The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[SnackAttack]

Chuee talks so much on the boards but not at all irl.

Go Figure.

10charsuggs

 

[Purple]

Ike has more of an advantage on Snake than Mario, but other than that it's mostly the same. Mario can easily gimp some characters with his cape. Mario also has a better projectile and is overall faster than Ike. Ness is definitely good enough to compete with middle tiers. lol. Especially if Shaky Ness can beat good MK's. It's kind of crazy for you to say that.

Not really, mid tiers usually have a form of gameplay that's very solid, something that can help them compete decently against high tiers albeit not able to be abused. Ness has the same thing, however his spacing game isn't as good as DK's, his aerial maneuverability isn't as good as jiggs (granted she's light as all hell), he's a lighter character, and he gets outspaced by anyone who has a sword.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
For instance, M2K has plenty of experience in the Diddy MU yet he's still bad at it.
@Roxy: Ya, I had to face Cheese round 2 losers who went DK and infinited me. Unlucky me.

Knowing a MU doesn't mean you'll win a MU consistently, I'm quite sure that M2K destroys plenty of Diddys just off of knowing the MU alone. It also matters how smart the opponent is. Some MUs (MK : CF) get just as simple as space your f-airs very well and you shouldn't lose, and people still lose matches to Ally's CF (lain)

You don't get it. I don't ditto people just so they can learn the ditto match up.

No, I get it, you're teaching how to be better Peach players.

 

[Chuee]

Knowing a MU doesn't mean you'll win a MU consistently, I'm quite sure that M2K destroys plenty of Diddys just off of knowing the MU alone. It also matters how smart the opponent is. Some MUs (MK : CF) get just as simple as space your f-airs very well and you shouldn't lose, and people still lose matches to Ally's CF (lain)

Wat, M2K doesn't know the Diddy MU. He may beat mediocre Diddy players but top Diddy's will beat him. He even said in the interview after Columbus that he was afraid he would have to fight Gnes in bracket, and Gnes said that he would probably have beaten M2K if they faced.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think bringing up lain in that regard is a liability when you consider how much illicit contraband he put in his body before the tournament

 

[Kewkky]

"Knowing an MU" is really up to people's own judgment, but overall, it DEFINITELY consists of knowing:

*the opponent's kill options and setups
*the opponent's maximum range for each attack.
*the speed of the opponent's attacks (is there enough time to attack between hits?, how fast is it?, can he hit you reliably if you pressure his shield?, etc)
*the opponent's inherent character traits (ground speed, aerial speed, weight, jump height, aerial maneuverability, etc)
*the opponent's inherent character weaknesses (shield camping, projectile camping, outranging them with disjoints, landing penalties [such as grabbing them when they're landing, then throwing them back up], never giving them a breather ['going aggro'], easily gimpable, etc)
*the opponent's character-specific tricks (0>deaths, combos, chaingrabs, infinites, item game, etc)
*your character's specific tricks against your opponents (same as above)
*what directional inputs you'll have to do when DI'ing/SDI'ing, what you can tech and when
*what to do in offstage scenarios (edgeguarding, recovering, gimping)
*counterpicks against the opponent (stages and characters)
*experience against different playstyles (this IS part of 'knowing the MU'... There's only so much you can learn from fighting a single mainer or two)

As long as you have all of this under control, you shouldn't be having problems against the character unless either your opponent is better than you, or your opponent's character has an advantage over yours and he knows the MU as well.

 

[smashkng]

Link is a mid tier character with terrible recovery and is really dependant on how well you can space honestly his spacing demand is comparable to marths. However he isn't exceptional and his recovery is pretty bad

Lol at saying Link is mid tier. Link has a lot of crippling weaknesses that aren't recovery.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Lol at saying Link is mid tier. Link has a lot of crippling weaknesses that aren't recovery.

Is that right? Care to explain what they are?

 

[Kofu]

Mostly just slow moves, I think. He's got good range and hits hard.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually, I don't think Link's recovery is really all that terrible. I think Zelda's for instance is probably a lot worse. There's more to recovery than the distance provided by your character's up+b, lol. It's definitely some of the worst in the game, but not THE worst as is often said. Link lives to ludicrously high percents with good DI and recovery habits. The vertical distance traveled between his second jump and up+b is actually more than respectable. His projectile game off-stage makes actually gimping him difficult unless you play MK.

