The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Chuee]

Lucas is not so bad, really. He has some good, lagless KO moves as well as a few good aerials that lead into other things. Also an applicable dtilt lock.

This, except that his smashes aren't exactly "lagless".

 

[Kofu]

FSmash is pretty dang fast and has some good kill power to boot. :V

 

[Chuee]

Its semi-fast (14 frames) but it has some ending lag.

 

[Kofu]

I'm comparing it to Ness's in terms of start-up.

It's the only one of Lucas's moves I wish Ness had. Its speed, at least.

 

[Chuee]

I wish Ness had Lucas' Dair.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ness is tied with lucas as the exact middle in weight, here's the list if you dont believe me:

1. Bowser
2. Donkey Kong
3. Snake
4. King Dedede
5. Charizard
6. Ganondorf
7. Samus
8. Yoshi (Tied)
8. Wario (Tied)
10. R.O.B.
11. Ike
12. Captain Falcon (Tied)
12. Link (Tied)
14. Wolf
15. Lucario (Tied)
15. Ivysaur (Tied)
17. Mario
18. Luigi
19. Sonic
20. Ness (Tied)
20. Lucas (Tied)
22. Pit
23. Diddy Kong
24. Ice Climbers (Tied)
24. Toon Link (Tied)
26. Peach
27. Marth
28. Sheik (Tied)
28. Zelda (Tied)
30. Falco (Tied)
30. Olimar (Tied)
32. Zero Suit Samus
33. Fox
34. Meta Knight (Tied)
34. Pikachu (Tied)
36. Kirby
37. Mr. Game & Watch (Tied)
37. Squirtle (Tied)
39. Jigglypuff

Here's the actual list if you dont believe this: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight

And I never said anything about him holding stocks or anything, just that he's the exact middle in weight

 

[Purple]

I don't think you really got my point here :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

I understand what you mean, but Im just saying that he isnt a light weight. IMO he just seems that way due to his recovery

 

[Espy Rose]

But Chuee, then Shaky's 0-death on Judge at Columbus on Brinstar would've never happened.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I like ness's current dair, it suits him well

 

[Shaya]

Errr, you want to know why Link is bad?

He has no real out of shield options.
His shield is almost as bad as Yoshis because of this (well, the entirety of Bottom Tier has the same TERRIBLE oos issue [Zelda has usmash oos though])
He has an amazing spot dodge, but this doesn't cover the weakness what so ever.

His fastest move is jab, which is 7 frames.
His grab is slower iirc (16 frames?)
His jump has bad start up and his "forward facing" aerials (nair/fair) don't have the convenient hitboxes, nor does he have the aerial mobility to use them punish or to do... much.. at all.

tl;dr Hi, my name is any character, I have a move which if you include shield stun has less than 14 frames of cool down. I just ***** link's life.

 

[Z'zgashi]

So you could basically just jab his shield over and over until it either shield pokes, he drops it, or it breaks?

 

[Kofu]

tl;dr Hi, my name is any character, I have a move which if you include shield stun has less than 14 frames of cool down. I just ***** link's life.

This is basically Ganon.
Yet people still win with both characters.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well ganon has his jab and shield grab (if you are stupid enough to be that close lol) but yeah him to i guess

 

[Kofu]

Ganon has the smallest grab range in the game
And he's easier to juggle than Link is.

 

[Kole]

Ness is tied with lucas as the exact middle in weight, here's the list if you dont believe me:

1. Bowser
2. Donkey Kong
3. Snake
4. King Dedede
5. Charizard
6. Ganondorf
7. Samus
8. Yoshi (Tied)
8. Wario (Tied)
10. R.O.B.
11. Ike
12. Captain Falcon (Tied)
12. Link (Tied)
14. Wolf
15. Lucario (Tied)
15. Ivysaur (Tied)
17. Mario
18. Luigi
19. Sonic
20. Ness (Tied)
20. Lucas (Tied)
22. Pit
23. Diddy Kong
24. Ice Climbers (Tied)
24. Toon Link (Tied)
26. Peach
27. Marth
28. Sheik (Tied)
28. Zelda (Tied)
30. Falco (Tied)
30. Olimar (Tied)
32. Zero Suit Samus
33. Fox
34. Meta Knight (Tied)
34. Pikachu (Tied)
36. Kirby
37. Mr. Game & Watch (Tied)
37. Squirtle (Tied)
39. Jigglypuff

Here's the actual list if you dont believe this: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight

And I never said anything about him holding stocks or anything, just that he's the exact middle in weight

Oh, I was using a different reference where they were like 23-24ish.

