The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[CaliburChamp]

Mario and Luigi get ***** by high tiers like Snake and Metaknight, are you kidding me? At least luigi can kill the characters at lower percents, same with Ike. I really hope you aren't being serious about Boss's Mario beating high level MKs. Mario has the tools to beat most of mid tier, until he gets to characters that can outspace him, then he gets *****. Ike has the ability to outspace characters, and has matchups that are relatively manageable in the A tier section (Snake in particular).

Until Boss plays those people, then we can't say Ike is ~= Mario.

By the way, Ness is still considered low tier for low tier tournaments, just because he's mid tier in the tier list, doesn't mean he's mid tier in the eyes of BBR. He's good enough to stand out from low tiers, however not good enough to compete with mids.

Ike has more of an advantage on Snake than Mario, but other than that it's mostly the same. Mario can easily gimp some characters with his cape. Mario also has a better projectile and is overall faster than Ike. Ness is definitely good enough to compete with middle tiers. lol. Especially if Shaky Ness can beat good MK's. It's kind of crazy for you to say that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's pretty dumb. If the rest of Ike's players aren't doing anything extraordinary for Ike, it makes more sense to attribute it to Reflex/San's ability.

That's what I argued for the entire Tier List Topic 3.

I was reward with PT moving up even more for the same reason.

BBR's rules. *shrugs* Ike needs to move up, unless they want to appear obviously bias.

 

[Ussi]

San isn't the only Ike there is either, Texas has quite a few good Ike mains.

 

[Dark.Pch]

WHat are the chances of them playing a peach ditto in tournament? Shouldnt' they be learning other MUs just as much as they need to fix their habits?

You don't get it. I don't ditto people just so they can learn the ditto match up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

San isn't the only Ike there is either, Texas is filled with good Ike mains.

And then there is Mr.Doom, who should be at MLG Dallas. He's mad good, particularly his SDI. SDI's MK's Uair so he was way out of range for the Uair chain.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Peach players should definitely be able to place at least as high like Shaky and San did with their characters. I think Kyon's Peach has the potential to do this. Picking up bomb's and beam swords is overpowered, but luck of the draw plays a part of that.

 

[Yink]

By the way, Ness is still considered low tier for low tier tournaments, just because he's mid tier in the tier list, doesn't mean he's mid tier in the eyes of BBR. He's good enough to stand out from low tiers, however not good enough to compete with mids.

*pops in!* My two cents:

There are characters on this tier list that should technically be fluctuating a lot. When something noticeable happens, like a low tier placing high it increases the chances of them going up and thus becoming more viable. Saying Ness is not good enough to deal with mid tiers seems pretty wrong. I don't like to pick one player but obviously Shaky got 10th and MLG Colombus, and IIRC he did well at MLG Orlando too. He can do pretty well against mid and high tiers.

It's not all Shaky, it's part Ness too (though he really understands Ness and how to fight others). Ness has his bad flaws but I think he'd be good enough to be fairly mid tier.

 

[Chuee]

Nah Ness is still low tier.
The only reason he's low tier on the recent tier list is because they made mid tier a bit larger than on the last list.
When you figure Ness out he's a pretty bad character its just that hardly anyone knows how to fight him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nah Ness is still low tier.
The only reason he's low tier on the recent tier list is because they made mid tier a bit larger than on the last list.
When you figure Ness out he's a pretty bad character its just that hardly anyone knows how to fight him.

*pst*

When a character places very high in MLG, a tournament where pros from all over go to: that excuse is officially shot to pieces.

Ness is a much better character than say Lucas, as proved by Lucas being basically a no show/irrelevant due to low placings when it came to MLG.

 

[Kofu]

I personally think the idea of an exact tier list is stupid; the fluctuation that Yink mentioned would fit much better.

Say, make a 100 point scale and give characters a variable margin of where they could be on the tier list.

I also think that Ness is a pretty good character though so eh.

 

[Chuee]

*pst*

When a character places very high in MLG, a tournament where pros from all over go to: that excuse is officially shot to pieces.

Ness is a much better character than say Lucas, as proved by Lucas being basically a no show/irrelevant due to low placings when it came to MLG.

lol no it's not.
I was there. I watched every single one of Shaky's matches. There were 2 were it came down to last hit last stock last game. Then Blizkit. He clearly never played a Ness before. He ran into so much dumb ****. Don't think I saw him against tearbear. I saw him against Tyrant though. Tyrant knew the MU really well and he shut down Shaky easily.

Also lol at Ness being so much better than Lucas because of MLG. The best Lucas wasn't even at MLG LOL.
Stop trolling scrub.

