The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Kole]

Fatal is not 2nd best Snake in the country.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fatal is not 2nd best Snake in the country.

Depends who you ask, I guess. Many up in the NE think he is. It's either him or Razer.

 

[Kewkky]

Sorry for taking a while to answer. My PC's restarting by itself, and I can't seem to find my Windows CDs so I can repair my files... Believe me, it is OH so frustrating reading stuff, then in the middle of something BAM blue screen and then everything black immediately. I go "d;OW4FUHA", which roughly translates to "Oh dear, woe is me!"

I understand what you're saying Kewkky, trust me, I do. People using the data they recieve about characters, and then piling the information together, discussing it, and coming up with a majority vote on what the match-up ratio is is perfectly fine if you have unbiased individuals (read: BBR) discussing these things. However, what I'm asking you is that is this tier list as of right now based off of which characters have the best match-ups, or is based off of opinion first, then match-up second?

Initially, we should be getting data on each character, than by opinion and research, make the matchups. We should be doing this for every character in the game, using every decent or knowledgeable player's information in order to get an unbiased pile of results for every Match Up (which is a horribly daunting process).

After all of the matchups are done, we use that data to see who is the best score (for lack of a better word) matchup wise. That is the tier list, no opinions after this point are needed, if there are problems, the matchups need to be rediscussed piece by piece, and then you have to weight out whether or not the character is actually deserving of a drop or boost.

It's very nice to know you can see things from my perspective, and I should just tell you that I can see things from your perspective as well. If it's matchups what you want, like many other BBR members have said before, there's quite a bit of activity involving those in the BBR. I don't remember exactly what the other BBR members before me have said, so I'm just gonna keep it as vague as I can while still trying to reassure you that we're doing what we can to put everything in order. (don't try and force the info out of me, I'm still fairly new in the BBR and wouldn't like to run the risk of being called out for saying too much. Hope you understand!)

 

[Turbo Ether]

Every characters loses to MK. How does an MK centric metagame harm Marth more so than other characters?

 

[Shaya]

i see marth mains lose to non-mk mains more often than mk.
at least these days and at bigger tournaments

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

To be honest, I think Marth players and the community in general tend to overrate Marth's match-ups. If he really beat like everyone except MK and barely lost to Dedede (and beats Snake now?) we'd be seeing him place a little better, especially given what Shaya just said (which is actually very true, it isn't really MKs knocking Marths out anymore).

 

[Shaya]

No I'd say our match ups, at least in terms of disadvantages, evens and advantages are at least accurate. There are some contentions like DK, ROB, ICs, Diddy. But rest are mostly stable and mutually agreed.

 

[Purple]

To say that characters with even or advantageous matchups will immediately place better is a silly idea. Skill level and smarts also applies. Even if smarter players play MK and dumber (for lack of a better word) play marth, then even if MU is even (not saying it is, but for the sake of conversation) MK will win and people will feel the MU is better for MKwhen it's truely not. Also Kewkky I understand

 

[Browny]

Mutually agreed matchup ratios have exactly what effect in actual play?

People always 'mutually agreed' that matchups vs pit were close or in some cases disadvantage, despite clearly being shown that the other character almost always has an ACTUAL advantage

 

[Shaya]

inafterdjbrownysayssomethingsilly (for the sake of trolling).

 

[Blacknight99923]

To be honest, I think Marth players and the community in general tend to overrate Marth's match-ups. If he really beat like everyone except MK and barely lost to Dedede (and beats Snake now?) we'd be seeing him place a little better, especially given what Shaya just said (which is actually very true, it isn't really MKs knocking Marths out anymore).

why do random MK players lose in tournaments? The same reasons marths do is because we get outplayed.
Marth also has a pretty high learning curve which is why there are marths...and then there are marths. An average or even slightly above average marth will probably have different "match ups" then say Mikehaze.


Skill level is probably a huge factor in marths match ups.


And Marths agree we are being dumb for not maining MK roxy.

 

[ksizl4life]

My answer to that post:

This isn't just one placing. If you haven't seen her placing well over the past year, you haven't been paying attention (which is fine, I don't go looking up the placings of random mid tier characters either). If this is the first time you've seen her place well, then it's probably because it's MLG.