 

[Shaya]

Link has to roll or GET CHANCE AND LUCK with a spot dodge.
A character who's options are limited to three (roll back, spot dodge, keep shielding) is in a lot of trouble.
Especially as link's rolls aren't exactly helpful either, and against some characters remaining in shield = nothing.

Marth can dtilt once, then dtilt again. Now the second dtilt on him if Link is mashing that grab button will "just make it out" but it may whiff him before Link gets hit.
How amazing is that?

And no, you can't keep jabbing him until his shield breaks. But a good poke like Falco's jab in close quarters will give him a lot of things to worry about.

 

[Luigi player]

Lucas is not so bad, really. He has some good, lagless KO moves as well as a few good aerials that lead into other things. Also an applicable dtilt lock.

Lucas aint that bad, but lagless KO moves..? Imo KOing is one of his worst problems. If he tries to hit you with a KO move you can easily shield it and punish him, because they're nowhere near lagless. Even if you don't powershield his fsmash most of the time you should be able to punish him with a grab or something (of course this is character depandant...). The best thing he can do against a shielding opponent if he wants to KO him is a full jump dair, maybe nair too, but both don't KO (and you can easily SDI dairs hits up to not get spiked into the ground for a lock). His grab sucks too much so he really has problems against shielding opponents, and his dthrow won't KO most chars under 150 % (Diddy can survive at those %s).

He is really strong if he manages to hit with his smashes (fsmash mostly, sometimes he might be able to hit you with a mindgamed usmash or something), but most of the time you won't get hit by them and be able to punish him for it.

Uair and maybe even fair might be his best KO moves, lol. But they should usually start KOing at 155+ and aren't that hard to avoid too... :\

 

[dainbramage]

Link has to roll or GET CHANCE AND LUCK with a spot dodge.
A character who's options are limited to three (roll back, spot dodge, keep shielding) is in a lot of trouble.
Especially as link's rolls aren't exactly helpful either, and against some characters remaining in shield = nothing.

Marth can dtilt once, then dtilt again. Now the second dtilt on him if Link is mashing that grab button will "just make it out" but it may whiff him before Link gets hit.
How amazing is that?

And no, you can't keep jabbing him until his shield breaks. But a good poke like Falco's jab in close quarters will give him a lot of things to worry about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bob3QsAGWE

 

[Shaya]

Dat dolphin slash!
You coming to the tournament this sunday?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The entirety of Bottom Tier has the same TERRIBLE oos issue [Zelda has usmash oos though].

Mario and Samus have good OoS options.



My personal tier list - inb4"bias"

S+:

S: ( )

A: ( ) ( )

B: + :shiek:

C:

D: ( )

E:

F:

Brackets mean it's too close for me to make a difference.

 

[Yikarur]

Bowser is so bad he doesn't even appear in your list.

E: it's fix'd :D

 

[C~Dog]

Mario and Samus have good OoS options.

He said Bottom Tier, not Low Tier. Bottom Tier is Trifail Tier.

EDIT: Do unto others.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lucas is not so bad, really. He has some good, lagless KO moves as well as a few good aerials that lead into other things. Also an applicable dtilt lock.

you are officially awesome. You get cool points for knowing Lucas. Nair can combo into Jab or Utilt for leading into other things.

Lucas has good KO moves it's actually the thing he is really good at is early KOs due to powerful smashes *hence why he is the punisher/stock tank in teams*. Fsmash is the best cuz it's powerful and quite fast. Fsmash really isn't laggy but Usmash is a "...yup" and Dsmash is in between those two in terms of lag.

In teams if you say Ness/Lucas aren't good stock tanks and the reason is because of weight then that is highly mistaken xD. The reason they are good is because of the PSIM. Lucas/Ness are possible the best stock tanks but im biased a bit and have been studying these two alot soo yea.

Anyways im gonna submit one of my tier lists because why not.

J's tier list (meh the only really big change is mid tier)

S:
A:
B:
C:
D: /:shiek:
E: <-- *still considered low tier though*
F:
G:

yes it's biased a bit (but i like it x3)

 

[Chuee]

^
Ness too high.
Put him below PT & Sonic........wait why is Bowser so low ._.
@Gheb: lol at Lucas being 5th worst and Bowser 3rd worst.

Oh, and Fsmash. Thats why you read them and punish with Fsmash.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Let me try once more:

S:
A:
B:
C: :shiek:/
D:
E:

For reference:
S is overpowered
A is very much viable
B is viable
C is sorta viable
D is can place high
E is filler, lulz.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lemme try

S:
A:
B:
C:
D: :shiek:
E:
F:

 

[Chuee]

Ness still too high =/

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Errr, you want to know why Link is bad?

He has no real out of shield options.
His shield is almost as bad as Yoshis because of this (well, the entirety of Bottom Tier has the same TERRIBLE oos issue [Zelda has usmash oos though])
He has an amazing spot dodge, but this doesn't cover the weakness what so ever.

His fastest move is jab, which is 7 frames.
His grab is slower iirc (16 frames?)
His jump has bad start up and his "forward facing" aerials (nair/fair) don't have the convenient hitboxes, nor does he have the aerial mobility to use them punish or to do... much.. at all.

tl;dr Hi, my name is any character, I have a move which if you include shield stun has less than 14 frames of cool down. I just ***** link's life.

Thank you. I'm glad it's so obvious to you, too.

I didn't have the frame data, so I didn't know how to explain it as well, but I knew his jump startup is bad, and I actually thought his jab came out on frame 6. He's EVEN WORSE than I thought!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

@Chuee: You're just salty that a Ness was able to place higher than you did at MLG.

 

[Chuee]

lol nah, PT Bowser & Sonic are just better than Ness.
BTW you didn't put Sonic on that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh, oh, it's tier list time again? :D

S:
A:
B:
C:
D: :shiek:
E: <- Optional tier for low tier tournaments
F:
G:

Characters I believe could rise if they actually had a thing called "tournament results": Bowser, Mario, Link, Jigglypuff

 

[Dark.Pch]

I wanna point out to some that made your tier list that Peach is not better than Toon Link.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm bias towards Toon Link due to playing against Jerm before/watching Santi play before in person. Toon Link can be freaking scary in the right hands. I haven't seen that nearly as much with Peach yet.

 

[Chuee]

Oh, oh, it's tier list time again? :D

S:
A:
B:
C:
D: :shiek:
E: <- Optional tier for low tier tournaments
F:
G:

Characters I believe could rise if they actually had a thing called "tournament results": Bowser, Mario, Link, Jigglypuff, Lucas

Fixed.

Oh, and mine
S:
A:
B:
C: (just for you Niddo)
D: :shiek:
E:
F:
G:
I suck tier:

S- Wins tourneys most often
A- Wins tourneys a lot
B- Wins tourneys every once in awhile
C- Wins tourneys once in a blue moon
D- Shouldn't be winning tourneys
E- Wins tourneys when the opponents suck ****
F- Wins tourneys at the local gamestop
G- Wishes they could win tourneys
I suck tier- Can't even win tourneys in their dreams

 

[Kewkky]

Everyone who places kirby in the 20's.... Obviously doesn't know much about competitive Smash. : |

I'm just throwing it out here. I've never seen that before until right now. What in the world is the reason for putting Kirby that low for you guys? His spot is around where he is right now: bottom of high, top of mid.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A) That list was for significant rise. Not one or two spots. Lucas can't rise that much.

B) Ever guessed if 3 people in a row have put PT, Sonic, and Bowser all below Ness that *gasp* that's what most people believe?

 

[Kewkky]

B) Ever guessed if 3 people in a row have put PT, Sonic, and Bowser all below Ness that *gasp* that's what most people believe?

Well to tell you the truth, those same people are placing ZSS quite high... I think they're just following the MLG hype train, nothing more.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well to tell you the truth, those same people are placing ZSS quite high... I think they're just following the MLG hype train, nothing more.

*points to my previous posts about this a few pages back*

Kinda needs to happen.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Chueee:

Ness is underrated if anything IMO. Even if he's a gimmicky one-trick pony that is easy to figure out and beat, that's more than be said for much of low tier which is just like "lol hit them until they die and avoid 8 frame moves."

And lol at everyone putting ZSS in high tier all of the sudden. Gheb, I think you have her too high. Kewkky, some of htese guys don't have her much higher than she is right now, they just have her up a tier or a few spots.

Also, Niddo is right. These tier lists are (and have been for some time) based on hype trains. ZSS is as good as anyone else in the current B tier though even without the MLG placing and hype train.

S: MK
A: Snake, Falco, Diddy, Wario
B: Marth, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Dedede, ZSS, Olimar, Lucario, Toon Link
C: Peach, Game and Watch, Fox, Pit, Kirby
D: R.O.B., Luigi, DK, Wolf, Ike, Ness
E: PT, Sonic, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link
F: Sheik, Yoshi, Mario, Samus, Zelda, Jiggs
G: Lucas, Ganondorf

Beyond like B tier I'm not really considering the order, just what group they're in. So I don't really care if like, Sheik worse than Mario or something.