The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Ussi]

I'm bias towards Toon Link due to playing against Jerm before/watching Santi play before in person. Toon Link can be freaking scary in the right hands. I haven't seen that nearly as much with Peach yet.

Dark Peach was saying TL is better than Peach

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Dark Peach was saying TL is better than Peach

I read that wrong then. >_> Needs moar sleep.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dark Peach was saying TL is better than Peach

Uh-huh

I haven't seen that nearly as much with Peach yet.

Working on it.

Now I know I am gonna get flames and a whole bunch of attacks for this, but I think Peach is better than kirby And DK.

 

[Xyro77]

Samus should stay low tier. she is not qualified to be in mid tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Now I know I am gonna get flames and a whole bunch of attacks for this, but I think Peach is better than kirby And DK.

I 100% agree. I'm not sure how anyone really could disagree at this point. I wouldn't call this a controversial statement.

 

[Ussi]

No one thinks Samus is mid tier... and many didn't even put her in their tier lists

 

[Chuee]

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
DID SFP REEAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYY PUT LUCAS AS SECOND WORST?!?!?!?!?!?!
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Yeah, Im going to ignore everything you say about this game now.
Oh, and Ness isn't underrated lmao.

EDIT: A lot of low tier has a good move thats more than 8 frames lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
DID SFP REEAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYY PUT LUCAS AS SECOND WORST?!?!?!?!?!?!
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Yeah, Im going to ignore everything you say about this game now.
Oh, and Ness isn't underrated lmao.

EDIT: A lot of low tier has a good move thats more than 8 frames lol.

Maybe worst! :D

<3

Lucas is bad, like really bad. Like.... really bad.

 

[Ussi]

EDIT: A lot of low tier has a good move thats more than 8 frames lol.

Doesn't help when you don't have a GTFO move to use them.

 

[Chuee]

lmao
You're pretty ignorant sir.
In fact you're more ignorant on the character than anything i've ever heard about him before. And thats pretty bad.
@SFP

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lmao
You're pretty ignorant sir.
In fact you're more ignorant on the character than anything i've ever heard about him before. And thats pretty bad.
@SFP

O lawdy lawdy.

 

[Chuee]

lol ok, tell me why you think he's that bad so I can get an even better laugh.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Upper High Tier

High Tier



Mid Tier
:shiek:

Low Tier




This is how I feel the tier list should look. I didn't really put into much of an order but i just feel as though that some characters are mid tier some or low and most are high tier. Snake and MK have a tier of their own because their on another level from everyone else. I don't even think that's can be argued.

 

[Shaya]

Well I'll be a -little bit- blunt here.
I don't necessarily feel the tier lists have had much change up since the last one.

A lot of characters (Pikachu, Wario) have only certified their current positions with recent tournament prestige.
Ice Climbers have fallen back a little, but - (wait for the conclusion)
ZSS probably deserves the bump into current B tier (one of those characters people "know have the right stuff" but wanted to see it first).
Low Tier I'm not sure of... Ike's doing good as usual. Probably a bump into "Upper Low Tier" (which happens to the Ness/Bowser and tiered with mid... lol).

Conclusion:
However, ignoring individual placements (I spam this one a lot), I don't think many characters current tier position needs to change. We had a recent influx of new BBR members (god **** I think the count is close to 20!) so if a tier list project was to start now there would be changes, I'm sure. But I'm still reasonably firm on my opinion.

If I run the tier list project again I'm probably going to attempt to REALLY certify the notion that a characters individual placement means, the tier they're in means everything. Excluding maybe the top 10 or so.

 

[Chuee]

lolwut @ Zelda being mid tier.
EDIT: & Sonic being worst (wut)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

1. Really limited aerials and air game. They have small-ish hitbubbles and hit at weird angles or come out slowly. His uair and nair are decent, nair being like his only attack that's safe to use on a defensive character.