Incidentally, Riddle also placed 9th at MLG Orlando and beat players like ksizzle and went to last hit with ADHD. ADHD has extensive ZSS experience, having played with and against Snakeee very very very often (ksizzle too).

Nah i didnt play with snakeee very very often

however nick riddle did outplay me

Spoiler

on an mlg tv

kudos to him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My mistake, I thought you had played him more than once. Someone actually corrected me last night.

 

[Purple]

Mutually agreed matchup ratios have exactly what effect in actual play?

People always 'mutually agreed' that matchups vs pit were close or in some cases disadvantage, despite clearly being shown that the other character almost always has an ACTUAL advantage

Matchups don't have to do with anything in actual play. It's what a basic player should look out for for a basic opponent using a certain character, and how often percentage wise you will be able to beat them. If you're smarter than them, you'll beat them at a higher percentage. Those matchups might actually be disadvantageous to Pit, doesn't mean the pit player will always lose however.

You have to understand that 4:6 means you have a 40% chance of winning . Getting two wins in a 4:6 ratio while being smarter than your opponent is not as hard as it may seem on paper.

 

[Kole]

however nick riddle did outplay me on an mlg tv

kudos to him.

 

[Purple]

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

dudes... howabout y'all play zelda before you whine about her teir position.


While I think 3rd worst may be excessive (she seems like she should be right around Ike yoshi and mario really)

she is certainly bad. She gets camped hard by a lot of characters. She is certainly capable against a lot of characters, and she can give the hurting to a few, even. But you'll NEVER see her in tournaments because she has awful matchups against a lot of the most common characters you are going to see.



The things Olimar, Game and Watch, Metaknight and snake can do to her, especially, are just horrifying.

 

[The Truth!]

Just a note from something mentioned before, pikachu most likely has one of the 5 best matchups against MK, and depending on how gay the MK can play, top 3 (he stands a significantly better chance against planking and scrooging then say, Falco). The other characters that likely MU better are in A tier. Marth also generally isnt considered that bad.

But really there's no concensus at any level on what pikachus worst match-ups are, so theres little point in anyone else trying to state them.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Now that MLG Columbus has passed, hopefully some misinformed people can now realize Zero Suit Samus as a high tier character rather than a middle tier. Shaky Ness and San Ike did place well enough to make it to pro status. I'm still surprised an Ike player made it that far; fortunately for San, he avoided MK players in his bracket. Props to him though. I still believe Ike is a low tier character, just barely. Ike most likely rivals the top of low tier with Mario.

I'd say any character that is middle tier or higher is tournament viable.

 

[Luigi player]

fortunately for San, he avoided MK players in his bracket. Props to him though. I still believe Ike is a low tier character, just barely.

He actually had to play Judge for 11th/12th place and beat him. I still think Ike's low tier though.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm glad to see characters like Ike and ness going ok. And they are low tiers. Which makes me stand by my statement that Peach is seriously beast and can beast in tournaments. At this point it is not the characters for good placings. It is the players behind them. Peach players need to step it up hard if Ness and Ike are doing work. This time there is no excuse. Really when Peach has more options then both of them.

 

[Purple]

Peach players aren't smart enough yet. It might sound weird because I am also a Peach main, however there are things I don't feel we know how to get by yet. For example MK in general. We have a basic idea, however in high-level it seems like it's never implemented well enough.

It also depends on luck of the draw. I've seen Judge have difficulty with certain matchups that he shouldn't really have trouble with (he lost to Reflex's PT in a MM at Genesis, Reflex particularly hates Marth/MK as squirtle). I feel San got a 'lucky of the draw' of sorts against Judge (I don't know how it's luck in particular, considering it is mk vs ike, but you get what i'm saying). Depending on what matchups and how knowledgeable the player we get in bracket is of weird matchups, it can show Peach's potential, it just hasn't happened. Plus we don't have an abnormally smart player (no offense to any peaches) of my knowledge that have expanded how Peach can get past MK.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike most likely rivals the top of low tier with Mario.

I'm just going to throw out that if you think that Mario and Ike are anywhere close to each other in worth at this point you are pretty much wrong.

Mario is lucky some people still think he isn't horrible. He certainly doesn't have the consistent representation to justify people's inflated opinions of him, though.

Don't give me that "it's the players" junk either. If your character is under-performing at MLG (and tourneys in general) maybe it's not that "people don't see his potential." It's been over two years.

 

[Ussi]

There is only SO MUCH a player can do for his character

You also can't expect Ike to be consistent with results B+ Tier characters usually have cause well he's Ike! He's not supposed to do well in tourneys in the first place. If Ike is doing that good, he's underrated being low tier seriously...


Mario did have Boss until he switched to Luigi.

 

[M@v]

Imo S, A, B tiers are perfect. Maybe switch Wario and DDD but thats it. They should really focus on the mid/low tiers this time. I have a lot of disagreements with that part.

examples:

ZSS should be top of c tier, or bump her to B tier behind GW. I might even put her over GW. Its CLOSE though. I still think GW is better.

luigi over fox, peach, DK

Ike has to move way up. I think its been proven with low tier tourney **** + San he's clearly not low tier

Zelda over samus and puff, but still low tier.

Link not second worst.

 

[Purple]

You guys do realize that two years isn't that long for a game to develop correct? By a competitive standpoint this game is still quite new. Why do you guys think changes happen so rapidly? More people will play the game, and because of that more people will be able to play these underused characters, no need to be impatient and immediately say Mario is a horrible character. I will agree with Yagami however that at this current moment, Ike is no where near Mario's level ; he is much better than Mario by tournament standards .


By the way, if you guys want to talk about how street fighter seems to have a solid tier list, the difference there is that the same basics apply to almost every game, with very small changes. Basically saying, Sagat will always be good to some extent, Ryu will always be good to some extent, charge characters can always be played defensively for the most part, etc.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*nods*

Ike and Mario no where near each other. Try Ike and Ness.

 

[uhmuzing]

Ike has to move way up. I think its been proven with low tier tourney **** + San he's clearly not low tier

Low tier tourneys don't matter.
And one very skilled individual placing well with him doesn't mean that Ike isn't low tier still.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I'm just going to throw out that if you think that Mario and Ike are anywhere close to each other in worth at this point you are pretty much wrong.

Mario is lucky some people still think he isn't horrible. He certainly doesn't have the consistent representation to justify people's inflated opinions of him, though.

Don't give me that "it's the players" junk either. If your character is under-performing at MLG (and tourneys in general) maybe it's not that "people don't see his potential." It's been over two years.

When I say low tier I mean lower than middle tier. Ike and Mario are in the same tier. They both have bad recoveries, but they also have good attributes, like Mario's cape, and Ike's jabs. They also seem to get the same performance score except that Ike is a more popular character and more people play as him. Mario is pretty much on the same level as Ike, even though I'd rank Ike, one spot above Mario.
Also, Riddle's ZSS is on a different level than all other ZSS players. That's why BBR ranked ZSS middle tier, they had Snakeee in mind mostly, and they didn't know much about Riddle then since he never traveled outside of Florida for tournaments. Ever since I played Riddle, I could tell ZSS is a high tier character.

 

[Purple]

When I say low tier I mean lower than middle tier. Ike and Mario are in the same tier. They both have bad recoveries, but they also have good attributes, like Mario's cape, and Ike's jabs. They also seem to get the same performance score except that Ike is a more popular character and more people play as him. Mario is pretty much on the same level as Ike, even though I'd rank Ike, one spot above Mario.
Also, Riddle's ZSS is on a different level than all other ZSS players. That's why BBR ranked ZSS middle tier, they had Snakeee in mind mostly, and they didn't know much about Riddle then since he never traveled outside of Florida for tournaments. Ever since I played Riddle, I could tell ZSS is a high tier character.

Are you sure you weren't just overwhelmed by Riddle's ZSS? Not saying ZSS is lower than what you expect. But one person shouldn't change a character, becuase apparently it can't be done consistently across the board of ZSS players. Ike has only one notable player, just like Mario did, however the Ike player is consistently placing much higher than the Mario/Luigi player.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach players aren't smart enough yet. It might sound weird because I am also a Peach main, however there are things I don't feel we know how to get by yet. For example MK in general. We have a basic idea, however in high-level it seems like it's never implemented well enough.

It also depends on luck of the draw. I've seen Judge have difficulty with certain matchups that he shouldn't really have trouble with (he lost to Reflex's PT in a MM at Genesis, Reflex particularly hates Marth/MK as squirtle). I feel San got a 'lucky of the draw' of sorts against Judge (I don't know how it's luck in particular, considering it is mk vs ike, but you get what i'm saying). Depending on what matchups and how knowledgeable the player we get in bracket is of weird matchups, it can show Peach's potential, it just hasn't happened. Plus we don't have an abnormally smart player (no offense to any peaches) of my knowledge that have expanded how Peach can get past MK.

My vision of it is people don't switch up. Peach is generic. And that is because people wanna do the same thing all the time. From when one starts peach they get away with being in the air all the time and turnip to Fair then Jab. Typical stuff like that. And when they see that it is working, they keep doing it. Never second questioning "Maybe I should switch it up just incase for when I fight someone much better, cause people see this all the time and I might not get away with it" I play way too many Peach dittos with alot of people. And it is the same thing. And I already know what to do, leading me to 2 stocking them nearly all matches. And random three stocks.

The same concept can go for beginners smashers. They usually roll alot. And people might get mad or don't really think on how to abuse that habit. So the roller might go even with the player or win. Now cause of this, the beginner may think he is doing ok and really has no problem. Or does not even notice/realize he has one. Take him up against an pro and watch him bait those rolls and punish instead of swinging attacks hoping to hit him and misses.

But another problem with Peach is that nearly all Peach players are aggressive. And this is bad. For one thing. Peach is not that great of a killer. You going all out, you burn your kill moves. Then when they at the % they should die. Peach can't kill them. Also If you fight any smart player, an aggressive Peach is not hard to stop for most characters. Even low/ botton tiers can have a field day with Peach for this. And it is the same thing seen over, and over. it gets old. And people will catch on.

Peach is generic cause of the players. When actually, Peach is no where near it.Peach has alot of tools and can do so much. She is a stratigic character due to all this. And is mostly called for defensive play. There is times when Peach has to be aggressive. Put a 24/7 style based on that is asking to lose. And Thats what I think most Peach players lack. A good D-Game. And a good ground game as well.

Then it comes to how actually smart the Peach players are. And from what I seen in videos, results and heard about, mindgames and thought patterns need to be stepped up.

As for meta knight. I have wrote many essays on Meta knight. My latest one broke meta down and how to actually beat him. And what peach players should be doing in the match that they don't do. But what I mostly here is complaining about meta, how Peach can't do this and that and all these excuses. Does one actually thinking complaining about a character and all these excuses is actually gonna downgrade a match up and make one a better player? People just wanna take the easy road out. Which is not believe something that can be true no matter what. People don't wanna seem to listen. And mostly care about being a top Peach and stand out as someone in the community. all that stuff is not getting results at tournies that they should be getting. it's all a waste of time.

Every *** whooping from meta that I have gotten, even ones I have no bizz losing too, is a lesson learned. Ones I have gone even with or beat is a lesson learn. Each and every match I had. I do my research and homework. See how thoss matches went and why. What worked, what did not, what I did not do that I should have for a different outcome, etc. People need to open thier eyes. And until they do, coming from me, I don't ever expect anything good to come from Peach in tournies and actually deserves the spot on the tier list and tourny placings. And yes, I am too included in that placement mess.

 

[Purple]

I felt a wall coming from Dark.Pch. Time to answer back to it.. Honestly I don't even have much to respond to for it, because all I read was this.

Peach players are autopilot, therefore we lose. You two stock these Peach players, however do you ever tell them of their autopilot?

You learn things, and you assert them to others, however they still play auto-pilot therefore they still keep losing.

 

[CaliburChamp]

*nods*

Ike and Mario no where near each other. Try Ike and Ness.

Ness is middle tier, Ike is low tier, Mario is low tier. I think most people forgot how good Mario is "for a low tier" since San's Ike MLG performance. I could see it being possible for Boss' Mario to beat Judge, Rich Brown, Ook, most people that San fought in the bracket.