 

[Kole]

Nah Ness is still low tier.
The only reason he's low tier on the recent tier list is because they made mid tier a bit larger than on the last list.
When you figure Ness out he's a pretty bad character its just that hardly anyone knows how to fight him.

This is pretty similar to your post in my blog on AllisBrawl, so I'll copy + paste ViceGrip's response to that.


ViceGrip wrote at 9:35 PM on Jun 6, 2010 :
@ chuee At a tournament a month ago I went 1-2 vs Tyrant and just barely lost in the 3rd game : (. Ness is decent vs meta, I don't believe it's about them 'not knowing the matchup.' Seibrik plays Shaky all the time and look what happened. Unless you think Seibrik is incapable of learning a matchup that he plays on a frequent basis then eh.

 

[YagamiLight]

l at Ness being so much better than Lucas because of MLG. The best Lucas wasn't even at MLG LOL.
Stop trolling scrub.

Looks like it's time for my favorite Lucas john!

"We have good players and would have good representation, honest! Our best players just don't go to tournaments!"

 

[stingers]

who is the best lucas? ninjalink?

 

[Conviction]

Looks like it's time for my favorite Lucas fanatic/advocate!

"Lucas doesn't do bad vs. MK!"

I fixed it for you

 

[Chuee]

Just because he plays Shaky frequently doesn't mean he's automatically good at the MU.

EDIT: Best Lucas is Pink Fresh. He doesn't go to tournies frequently though. He might go to raleigh, so we'll see then.
Oh, and Iblis I wouldn't be talking. It's not like you don't overrate Fox.

 

[Kole]

who is the best lucas? ninjalink?

Pink Fresh, then probably NinjaLink I guess


@Chuee: How do players learn matchups other than playing said matchups often then?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Looks like it's time for my favorite Lucas john!

"We have good players and would have good representation, honest! Our best players just don't go to tournaments!"

Oh oh oh, what about "He's just underrated and everyone is too busy falling for the Ness hype!"? I mean, that's a fairly close representation of what he's saying.

There is also "The other Lucas mains agree with me! Except they only do so through PMs. Oh, and the person in charge of our MUs? Nobody agrees with him, but we're all too lazy to make our own MU topic and fix the MUs if they are wrong."

And then of course there is the reaction of "Oh shoot, I'm losing this argument...quick, call him a troll, surely that proves me right!"

 

[Chuee]

LOL you are a troll Niddo. You come in here talking like you know everything about the characers when you're some Ike main.

@Proxy: You learn MU's by learning what you can do to said characters. Like learning what you can do to Ness out of GR.

 

[Kole]

hey let's all flame people

@Chuee: Well, how do you learn what you can do against characters and what works against them? Theorycrafting, or having experience playing that character?

 

[Chuee]

Like Niddo because thats what he's best at.
EDIT: Just because Seibrik's played Shaky's Ness with MK a few times doesn't mean he knows the MU really well.

 

[Conviction]

Just because he plays Shaky frequently doesn't mean he's automatically good at the MU.

EDIT: Best Lucas is Pink Fresh. He doesn't go to tournies frequently though. He might go to raleigh, so we'll see then.
Oh, and Iblis I wouldn't be talking. It's not like you don't overrate Fox.

Lol there worse people than me. Plus usually when I talk for Fox the whole boards doesn't go against me and I look stupid

 

[Chuee]

lol when I talk Lucas my boards don't go against me, you guys just think they do because 2 players said they disagreed and then one of them said they agreed with me in the BR lol.
Oh, and when the **** did I say Lucas does "good" against mk.
60-40 at least isn't good, it's just better than most characters.

 

[Conviction]

I wasn't talking about the Lucas boards specifically. lol
You said it some where is this thread. I don't feel like looking.

 

[Chuee]

Said what?

 

[SnackAttack]

Chuee talks so much on the boards but not at all irl.

Go Figure.

 

[Kole]

Like Niddo because thats what he's best at.
EDIT: Just because Seibrik's played Shaky's Ness with MK a few times doesn't mean he knows the MU really well.

I'd say more than a few times, considering they're both top players in the same region. i heard that they even played in tourney the week before C-Bus.

So exactly what do you think it takes to know a matchup? (at least not be completely ignorant about it)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

LOL you are a troll Niddo. You come in here talking like you know everything about the characers when you're some Ike main.

Besides the fact this is incorrect and I basically never say anything about higher tiered characters: nice job ignoring the other stuff and just picking on the one line dude. You're out of steam for arguments aren't ya? Ness is better than low tier. It has been proven. MLG is the final bit of info needed.

Nobody cares about what you all say in the Lucas BR, PMs, or w/e dude. That isn't here, where the discussion is actually taking place. Nobody supported you here, support in other places is irrelevant.

Come on now, let's see another comment about how I'm a troll. Really, it's rather entertaining seeing you be the only person on your side of the argument so many times, throwing a hissy fit at me specifically. Yes I bait you. It's easy to do, you always react. But trolling? Nah. You don't start trolling until you don't even respond to any actual arguments brought up. Or your start posting one liners, take your pick.

 

[Chuee]

Ok Niddo.
I guess that MLG proves also that Ike isn't low tier.
Just because one player places well at a national with a low tier doesn't mean that the character isn't low tier. It just means that the player is really good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I didn't even mention Ike yet. I was talking about Ness the whole time. And you just said the argument I repeated constantly for the entire tier list 3 topic while arguing that PT didn't have a good reason to rise, with everyone saying otherwise.

Suddenly, if it's a character people don't think should be mid-tier, they are all for that argument. No, it shouldn't happen, but it's the system BBR has used. They're locked into it now. I'm actually finding this all rather funny. My own argument is being quoted back to me almost word for word! :D Heck, I think I might have said that this would happen if Ike was to end up with a "Reflex like situation", but that would take some digging to prove.

 

[Kewkky]

So exactly what do you think it takes to know a matchup? (at least not be completely ignorant about it)

I want to answer this question, but since it was directed at Chuee, I'm now very interested in what his in-depth opinion of what constitutes 'knowing a matchup' is gonna be.

If he never answers, I will eventually if you bring it up again.

 

[Chuee]

Knowing a MU? You have to know what the other characters weakness' are and how your character can capitalize on those weakness', vice versa. You need to know which moves outrange which moves. You need to know the frame data on each of their moves and what you can punish them on with block.
There's a loooooooooooooooooooot of things that go into MU's thats just some of it.

 

[Kole]

so is experience not a major factor?

 

[Purple]

*pops in!* My two cents:

There are characters on this tier list that should technically be fluctuating a lot. When something noticeable happens, like a low tier placing high it increases the chances of them going up and thus becoming more viable. Saying Ness is not good enough to deal with mid tiers seems pretty wrong. I don't like to pick one player but obviously Shaky got 10th and MLG Colombus, and IIRC he did well at MLG Orlando too. He can do pretty well against mid and high tiers.

It's not all Shaky, it's part Ness too (though he really understands Ness and how to fight others). Ness has his bad flaws but I think he'd be good enough to be fairly mid tier.

You have to understand though, that during these placings, there is no way for any player to play all 37 characters in bracket, lol.

 

[Chuee]

so is experience not a major factor?

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
For instance, M2K has plenty of experience in the Diddy MU yet he's still bad at it.
@Roxy: Ya, I had to face Cheese round 2 losers who went DK and infinited me. Unlucky me.

 

[M@v]

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
For instance, M2K has plenty of experience in the Diddy MU yet he's still bad at it.
@Roxy: Ya, I had to face Cheese round 2 losers who went DK and infinited me. Unlucky me.

I never knew that only losing to 1 person who happens to be the best at the character by far is considered being bad at the MU.




Experience vs many opponents the biggest factor in "knowing a matchup" by leaps and bounds.

Next in line is if a lot of that experience comes from players who are considered good with the character.

 

[adumbrodeus]

BBR's rules. *shrugs* Ike needs to move up, unless they want to appear obviously bias.

Since when? I never agreed to this!


Revolution time!



Seriously though, tournament results are only part of it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seriously though, tournament results are only part of it.

Not picking on you specifically but: That is most likely the excuse we'll be given when Ike moves up like one spot, if at all.

Alright then: what was the other reason for PT moving up twice in a row now? Both times, I was told that it was specifically because of Reflex. Same with Falcon and Allly.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, instead of looking at "PT is getting 1st because of Reflex", look at it from the "Reflex is beating other people with PT, whom we thought wouldn't be able to do this consistently, and he is" perspective.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not picking on you specifically but: That is most likely the excuse we'll be given when Ike moves up like one spot, if at all.

Alright then: what was the other reason for PT moving up twice in a row now? Both times, I was told that it was specifically because of Reflex. Same with Falcon and Allly.

Excuse? Hardly.


I still think PT is overrated (haven't you seem me support you on this), but Falcon's move up accompanied a legit change in understanding of the metagame, specifically that ground speed is extremely powerful, and running shield is amazing (especially if you have high ground speed).

I don't fully agree with it, but it's defendable.