Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

[The Halloween Captain]

If that be the case, then all of the games sans Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess would be in Adult Link's timeline. However, I'm not going to challenge you, because I have evidence that may support this idea.

In Oracle of Ages, Labrynna's present-day version has more land than its 400-years earlier past version, which had much more water covering the land, which suggests that the water began to "drain", so to speak, in reference to "The Great Deku Tree's Success" (as Scott! so thankfully linked us to).

I really don't like it, but MM and TP may be the only games in Timeline B

Don't worry about balancing the two sides of the timeline. If you worry about symmetry, you set yourself up to be wrong.

Consider this: Zelda team makes the games first, and stuffs them into the timeline later. This means that the games are rarely used to explain the timeline, but rather, they are adjusted to accomidate their feasability within the timeline. Thus, the games will (almost) always be placed wherever it is easiest to place them.

Typically, the easiest placement is rarely the most symmetrical. It's not a simple matter of flipping a coin; it's a matter of events commonly favoring one explanation more often than another. Any Hyrule with lots of water is more likely to be in the timeline where Hyrule was flooded, as there are no oceans in or even near Hyrule prior to the flooding that could explain a gradual process of the country becoming waterlogged.

In fact, it is very likely that Twilight Princess is the only game in it's timeline other than Majora's Mask. Is there even still a triforce in Majora's mask? After all, Twilight Princess is the first "explanation" of a triforce across both timelines. Prior to that, we assumed all the games followed the child timeline, without considering that there was technically no triforce in the child timeline for the games to follow.

[edit] The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask The only time the Triforce is made reference to is on the blocks outside the entrance of the inverted Stone Tower Temple. It is believed it was meant to blaspheme the Goddesses. In addition, there is a small Triforce engraving on Link's shield. There are also Triforce carvings on the tongues of the statues leading to Ikana from Termina Field.

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Triforce#The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Majora.27s_Mask

 

[Spire]

Nah, you're right. It's sad, but it's true. I never realized it, but the reason I became so interested in the timeline was to ultimately test myself to see if I could balance it out, but alas, I cannot. So...

A: OoT - WW/PH - FS/FSA - ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA - LoZ/AoL
B: OoT - MM - TP

Zelda Wii better make it into Timeline B, because Spirit Tracks is obviously in A due to its watery Hyrule.

 

[c3gill]

King of the Red Lions says this quote:

"When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was seperated from the elements that made him a hero."

In fact, it is very likely that Twilight Princess is the only game in it's timeline other than Majora's Mask. Is there even still a triforce in Majora's mask? After all, Twilight Princess is the first "explanation" of a triforce across both timelines. Prior to that, we assumed all the games followed the child timeline, without considering that there was technically no triforce in the child timeline for the games to follow.

Short answer: The Triforce stays in Hyrule. He *should* lose his title "hero of time" when he leaves Hyrule, but because child Link from OoT is the Link in MM, we still refer to him as the hero of time- even though its incorrect. this is also backed by the lack of a master sword in MM.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Short answer: The Triforce stays in Hyrule. He *should* lose his title "hero of time" when he leaves Hyrule, but because child Link from OoT is the Link in MM, we still refer to him as the hero of time- even though its incorrect. this is also backed by the lack of a master sword in MM.

Well, actually, The Hero of Time is probably just the name of that specific Link, like the Hero of Winds refers specifically to the Link that holds the Wind Waker.

And Spire - you can still get your hopes up about Sprit Tracks.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_In7cd9sYoR4/ScwqichmYaI/AAAAAAAADHM/qk8s3ZOnyi8/s1600-h/Train+1.png

If that's Hyrule, it's either really late in the WW timeline or it's in the TP timeline. Or it's not Hyrule. But you can be pretty sure that it is not WW Link in Hyrule, only one or the other.

 

[SinkingHigher]

So it's safe to say that Hyrule probably got hosed down while link was in termina then right.

Do you think it might be because of something that happened while link was in Termina? Perhaps he was punished for leaving his world behind to find Navi? Personal gain never turns out well.

I never finished MM, but was there ever a reference to a flood or something like that? iirc MM all happened on some kind of island surrounded by water. Well, that might mean the flood already happened.

 

[pokesmashfighter]

..........