 

[Purple]

Ness is middle tier, Ike is low tier, Mario is low tier. I think most people forgot how good Mario is "for a low tier" since San's Ike MLG performance. I could see it being possible for Boss' Mario to beat Judge, Rich Brown, Ook, most people that San fought in the bracket.

Mario and Luigi get ***** by high tiers like Snake and Metaknight, are you kidding me? At least luigi can kill the characters at lower percents, same with Ike. I really hope you aren't being serious about Boss's Mario beating high level MKs. Mario has the tools to beat most of mid tier, until he gets to characters that can outspace him, then he gets *****. Ike has the ability to outspace characters, and has matchups that are relatively manageable in the A tier section (Snake in particular).

Until Boss plays those people, then we can't say Ike is ~= Mario.

By the way, Ness is still considered low tier for low tier tournaments, just because he's mid tier in the tier list, doesn't mean he's mid tier in the eyes of BBR. He's good enough to stand out from low tiers, however not good enough to compete with mids.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Low tier tourneys don't matter.
And one very skilled individual placing well with him doesn't mean that Ike isn't low tier still.

Funny, Reflex being good with PT is THEE very reason why PT moved up.

Sorry, but according to BBR tier list rules, as stupid as those rules are, Ike must move up in order to avoid bias.

I could see it being possible for Boss' Mario to beat Judge, Rich Brown, Ook, most people that San fought in the bracket.

That's nice. Too bad Boss dropped Mario in MLG and has gone pure Luigi eh? That should tell you something about Mario's usability.

Mario's rep has fallen. Ike's and Ness's rep have both gone up. There is a reason for this.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Are you sure you weren't just overwhelmed by Riddle's ZSS? Not saying ZSS is lower than what you expect. But one person shouldn't change a character, becuase apparently it can't be done consistently across the board of ZSS players. Ike has only one notable player, just like Mario did, however the Ike player is consistently placing much higher than the Mario/Luigi player.

I was more overwhelmed to notice that other Zero Suit Samus players weren't playing at Riddle's level because he is the only ZSS main I played offline. Also, I know Ike is better than Mario, but only slightly. Mario is less hyped about because of less representation so people think that Ike is WAY better than Mario, but he's not.

 

[Purple]

I was more overwhelmed to notice that other Zero Suit Samus players weren't playing at Riddle's level because he is the only ZSS main I played offline. Also, I know Ike is better than Mario, but only slightly. Mario is less hyped about because of less representation so people think that Ike is WAY better than Mario, but he's not.

Please understand that peopel play differently in wifi than offline. Some people play to win on wifi, which requires them to take advantage of lag tactics (tactics that you can react to well offline, but can't in lag). Which gives a difference in gameplay.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I felt a wall coming from Dark.Pch. Time to answer back to it.. Honestly I don't even have much to respond to for it, because all I read was this.

Peach players are autopilot, therefore we lose. You two stock these Peach players, however do you ever tell them of their autopilot?

You learn things, and you assert them to others, however they still play auto-pilot therefore they still keep losing.

I don't play Peach players to beat the **** out of them and then feel like king of the hill. I always give advice to them. Its one reason I do Peach dittos. Then as time passes they become hardly for me to take out. Which shows they are stepping it up. And I continue to help them out more. I even give advice to other players outside of Peach. usually they ask for it. Like thier habits and why they lost like that. And I give them advice. Peach players when I fight them I help. Others I give advice if they ask for it.

 

[Purple]

I don't play Peach players to beat the **** out of them and then feel like king of the hill. I always give advice to them. Its one reason I do Peach dittos. Then as time passes they become hardly for me to take out. Which shows they are stepping it up. And I continue to help them out more. I even give advice to other players outside of Peach. usually they ask for it. Like thier habits and why they lost like that. And I give them advice. Peach players when I fight them I help. Others I give advice if they ask for it.

WHat are the chances of them playing a peach ditto in tournament? Shouldnt' they be learning other MUs just as much as they need to fix their habits?

 

[uhmuzing]

Funny, Reflex being good with PT is THEE very reason why PT moved up.

Sorry, but according to BBR tier list rules, as stupid as those rules are, Ike must move up in order to avoid bias.

That's pretty dumb. If the rest of Ike's players aren't doing anything extraordinary for Ike, it makes more sense to attribute it to Reflex/San's ability.