Link's on-stage game is really very good. He has a solid ground game, a great short-hop with good aerials, an underrated projectile game (better than Samus', at the very least), a godly zair, and a plethora of (admittedly very average) options.

There are bad things about Link certainly, but most of them are pretty character-specific. It's way too easy to counterpick Link; Falco, MK, Dedede, etc. Link is chock full of inconvenient match-ups that hurt is viability. He isn't good, but I wish people would try to keep up with what makes him mediocre as a character instead of just saying the stuff that hasn't been valid for a year or more. For instance, his moves tend to have a lot of ending lag, and his physics turn him into something that is pretty easy to CP, but no one really talks about that. It's just "lolupb"

Link is believable as a mid tier character, and I believe he is better than most of low tier, and Sheik (who is strongly overrated, IMO). Get us a few more Legans and you'd see why.

 

[Purple]

Link has good qualities, however, tell me who's worse than him please.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link has good qualities, however, tell me who's worse than him please.

Like everyone in low tier, except Ike?

 

[Chuee]

Like everyone in low tier, except Ike?

lolno
10nos

EDIT: Oh and at your last line 2 posts ago Paris.
Get us a few more Ally's and you'll see why Falcon is mid tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lolno
10nos

EDIT: Oh and at your last line 2 posts ago Paris.
Get us a few more Ally's and you'll see why Falcon is mid tier.

Ally's Falcon is overrated because of a few youtube videos and LT tourney results. Legan and Kirin place top 20 in real tournaments using only Link.

 

[Kewkky]

Actually, Link's recovery is pretty freakin' bad. He falls faster normally than he moves horizontally in the air (which is slow in and of itself), EVEN WORSE if he fastfalls! Pushed a certain distance offstage, it's a sure fact that Link is gonna die. Hell, we could even make graphs to show how far Link has to be offstage to die no matter what he tries, one while having his second jump and the other without his second jump.

In fact, I'd LOVE to promise you guys that I'll do it, but I'm kinda lazy... Unless you guys really want it (and you shouldn't, since you guys should know the distance if you know the MU or main a gimping character), I'm just gonna stick to text and blabbing out facts.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The reason I see how Link got his spot on the tier and why I hear the same thing with him alot is cause of his recovery. Everyone gets on it so much and just ignores everything else about Link. Which I find sad and a poor way to actually judge character potential.

 

[Purple]

Everyone in low tier would place under him? Really now... :|

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Excuse? Hardly.


I still think PT is overrated (haven't you seem me support you on this), but Falcon's move up accompanied a legit change in understanding of the metagame, specifically that ground speed is extremely powerful, and running shield is amazing (especially if you have high ground speed).

I don't fully agree with it, but it's defendable.

@Bolded part: Maybe. Honestly dude, I argued about that for so long, I don't remember most of it. >_>

@Falcon part: That's basically what Ally proved, so it is largely due to him. You could say the same thing with just how amazing Squirtle is and Reflex, or how well Ike can do against high tiers like Falco or Olimar and San.

@Overall post: Honestly, I'm mainly poking fun at all of the people who supported PT rising largely due to Reflex, but suddenly change their mind about that idea when Ike is thrown in there, or Ness is thrown in there. It's hypocritical, and I find it oddly refreshing. It's basically a confirmation that I was indeed right in believing that people were just using Reflex as an excuse to say "PT should move up", and didn't actually believe what they said when it came to one person being able to have a character rise up.

If somebody was against PT rising so much, and are also against Ike/Ness/ZSS/Luigi rising for the same reason: good for them, they actually stick by their points. However, I am fully expecting anyone who supported PT moving up so much to support Ike/Ness/ZSS/Luigi rising as this is basically the same situation. Reflex/PT placed well in tournaments. Ike/San, Ness/Sharky, ZSS/Nick Riddle, and Luigi/Big Lou have all done the same, but in a tournament with a much higher saturation of talent. If those people who supported the PT rise don't support the other characters rising; I'm going to laugh at them for being hypocrites. I hope seeing as you are in the BBR, you will point this small fact out to various members next tier list creation who may have "forgotten" how this played out last time.

 

[Ussi]

The only characters I'd say Link is arguable over is Jigglypuff and Zelda. Samus has a equally as good if not better projectile game and a better recovery than Link which makes up for her lack of kill power i would say cause she does have her spike to gimp at least while Link has to rely on killing only. Link being a fast faller makes him susceptible to being combo'd and CG'd while Samus's floaty nature avoids that.