 

[comboking]

Just because Link goes to a different place doesn't mean he is not the hero of time.
Plus when link was young he was not the hero of time and if he went back in time after the 7 years he in fact would not be the Hero of time,right?

 

[c3gill]

Just because Link goes to a different place doesn't mean he is not the hero of time.
Plus when link was young he was not the hero of time and if he went back in time after the 7 years he in fact would not be the Hero of time,right?

Young Link was not ready to be the Hero of Time, his body wasnt ready. After the 7 years, he was accepted as the Hero of Time, by the master sword. So as young link, he wasnt the hero of time.

additionally, he didnt have his part of the triforce when he was young. No Triforce of Courage, no Master Sword- he wasnt the Hero until he reached adulthood, after those 7 years.

What makes Link the Hero of Time? If it is his possession of the Triforce of Courage, or posession of the Master Sword- he is NOT the Hero of Time in Majora's Mask.

If it is just a worthless title, bestowed upon him and to remain throughout time- then I guess he is the Hero of Time, both as Young Link in OoT and as Link in MM. But that title is dependant on those items, then his is not.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

So it's safe to say that Hyrule probably got hosed down while link was in termina then right.

Do you think it might be because of something that happened while link was in Termina? Perhaps he was punished for leaving his world behind to find Navi? Personal gain never turns out well.

I never finished MM, but was there ever a reference to a flood or something like that? iirc MM all happened on some kind of island surrounded by water. Well, that might mean the flood already happened.

Actually, not quite.

What I'm saying is that until Twilight Princess came out, there wasn't a triforce in the child timeline, as TP is the first evidence of a Triforce existing in two timelines simultaniously. Thus, nearly all the Zelda games probably take place in the adult timeline, where Ganondorf does in fact have a triforce with which to take over Hyrule. At least all the Zelda games in which Hyrule has a coast are in the child timeline, as Hyrule is landlocked, with no evidence of an ocean anywhere. This is furthered by TP, where there is still nothing resembling an ocean near Hyrule a full 100 or more years later.

The most important thing we determined is that not only do we doubt that there are about the same number of games on both sides of the timeline, we doubt that there will ever be any attempt to make the child and adult timelines balanced with their game totals. This is because the way Zelda games are designed lend themselves to being made first and stuck in the timeline later, meaning that Zelda games are almost always placed in the most convenient location in the timeline, which by the nature of histories, indicates that a lot of games will be in a single side of the timeline, as one timeline tends to have a better explanation for a greater range of events than the other. The side we think will be more cluttered would be the WW adult side, primarily due to the way the geography has a simple explanation for being dramatically different between games on that side.

Although I can't say much on majora's mask. Being brought up with WW, it's really hard for me to go back and enjoy previous 3D installments simply because the technology and usage of 3D became dramatically better from N64 to GC.

EDIT (at above):

Link still had the Ocarina of Time, correct?

Then he could time travel.

Although I would like to know what the significance of him being the hero of time is. TP doesn't have any past hero that the people know about, which means that it was probably young Link, who is only the Hero of time to people who were aware of the past events (the Light Guardians). I also don't know anything about MM, so I don't know if the Hero of Time title is important to it's story.

 

[c3gill]

Link still had the Ocarina of Time, correct?

Then he could time travel.

Link can time travel in OoT, without the Master Sword? do tell.

and in the text of MM, it states that the some deity aides Link, giving him the chance to go back in time. the Ocarina is a vessel through which he prays to the Goddess of Time, iirc.

If the Ocarina made him the Hero of Time, then the Skull Kid would have been the Hero of Time when he was in posession of it- correct? And that would be game over, because Majora's Mask using that to travel through time would be ggs all around.

 

[Phantom7]

Good point. As for the whole "Hero of Time" title given to Link in OoT, that title only exists for adult Link when he obtained the Triforce of Courage and received the Master Sword. The Master Sword gave him the title, so no, in MM he is not the Hero of Time - in my opinion anyway. To refer to MM Link as the Hero of Time would be incorrect, disregarding the fact that he is the same Link as the Hero of Time, since Zelda warped him back in time before he received that title.

In MM, Link could have warped, but unfortunately, he did not know any songs that allowed him to warp; however, he did know songs that allowed him to do other specific things, such as traveling through time or making statues of himself.

