about why people believe Link is a bad character. Maybe you ignored my recent post stating how he is fail? You do this quite a lot. If someone in the BBR points out that a character is over/under positioned they will make a case that will most likely be listened to. In the case of Zelda people are like "wait a moment guys, don't just leave her where she is, this character is actually VERY VERY BAD". A tier list is continuation and a steady progression, this is true for all tier lists thus far, my system promoted the notion of continuation. Characters need to have their viability gauged through example and theory and not have biased representation (hurr pit mains) and have that ideal pitted and compared against other characters.

You can't have a perfect tier list from the get go. Link is genuinely a bad character no matter how much you want to argue that you think EVERYONE ELSE believes he's bad only because of his recovery. And until he is able to be shown otherwise (through theory or use) he isn't going to really be moving.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think you missed my point DP...

If a character is in the same tier as someone else, their placement difference should ideally either be relatively NIL or so small that there shouldn't be

OMG MY CHARACTER IS 11TH AND YOURS IS 14TH BUT ARE IN THE SAME TIER AS ME, OMG YOUR CHARACTER SUCKS MINE IS BETTER LOLOLOL.

My thought on tier lists are that the tiers themselves matter more than the rankings from 1-X.

You're ignorant and bias about why people believe Link is a bad character. Maybe you ignored my recent post stating how he is fail? You do this quite a lot. If someone in the BBR points out that a character is over/under positioned they will make a case that will most likely be listened to. In the case of Zelda people are like "wait a moment guys, don't just leave her where she is, this character is actually VERY VERY BAD". A tier list is continuation and a steady progression, this is true for all tier lists thus far, my system promoted the notion of continuation. Characters need to have their viability gauged through example and theory and not have biased representation (hurr pit mains) and have that ideal pitted and compared against other characters.

You can't have a perfect tier list from the get go. Link is genuinely a bad character no matter how much you want to argue that you think EVERYONE ELSE believes he's bad only because of his recovery. And until he is able to be shown otherwise (through theory or use) he isn't going to really be moving.

I did not miss your point. All I did was explain how I think it should be done and what I been seeing/hearing. Thats it.

Also, I never said Link was some beast character. Nor that he is not a bad character. I simply said Link is not as bad as people make him out to be. And for this you think I am ingorant and bias. Do you realize it can be said for you?

Also, quit with the insults. I have not insulted you and kept it cool with this topic. So show the same respect.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*pokes head in*

If a character is in the same tier as someone else, their placement difference should ideally either be relatively NIL or so small that there shouldn't be

OMG MY CHARACTER IS 11TH AND YOURS IS 14TH BUT ARE IN THE SAME TIER AS ME, OMG YOUR CHARACTER SUCKS MINE IS BETTER LOLOLOL.

My thought on tier lists are that the tiers themselves matter more than the rankings from 1-X.

However, that is exactly how most people will use the tier lists: down to the exact number. That's what you do with tier lists really: you get that precise. If you're not going to do that, you might as well just put them in alphabetical order within three tiers: Top, Mid, and Low.

If you break it down to levels within Top, Mid, and Low, you need to make it perfectly precise. You can't just go "Well, these characters are all in E tier, throw them in a semi-random order within there" Otherwise you will have people questioning their character's placement to that level of preciseness, and you won't be able to answer their questions. People will want to know "Why is X placed over Y in E tier?!", and will not take "X just is." or something similar as an answer. You basically need to be able to pull up a summery from the BBR for character X, and be able to throw it at the people questioning the placement. Something like: "Character X is above Character Y due to a superior gimping game, and a more usable projectile, which places him above Character Y's well known boxing game. However, Character Z is above Character X due to having superior tournament results, and a little bit more range.", but going into even more detail. It also makes the tier list look less reliable if it's not that precise. People will see odd character rankings within letter levels of the tier and be like "lol wut?" constantly.

 

[Shaya]

Just because "some people" don't know why (whether they be individuals in the bbr or not) doesn't mean others aren't fully aware of why he is bad either. I say ignorant because your posts tend to assume "everyone"; when I use the word ignorant I don't generally mean it as an insult though, I guess in this case the word naive was more appropriate, but would you consider that an insult too? In the BBR if a character is over/under rated in a tier list voting process, someone will bring it up. The "Pit anomaly" came in the LAST stage of the voting process and was something unexpected and annoying.

As I'll reiterate, tier lists are a steady progression towards accuracy. Link started low - and hasn't gone anywhere since either in proving himself able to handle his weaknesses or having many strengths he can abuse either.

Bolded above covers you Nid. The characters in each tier were "ordered" though by the averaging of people's thoughts, they're 'ordered' by that extremely small margin that was the differentiation in people's opinions. However I generally consider one character in a tier as viable as nearly any other from B tier downwards. Because it is steady progression it isn't necessarily clear as day "X is better than Y", it's more "there is currently known more about X that points to him being considered 'better'".

There are many think-tanks in the BBR who are generally well versed in information about many characters. Discussions are always there in tier lists if someone who "knows" feels the voting is going in a direction they believe is wrong.

 

[Purple]

I don't know why I come to this thread sometimes. In the end our conversations don't really change much, especially since most of us are biased to our character. What's with people being biased to characters they don't even play anyways?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Not everyone thinks link is as bad as it shows on the tier list. So if you think I am assuming "everyone" you are wrong. This only goes to the people that think link is this bad. As for me being naive and bias, the same could be said for you. I hope you realize that. Which in this case, it goes in circles.

 

[Shaya]

Of course I can be naive and biased, but that's why I don't solely decide the tier list

If anyone went into an argument during the creation of a tier list going:
"guys, Link isn't that bad, people are just underrating him because they over think his weakness of a bad recovery!"
and then everyone else will go "okay, so why isn't link that bad?"
and that person's reply is "well, I don't know, I'm just assuming you guys don't know enough about him!"

then things go no where. It still doesn't change a person's opinion on a character's viability.