 

[Kitamerby]

Nothing Samus has bar Zair could possibly make up for her abysmal kill power. It's really a shame.

 

[Juushichi]

lolno
10nos

EDIT: Oh and at your last line 2 posts ago Paris.
Get us a few more Ally's and you'll see why Falcon is mid tier.

Get us a few more Boss' and you'll see why Mario is mid tier.
Get us a few more MX's and you'll see why Yoshi is mid tier.
Get us a few more Xyro's and you'll see why Samus is mid tier.

Spoiler

This is mostly a joke, since you run into a lot of low's saying why they should be at least mid. (Though through main bias, I think Mario should be.)

You could make the argument with a lot of the "high" lows in that tier section. It's something that I don't think is really explored, but using the above example is kind of poor.

 

[Ussi]

Nothing Samus has bar Zair could possibly make up for her abysmal kill power. It's really a shame.

I was speaking relative to Link. If Samus's kill power wasn't so bad she wouldn't be low tier

 

[smashkng]

Link's projectiles aren't that good. He has really bad frame data (IMO only Ganon has worse, his fastest move is 6 frames fast), his close range game is pretty bad (which is why IMO Snake ***** Link), he has mediocre OoS options, his moves aren't very safe on shield combined with a very laggy grab (never miss it) and actually has trouble landing kill and surprisingly little KO power, especially for being so slow. Plus his mobility sucks and his jump is both slow (2nd slowest after Snake) and short, which nerfs his air game. And then, it isn't like he can't recover at all, but still he gets ***** by moves like DK's Cargo Dthrow offstage or if he gets hit by MK's Dair that outpriorises Link's Up b). He has projectiles to cover gimps somewhat, especially with the Boomerang, but the very little distance both horizontally and vertically (which makes spikes more dangerous) and lack of an aerial like Ganon's Uair really hurts his recovery.

And about his projectile game, it is pretty bad. They are all slow and easy to powershield or even normal shield. "Somewhat" prevent the opponent to approach very easily or prevent the opponent to projectile camp too easily? Sure. Force the opponent to approach? I doubt it.

 

[Chuee]

Really all Link has close range is his jab.
Gale boomering and arrows aren't that great but bombs are pretty good.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Plus, his grab game is almost non-existent, which doesn't help at all. If he had a better grab (literally anything could be better than that stupid hookshot crap), then maybe he'd be a bit better, but that still doesn't help his abysmal recovery.

 

[smashkng]

But Link's jab unfortunately isn't so safe if it gets shielded.

 

[bigman40]

No jab is safe if it gets shielded.

 

[Kewkky]

No jab is safe if it gets shielded.

Kirby's jab3 is.

Try and shieldgrab that! I'll give you an invisible cookie if you do it.

 

[Juushichi]

Link's projectiles aren't that good. He has really bad frame data (IMO only Ganon has worse, his fastest move is 6 frames fast), his close range game is pretty bad (which is why IMO Snake ***** Link), he has mediocre OoS options, his moves aren't very safe on shield combined with a very laggy grab (never miss it) and actually has trouble landing kill and surprisingly little KO power, especially for being so slow. Plus his mobility sucks and his jump is both slow (2nd slowest after Snake) and short, which nerfs his air game. And then, it isn't like he can't recover at all, but still he gets ***** by moves like DK's Cargo Dthrow offstage or if he gets hit by MK's Dair that outpriorises Link's Up b). He has projectiles to cover gimps somewhat, especially with the Boomerang, but the very little distance both horizontally and vertically (which makes spikes more dangerous) and lack of an aerial like Ganon's Uair really hurts his recovery.

And about his projectile game, it is pretty bad. They are all slow and easy to powershield or even normal shield. "Somewhat" prevent the opponent to approach very easily or prevent the opponent to projectile camp too easily? Sure. Force the opponent to approach? I doubt it.

Super theory bros. 3. I'm wondering if you've ever played players of the likes of Legan or anyone pretty decent with Link. Besides, what Links are seriously going to grab you when they have better options?

Also, the worst thing about Mario is his horrible matchups at the top levels. Granted, he has even matchups (apparently, and I also think so) against Pikachu and Diddy Kong, not so horrible matchups against the likes of Wario, Olimar and Snake (though they're still pretty **** hard) and has even to rather favorable matchups against just about anyone lower than C-tier.

He doesn't get a lot of hype because he's not easy and has kind of a high learning curve (Is this a johns, probably... actually screw that, you can say the same about just about anyone in LT and even some in mid). Is he better than F-tier? Certainly. Not saying he's viable, but man do some of these lower tiers need to be re-evaluated.

 

[smashkng]

I did play a very good Link and once I found out how to exploit Link's weaknesses, I found out that how bad Link is. You don't even have to gimp Link to **** him with Snake.

 

[bigman40]

Kirby's jab3 is.

Try and shieldgrab that! I'll give you an invisible cookie if you do it.

Well, most people's jabs that are multi-hit are safe on shield (except metaknight, but that doesn't matter) simple cause they ****ing hit like metaknight's tornado w/o moving. Single hitting jabs are almost never safe, and this makes being able to have jab mixups a very important aspect (imo) to today's metagame.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Not really, mid tiers usually have a form of gameplay that's very solid, something that can help them compete decently against high tiers albeit not able to be abused. Ness has the same thing, however his spacing game isn't as good as DK's, his aerial maneuverability isn't as good as jiggs (granted she's light as all hell), he's a lighter character, and he gets outspaced by anyone who has a sword.

I know this was a while ago, but i just need to point this out because for some reason nobody knows this... Ness is NOT a lightweight he is extremely mid being the exact middle of the roster in weight.

 

[Kole]

ness is a little bit on the lighter side, but in the middle for the most part

 

[Kinzer]

I know this was a while ago, but i just need to point this out because for some reason nobody knows this... Ness is NOT a lightweight he is extremely mid being the exact middle of the roster in weight.

I thought that was Sonic or Mario...

 

[Purple]

I know this was a while ago, but i just need to point this out because for some reason nobody knows this... Ness is NOT a lightweight he is extremely mid being the exact middle of the roster in weight.

Can he stock tank at high percent? No? He's light by my perspective. I don't go by weight numbers and such, I go by if the character dies by snake's u-tilt relatively early, he's light.

However I can see where we would have different perspectives.

 

[Kewkky]

Can he stock tank at high percent? No? He's light by my perspective. I don't go by weight numbers and such, I go by if the character dies by snake's u-tilt relatively early, he's light.

But then, that would mean that you're taking data-backed traits that are accepted by the vast majority since they are backed with data, and interpreting them in your own subjective way! I don't think that's an able way to communicate your points... : \

To play the game, you have to go by the rules. If a character's weight is near the most middle-weight character in the game, then I would think that he would be best called 'mid-weight' instead of light-weight.

 

[Yink]

Can he stock tank at high percent? No? He's light by my perspective. I don't go by weight numbers and such, I go by if the character dies by snake's u-tilt relatively early, he's light.

However I can see where we would have different perspectives.

Um, what?

Yes, he can stock tank. When I'm in teams, that's my job. Just saying. Also, why would you put it like this, "If you die from Snake's u-tilt really early that means you're light". C'mon now.

 

[Ussi]

think of it this way, Ness can't survive like heavies, but isn't as fragile as lightweights... otherwise known as... mid weights

 

[Kitamerby]

I thought that was Sonic or Mario...

It's neither. It's Pit and Lucas iirc. :X

 

[Purple]

But then, that would mean that you're taking data-backed traits that are accepted by the vast majority since they are backed with data, and interpreting them in your own subjective way! I don't think that's an able way to communicate your points... : \

To play the game, you have to go by the rules. If a character's weight is near the most middle-weight character in the game, then I would think that he would be best called 'mid-weight' instead of light-weight.

That's true, but you can't really change perspectives on things. Ness is mid-weight by means of weight data, which is quite true and I should take that into note when I conversate with other people. However, I wouldn't want a Ness to stock tank on teams over a snake main (unless we have really good chemistry obviously), I don't take into account things such as good DI, because there are times when you won't DI well, which is when their weight comes into play. Ness can get away with some things when it comes to getting killed, however not as well as many others who are more common in tournament play.

 

[ADHD]

I think Lucas is really bad. Like, really bad. Like, Zelda-style anti-hype and drop incoming.

Lucas is not so bad, really. He has some good, lagless KO moves as well as a few good aerials that lead into other things. Also an applicable dtilt lock.