 

[Spire]

Link, The Hero of Time, had to have become a Hyrulean Hero after his Terminian adventure, because in Twilight Princess, Link is granted the "Hero's Clothes" and the "Hero's Bow", which are fitted to an Adult, not a child, so he obviously did not attain the "hero" status because of what he did in Termina. I bet you because of this, we may very well play the Zelda game that follows The Hero of Time's third adventure.

Perhaps Link will earn a new "Hero of _____" title in this game, and will explain why the Gorons ended up with Link's bow. Wow, this excites me.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Probably stole it for crack money.

Imo only link has the potential to be the hero of time, but it's not until he pulls the master sword out and travels through time that he is officially said hero. He is DESTINED to be the hero of time, but that's not to say that he is the hero of time 24/7.

Eitherway I don't see why this point matters. It's link, always link. Whether he's older or not.

 

[Alzi]

How long are we going to spend talking about the timeline

I think we should all start to talk about how awsome spirit tracks is going to be.

 

[c3gill]

I really hope it is a good game, and doesnt let me down. Phantom Hourglass was decent, but not the "pure" new Zelda that I am craving.

Need MM on VC!

 

[SuperRacoon]

How long are we going to spend talking about the timeline


I think we should all start to talk about how awsome spirit tracks is going to be.

Well, there's gonna be an awesome train, the boomerang, an a strange item of deku craftsmanship that looks like one of those sill fans that tourist like to buy, and an Iron Knuckle (maybe) that will fight for you. So far its looking like it will be a pretty awesome game.

Oh and to answer the first question, more or less eternity.

Need MM on VC!

I second that comment

 

[MrsSaturnandWatch]

lulz
MM on teh Wiiness never felt so good xD

 

[Darkslash]

*hopes that Majora's mask is the 300'th VC game*

 

[Spire]

How long are we going to spend talking about the timeline

I think we should all start to talk about how awsome spirit tracks is going to be.

If you were around when ST was announced, we had an enormous discussion about it. Of course, that led into the timeline, and now we're back to it. It's simply the most intriguing aspect of the franchise.

Have any of you actually wondered why we're so prone to figuring out the timeline? I think it lies in the fact that Ocarina of Time was the first game to really begin the Zelda canon, as it tied into the other games (and with its release, Miyamoto announced the existing timeline). A game all about time establishes a timeline. Go figure!

I say if we want to deviate from the timeline discussion for a while, maybe we can talk about the most reasonable, and plausible designs for Zelda Wii. We can start basic, and upon coming to a generally accepted after much discussion, may go further in depth about possibly intricacies.

My guesses?
- Sequel to Twilight Princess
- Sequel to Majora's Mask (Third Hero of Time game); does not have to take place in Termina. Basically, this would be a TP-prequel, although a century[ies] earlier.

 

[toon_marth]

Oh yeah, I definitely see this as a missed opportunity for a brand new link. This will probably be a TP sequel. Personally, I hope to see another game like majora's mask, except with more dungeons. To me, TP doesn't need a sequel. It stands fine on its own.

 

[pokesmashfighter]

..........

Click on the dots to find a flaw in the timeline

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Click on the dots to find a flaw in the timeline

Just wondering, how does one split a trifirce into 4 pieces?

 

[comboking]

The pieces would not be equal.

 

[Scott!]

Just wondering, how does one split a trifirce into 4 pieces?

Well, since it seemed to come out right after the original LoZ game, it's probably the recovered and reassembled Triforce of Wisdom that Link found all of the pieces of in LoZ. I'd guess that at least that one follows LoZ, or is at least intended to, though I'd also doubt how canon they are without confirmation.

 

[Spire]

Click on the dots to find a flaw in the timeline

Those games are nothing. They were merely downgraded and simplified ports of LoZ, and with that, comes alterations in the game.

It's like debating whether vanilla OoT or Master Quest is canonical, assuming that only one of them can be, when the truth is, you either stick to the original, or adopt the idea that no matter what the dungeons or minor differences are, it's the big picture that counts.

Zelda Game & Watch was just a spin-off miniature version of LoZ so that people could play it portable.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Those games are nothing. They were merely downgraded and simplified ports of LoZ, and with that, comes alterations in the game.