2. Very slow gimmicky ground game. His fastest smash is -14 frames,- and should be pretty hard to land unless you beast and get the dtilt lock off or something. I admittedly like a few moves he has. Some of his tilts are fun, and his recovery is very strong.

3. Grab-release issues. Ness has these too, but Ness has a solid air game and can easily avoid getting grabbed. Lucas doesn't really have this luxury; he is pretty easy to grab and can't really avoid it as well.

4. Trouble killing anyone, in theory. His fair is an OK off-stage gimp, but despite his insane kill power, he has no reliable setups and the kill moves themselves are really slow.

4.5. His moves don't string well into each other if at all, and playing Lucas seems to be chip damage until 90 and then mindgaming them into a 14+ frame kill move or trying to gimp them with fair.

5. Bad match-ups and a startling lack of results to his name, despite there being several good Lucas players in the country who are very capable; Lucas is just not a good vehicle for these players.

Incidentally I think if DJC was in Brawl, Lucas would be like 100 times better.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well I'll be a -little bit- blunt here.
I don't necessarily feel the tier lists have had much change up since the last one.

A lot of characters (Pikachu, Wario) have only certified their current positions with recent tournament prestige.
Ice Climbers have fallen back a little, but - (wait for the conclusion)
ZSS probably deserves the bump into current B tier (one of those characters people "know have the right stuff" but wanted to see it first).
Low Tier I'm not sure of... Ike's doing good as usual. Probably a bump into "Upper Low Tier" (which happens to the Ness/Bowser and tiered with mid... lol).

Conclusion:
However, ignoring individual placements (I spam this one a lot), I don't think many characters current tier position needs to change.

I disagree Marth needs to drop dat ***** balls all hype from MikeHaze and that's it. He prob accounts for 80% of marth's rep. Conclusion Marth sucks.

 

[Shaya]

I pray the new BBR entrants aren't as ignorant as you almostlegendary .

 

[Kitamerby]

Ness is tied with lucas as the exact middle in weight, here's the list if you dont believe me:

List

Here's the actual list if you dont believe this: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight

And I never said anything about him holding stocks or anything, just that he's the exact middle in weight

Cept he's not technically the exact middle.

The mediary weight is between Sonic and Ness/Lucas/Pit due to the fact that there are an odd number of characters in the roster.

Not like it matters, as we should be using Ivysaur/Lucario when discussing true midweights, regardless.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lolwut @ Zelda being mid tier.
EDIT: & Sonic being worst (wut)

Sonic sucks tru fax hate that character and he's boring as hell to play against I'd rather get teeth pulled then play against sonic or what a sonic play.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I pray the new BBR entrants aren't as ignorant as you almostlegendary .

Shaya i've said this before I'll say it again outside of you and Haze who post results as good as you guys that main marth on a consistent basis ? I don't think it's ignorant at all Marth's placing is very limited and I don't think it's ignorant to say he's a bad character when only 2 players place well with him on a consistent basis. Wouldn't more people place better with the character if he was good? I don't want to hear learning curve johns and bunch of other johns.

 

[Purple]

I disagree Marth needs to drop dat ***** balls all hype from MikeHaze and that's it. He prob accounts for 80% of marth's rep. Conclusion Marth sucks.

No need to insult, but there are many other Marth players besides Mike Haze..


oh, and this is how the tier list should look.


TOP
S

HIGH
A
B

Middle
C
D
E :shiek:

Low
F
G

until rediscussed.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No need to insult, but there are many other Marth players besides Mike Haze..

Do they place as well as Mike Haze does on a consistent basis? What does it matter if there's 30,000 Marth players if only 2 of them consistently make it in the top 3 ? All the rest finish last?

 

[Purple]

Do they place as well as Mike Haze does on a consistent basis? What does it matter if there's 30,000 Marth players if only 2 of them consistently make it in the top 3 ? All the rest finish last?

...

You do realize you just said that two marth players can outplace the rest of the cast by getting top 3 right? Hell, ONE marth player getting top 3 is a huge deal. iirc, RoyR wasn't at MLG. MikeHaze travels, therefore is well known and respected.

Kind of how Riddle wasn't respected until recently.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Cept he's not technically the exact middle.

The mediary weight is between Sonic and Ness/Lucas/Pit due to the fact that there are an odd number of characters in the roster.

Not like it matters, as we should be using Ivysaur/Lucario when discussing true midweights, regardless.

There are 39 characters and he is number 20. 19 in front of him, 19 behind... seriously, learn2count

 

[Purple]

I don't think you understand what he meant. let's say three characters were 8 in the weight scale, the fourth was 4, and 5-37 were .7. Does that make 19/20 still midweight? No, fourth is midweight. Get where he's coming from?

 

[Chuee]

1. Really limited aerials and air game. They have small-ish hitbubbles and hit at weird angles or come out slowly. His uair and nair are decent, nair being like his only attack that's safe to use on a defensive character.
Wrong, Fair has amazing range, I think it even outranges MK's Fair. Nair is not the only move safe on a defensive character. Half of his moves are relatively safe on block. Also forgot Dair, easily his best Aerial.

2. Very slow gimmicky ground game. His fastest smash is -14 frames,- and should be pretty hard to land unless you beast and get the dtilt lock off or something. I admittedly like a few moves he has. Some of his tilts are fun, and his recovery is very strong.
His ground game is far from slow. He has a 2 frame jab, a 7 frame ftilt, and a pretty fast utilt. His only problem on the ground is range.

3. Grab-release issues. Ness has these too, but Ness has a solid air game and can easily avoid getting grabbed. Lucas doesn't really have this luxury; he is pretty easy to grab and can't really avoid it as well.
lol, theres this thing called spacing. Ever heard of it? Spaced Fair and Dair can't be shieldgrabbed, and Nairing behind their shield is safe from grabs too. Also, you'd be suprised as to how many ways you can avoid the GR shenanigans. First off, you can break out of the release further which stops changes Marth's into a CG and makes Snake's GR utilt miss. Then theres air releasing. A lot of characters can't actually ground release him. He can air release on characters like Peach and Bowser.

4. Trouble killing anyone, in theory. His fair is an OK off-stage gimp, but despite his insane kill power, he has no reliable setups and the kill moves themselves are really slow.
G&W has trouble killing anyone in theory. Thats only in theory though. In real matches G&W can read the opponent and punish with one of his smashes. Same with Lucas.

4.5. His moves don't string well into each other if at all, and playing Lucas seems to be chip damage until 90 and then mindgaming them into a 14+ frame kill move or trying to gimp them with fair.
lol so wrong. Dair, Fair, Uair, & Nair all combo into other moves.
Dair itself does 20% and each Dair combo does at least 30%. Also Lucas doesn't gimp with Fair, he gimps with PKT.

5. Bad match-ups and a startling lack of results to his name, despite there being several good Lucas players in the country who are very capable; Lucas is just not a good vehicle for these players.
His MU's are far from bad. He only has 3 hard counters.
Most of his MU's are 55-45 to 60-40.

Incidentally I think if DJC was in Brawl, Lucas would be like 100 times better.

@Legendary:
Neeeeeeeeoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Purple]

lol @ me forgetting Neo because I'm dumb.

Oh, and Chaz from FL

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

...

You do realize you just said that two marth players can outplace the rest of the cast by getting top 3 right? Hell, ONE marth player getting top 3 is a huge deal. iirc, RoyR wasn't at MLG. MikeHaze travels, therefore is well known and respected.

Kind of how Riddle wasn't respected until recently.

If you think I don't know who RoyR is you're out of your mind. I didn't say that two Marth's players out place the rest of the cast. I'm talking about Marth mains and how there's only two consistent once placing in the top 3. Also if you think Nick Riddle wasn't respected until recently you're also out of your mind. I'm pretty sure the majority of well known FL players are respected Nick Riddle included same with Esam Sebrik co18 afro thunder Red Halberd GDX masky waft oli etc etc etc.... Just because you've never heard of them or anything doesn't mean they don't get any respect. I'm pretty sure a crap load of people was watching the Gauntlet live stream for IDk how long into the morning and gives FL their respect. So seriously you need to stop your points are asinine and ridiculous.

@Chuee Neo will admit that he doesn't place as well as Mike Haze I'm pretty sure he's said this him self.

 

[Blacknight99923]

If marth wasn't getting consistent results he wouldn't be where he is on character rankings. its not like he is 8 spots below on it compared to tier list in fact he is in the SAME spot last time I checked. anyone who says marth isn't getting the results to back his tier list position is obviously ignorant of data and facts.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If marth wasn't getting consistent results he wouldn't be where he is on character rankings. its not like he is 8 spots below on it compared to tier list in fact he is in the SAME spot last time I checked. anyone who says marth isn't getting the results to back his tier list position is obviously ignorant of data and facts.

I'm not saying that Marth isn't getting the result however he is a character who's results are driven by 2 players. You can't really say that Marth is a good character if only 2 players consistently place him with him.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well I'll be a -little bit- blunt here.
I don't necessarily feel the tier lists have had much change up since the last one.

A lot of characters (Pikachu, Wario) have only certified their current positions with recent tournament prestige.
Ice Climbers have fallen back a little, but - (wait for the conclusion)
ZSS probably deserves the bump into current B tier (one of those characters people "know have the right stuff" but wanted to see it first).
Low Tier I'm not sure of... Ike's doing good as usual. Probably a bump into "Upper Low Tier" (which happens to the Ness/Bowser and tiered with mid... lol).

Conclusion:
However, ignoring individual placements (I spam this one a lot), I don't think many characters current tier position needs to change. We had a recent influx of new BBR members (god **** I think the count is close to 20!) so if a tier list project was to start now there would be changes, I'm sure. But I'm still reasonably firm on my opinion.

If I run the tier list project again I'm probably going to attempt to REALLY certify the notion that a characters individual placement means, the tier they're in means everything. Excluding maybe the top 10 or so.

Let me ask you something. What is needed to make a tier list and see how good a character is. How does one determine this in your eyes?

 

[<π]

Actually, I don't think Link's recovery is really all that terrible. I think Zelda's for instance is probably a lot worse. There's more to recovery than the distance provided by your character's up+b, lol. It's definitely some of the worst in the game, but not THE worst as is often said. Link lives to ludicrously high percents with good DI and recovery habits. The vertical distance traveled between his second jump and up+b is actually more than respectable. His projectile game off-stage makes actually gimping him difficult unless you play MK.

Link's on-stage game is really very good. He has a solid ground game, a great short-hop with good aerials, an underrated projectile game (better than Samus', at the very least), a godly zair, and a plethora of (admittedly very average) options.

There are bad things about Link certainly, but most of them are pretty character-specific. It's way too easy to counterpick Link; Falco, MK, Dedede, etc. Link is chock full of inconvenient match-ups that hurt is viability. He isn't good, but I wish people would try to keep up with what makes him mediocre as a character instead of just saying the stuff that hasn't been valid for a year or more. For instance, his moves tend to have a lot of ending lag, and his physics turn him into something that is pretty easy to CP, but no one really talks about that. It's just "lolupb"

Link is believable as a mid tier character, and I believe he is better than most of low tier, and Sheik (who is strongly overrated, IMO). Get us a few more Legans and you'd see why.

I was digging all that till I got there. Sheik is crazy underrated. If there were 10 more of me... yeah. Sheik has great match ups against pretty much all the top tiers; great IMO being 50/50 or better.

But I digress I play pretty much all the "bad" characters. link is far from slow he lives longer than most because of his insane Momentum cancel. tons of safe on shield options and great low percent kills moves. his zoning game is ridiculous he out ranges most of the cast in the air and on the ground even without Zair. you bait an air dodge with link and between fsmash utilt dsmash you get kills. not to mention true combos from bair and jab into kill moves. Link is a solid character his recovery can be an issue but as you mentioned there are characters with worse options. I get gimped with link about as often I get gimped with and other two jump character, even versus MK.

I'm mad jiggs get no love honestly. I've been putting a lot more effort into my jiggs (for ICs and sheik) Jiggs is like Gdorf in that the right reads lead into big damage. Jiggs ground options are really underrated IMO and give her a big edge over a lot of the cast, her OOS options are pretty ridiculous. she has a great pivot grab four different high damage throws. She is easily one of the safest stallers in the game, scrooges better than MK, lol. And has quite a few set ups into rest, the best worst kill move in the game. including but not limited to, rapid jabs; multi hit aerials, etc. Nothing better than killing snake at 60 because he naired you. Again jiggs has her major weakness in weight and attack speed, but competent players who know the character can work around those the same way GaW does.

 

[Chuee]

@AlmostLegendary: I could say the same thing about almost the entire A tier.
EDIT: <3- What about MK & ICs?

 

[Purple]

If you think I don't know who RoyR is you're out of your mind.

Okay, so you know multiple Marth mains, even though you said there was only Mike Haze.

I didn't say that two Marth's players out place the rest of the cast. I'm talking about Marth mains and how there's only two consistent once placing in the top 3.

If they are placing top 3, they are more than likely beating high tier characters to get there, including snake, MK, ICs, Pika, etc. You get what i'm saying here? Marth is outplacing many high tier characters.

Also if you think Nick Riddle wasn't respected until recently you're also out of your mind.

Not many people know about Nick Riddle, when people thought ZSS, they thought Snakeee. This isn't an "you''re out of your mind" thing, Nick Riddle really didn't go many places outside of Florida. I

I'm pretty sure the majority of well known FL players are respected Nick Riddle included same with Esam Sebrik co18 afro thunder Red Halberd GDX masky waft oli etc etc etc.... Just because you've never heard of them or anything doesn't mean they don't get any respect.

I live in the Atlantic South region, I've personally met many of these people and have seen them play first hand. Seibrik and Co18 are the main people known outside of Florida, because they actually compete outside of FL. Just because ESAM and Nick Riddle started doing good in MLG, doesn't mean that they were well known this whole time. That is a load of bull**** to even say. Are you going to say that Lounis was well known for the past year too?

I

'm pretty sure a crap load of people was watching the Gauntlet live stream for IDk how long into the morning and gives FL their respect. So seriously you need to stop your points are asinine and ridiculous.

They really aren't all that ridiculous, Florida is known to be a good state, but not an extraordinary state.


Also, out of conversation, but AlmostLegendary I don't like your tone from how you're typing to me. If you're going to prove your points, don't do it by just saying my points are stupid. go find some information and tournament results that show your points then come back to me. Look back at tournaments outside of the past two MLG events and tell me where Nick Riddle has placed well in a national level setting. You don't see it. Like I said before, you'll see Seibrik and Co18, who are notable players in their own right (CO18 being possibly the best Dedede in the nation), but you don't see that much else. You also won't be seeing Esam in those placings. The state as a whole is known for being a good state, but not each player in particular.

 

[Chuee]

Florida is an extraordinary state.
They had like 3 players in top 10 at Columbus.

 

[Purple]

Florida is an extraordinary state.
They had like 3 players in top 10 at Columbus.

Lol, Chuee I know, I'm talking about before the recent MLG events.. Please note that

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@AlmostLegendary: I could say the same thing about almost the entire A tier.
EDIT: <3- What about MK & ICs?

What about them ?

 

[Blacknight99923]

What about them ?

your making points of there's 2 marth players getting all of marths points yet realistically almost every high tier has a player getting a SIGNIFICANT amount of its points, for example ADHD ALONE gets 40 % of diddys points, ally gets 1/3 of snakes. It wouldn't surprise me if DEHF and lain did similar things to their characters as well.

 

[Kitamerby]

Hell, having just 2 top players is better luck than a good 80% of the rest of the cast has.