It's like debating whether vanilla OoT or Master Quest is canonical, assuming that only one of them can be, when the truth is, you either stick to the original, or adopt the idea that no matter what the dungeons or minor differences are, it's the big picture that counts.

Zelda Game & Watch was just a spin-off miniature version of LoZ so that people could play it portable.

So does that mean the games come shortly after Wand of Gamelon?

 

[Spire]

I'd like to add possibly my final timeline:

If it's hard to read, the timeline(s) is as follows:

TMC - OoT:
a) WW/PH -- FS/FSA -- ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA -- LoZ/AoL
b) MM -- TP

 

[Skrlx]

Did she have any idea what she was wearing? The guy with the triforce on his tennis bag had no idea.

yeah she's a bit of a nintendo fan
but she was actually GOOD LOOKING

 

[Skrah]

That timeline is awesome graphically Spire. And I have to agree with it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'd like to add possibly my final timeline:

If it's hard to read, the timeline(s) is as follows:

TMC - OoT:
a) WW/PH -- FS/FSA -- ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA -- LoZ/AoL
b) MM -- TP

That photoshop is EPIC.

 

[comboking]

Did you do it yourself?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I just noticed from the timeline picture that the OoT shield is identical to the TP shield, but significantly different from the MM shield. Weird.

Oh, and same question as Combo King.

 

[Spire]

Yes, I made it all myself

I wouldn't slap our (and my) name on there if I hadn't.

 

[comboking]

They are different shields.

 

[Scott!]

That is one beautiful timeline.

Also, the OoT and TP shields are Hylian Shields, while the MM one is the similar Hero's Shield. Not sure why they made it different in MM, but yeah.

 

[comboking]

It must be a shield they only give to heros in hyrule.

 

[toon_marth]

Ah, so theoretically this grand story started with Minish Cap.

 

[Spire]

Also, the "Hero's Shield" that Link uses in MM featured an owl carrying the Triforce, rather than a falcon flying towards the Triforce.

The significance behind the design may be that Link, the Hero of Time's potential animal avatar could be the Owl (as TP Link's was the Wolf and ALttP's Link was the Rabbit), and so he carries the will of the Triforce into the land of Termina to save it, hence, why the savepoints are statues in the form of an owl, to save the Triforce's progress in liberating Termina. Just an idea.

Ah, so theoretically this grand story started with Minish Cap.

Yeah. I hate it, but it's probably true. When OoT came out, it provided an explanation as to why Link dons his green garbs (because it's the clothing of the Kokiri), however, if we are to include all of the games into the timeline, then TMC must take place before it, because the game was made to specifically explain why the Hero will always wear the green clothing. Plus, there are other intricacies that lead into OoT.

Also, comboking, you should probably stop typing one-liners. It makes the thread look bare, and can get you a warning/infraction. This isn't a place for chitchat, but rather in-depth discussion about the series. Contribute more, mang!

 

[Ochobobo]

Sorry I must've missed a few posts. Why did you put Four Swords, LttP and the Gameboy games in the Adult Timeline? Before we had them in the Child line.

Also, nice edits. I especially like the cutout Link's with a Drop Shadow layerstyle over each game.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Sorry I must've missed a few posts. Why did you put Four Swords, LttP and the Gameboy games in the Adult Timeline? Before we had them in the Child line.

We decided that assuming the timeline is balanced would lead to inaccuracies, because the games are most likely placed into the timeline based upon where they would fit, rather than being placed in a way that balances the two sides.

I'm not sure the exact reasoning for how they are ordered myself, but I do believe that TP is the first evidence that there is a Triforce in the child timeline. Before that, we were only certain that a triforce exists in the adult timeline, as WW was the introduction of the adult timeline triforce. Also, any Zelda games with an ocean would have to be in the adult WW timeline, because in both OoT and TP Hyrule is completely landlocked, while the Deku tree in WW wanted to rebuild Hyrule by slowly growing groves through the ocean until the islands connected together by trees and became land.

I guess Spire decided that all the games other than MM and TP fit into the timeline best in the adult side, rather than the child side, due to certain landmarks and references within the games. Also because when ALTTP originally came out, the title necesarily had to be referencing the original two games, so it probably would be in the same timeline as LoZ and AoL.

EDIT: Ah, this is why Four Swords Adventures is in the WW timeline: