The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[Espy Rose]

What I meant is that it would be a confession that the game is poorly designed, which it is. To me if you have a game with a banned character, and people making hacks to remove aspects from the game(tripping), then that tells me before I even play the game that it must have been pretty poorly put together for the community to have to do such drastic things to fix it.

So not voicing our opinion about a game that is flawed, and taking action to fix the problem is wrong? Correct me if I made the wrong assumption (I dislike it when I get the wrong idea from a post).

If what I said above IS the case, then the soft-ban of Old Sagat overseas is a message from the community over there, that says "We give up vs. Sagat"?

If getting rid of one to allow many others a chance to compete, I feel it's justified to get rid of that one, but that's my personal opinion.

I'm not really trying to side with "ban MK'. Infact, I could care less where he is placed after this is all over. I'm just saying, that we're making all of these assumptions and whatnot of what would happen to the community if he were to ban him or not.

The only real way to find out is to do what Niko is going to do.

btw, I wish him luck on that.

Soft-ban is the way to go, even though it probably won't change anything. The ones who want money will play MK, end of story.

 

[Levitas]

Hey guys, I have a possible solution to this MK predicament. It may not be everybody's favorite solution, but it is a solution nonetheless.
.
.
.
Play Melee.

I like where this is going...

 

[Duality]

What I meant is that it would be a confession that the game is poorly designed, which it is. To me if you have a game with a banned character, and people making hacks to remove aspects from the game(tripping), then that tells me before I even play the game that it must have been pretty poorly put together for the community to have to do such drastic things to fix it.

Sure, the game is poorly designed. Thanks to things like MK's ridiculousness and tripping (I don't really find that poor designed, it saves my *** sometimes and it doesn't *shrug* I could care less IMO). But a lot of games have flaws. Not like this game is any close to perfection. Plus, using hacks or banning a char to make it better, would make a poorly designed game that much better right? So why not try and get close to perfection as possible?

 

[The Real Inferno]

I never once claimed Xianghua, Yun or Eddie were the most commonly used characters in their respective games.

I'm not saying that, I was just stating an odd little fact.

The More You Know.

 

[Yuna]

If what I said above IS the case, then the soft-ban of Old Sagat overseas is a message from the community over there, that says "We give up vs. Sagat"?

AFAIK, Old Sagat is not soft-banned in Japan. Akuma is soft-banned.

A soft-ban is merely a honour code amongst the Top Echelon of players.

 

[Espy Rose]

I like where this is going...

Same. It's the best solution to date. Only problem being many won't want to move back to Melee. Hell, I'd welcome Melee back with open arms.

@Yuna: Thanks for clarifying it for me.

In that case, wouldn't it be the same message?

Yes it would, but with reason...Akuma's broken...

 

[F3ma Ch33f]

Thank God. I'd always regarded you as being among the Non-Stupid group here on Smashboards.

We ban things when they completely dominate the meta-game to such a degree you have to use it or lose... badly. It's not enough if you just lose. That's just that character being the best character in the game. And there will always be one of those, unless the game is perfectly balanced (somehow) or we ban everyone but a select few characters.

So if I ask you who someone is and you say you don't know that makes you stupid liek z0mg maybe i've never played street fighter before ever thought of that and thank you ShadowLink for answering my question and not being such a smart *** unlike someone in this thread.

 

[Doggalina]

AFAIK, Old Sagat is not soft-banned in Japan. Akuma is soft-banned.

A soft-ban is merely a honour code amongst the Top Echelon of players.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan—a soft ban—on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more “gameplay.” Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

That sounds familiar.

 

[Espy Rose]

So if I ask you who someone is and you say you don't know that makes you stupid liek z0mg maybe i've never played street fighter before ever thought of that and thank you ShadowLink for answering my question and not being such a smart *** unlike someone in this thread.

True, but still. It'd be nice if we didn't go off the topic just to answer a question that could've been answered by Google, Wikipedia, or another source.

A soft-ban is merely a honour code amongst the Top Echelon of players.

Soft-banning would indeed make an effect on the scene, but now I'm not so sure it would make a big difference, since it's only amongst "the Top Echelon of players".

Guess that makes MK available to anyone not in the top, eh?

**** shame, if anything.

@Doggalina: Thanks for clearing it up for me. I knew Old-Sagat was soft banned, but wasn't too sure if I was 100% correct.

**** you Yuna...making me believe in the contrary...

 

[brg]

I honestly think snake is more broken than mk

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hey guys, I have a possible solution to this MK predicament. It may not be everybody's favorite solution, but it is a solution nonetheless.
.
.
.
Play Melee.

No sonic makes me sad =(

 

[Yuna]

@Yuna: Thanks for clarifying it for me.

In that case, wouldn't it be the same message?

Yes it would, but with reason...Akuma's broken...

Meta-Knight is nowhere near as good as Akuma.

So if I ask you who someone is and you say you don't know that makes you stupid liek z0mg maybe i've never played street fighter before ever thought of that and thank you ShadowLink for answering my question and not being such a smart *** unlike someone in this thread.

It takes maybe 1 minute to Google the word "Akuma" + fighting game (not that you need it as just "Akuma" in itself will give you Akuma's Wikipedia page at the top of the results) and skim his page. 5, tops, to get a general lowdown on him. 10, tops, to read the entire page.

It took 33 minutes before ShadowLink took pity on you and answered the question for you. It would've taken longer if this thread had been less used and ShadowLink hadn't taken pity on you.

It would also have saved ShadowLink the time and effort to write up the answer you could've easily found within 1-10 minutes by simply using Google.

If you need to know something, use Google first. Then try Wikipedia (personally, I Wikipedia first, then I Google). Only if you cannot find the answer, or an adequate answer, to your queery after Googling and Wikipediaing should you ask about it on a message board.

**** you Yuna...making me believe in the contrary...

I remembered it wrong. Apparently, both Akuma and Old Sagat are soft-banned in Japan (Akuma is banned in the U.S. and Old Sagat is 100% legal everywhere else). It's heavily contested that Old Sagat is even the best character in the game.

BTW, Meta-Knight isn't even Old Sagat-level. Meta-Knight still has quite a few matchups that are either even or quite even.

But then again, the Japanese are weird. If we're gonna do everything the Japanese do, then we should only play on Final Destination and Yoshi's Story in Melee and god knows what they've cooked up for Brawl.

 

[RDK]

I guess Yun, X and Eds are all Bottom Tier.All Hail the mighty LeeHarris who knows better than the combined fighting game communities of the world!

Lee Harris doesn't even know that much about Brawl; why would one assume he knows anything about actual competitive fighters is beyond me.

So not voicing our opinion about a game that is flawed, and taking action to fix the problem is wrong? Correct me if I made the wrong assumption (I dislike it when I get the wrong idea from a post).

If what I said above IS the case, then the soft-ban of Old Sagat overseas is a message from the community over there, that says "We give up vs. Sagat"?

If getting rid of one to allow many others a chance to compete, I feel it's justified to get rid of that one, but that's my personal opinion.

I'm not really trying to side with "ban MK'. Infact, I could care less where he is placed after this is all over. I'm just saying, that we're making all of these assumptions and whatnot of what would happen to the community if he were to ban him or not.

The only real way to find out is to do what Niko is going to do.

btw, I wish him luck on that.

Soft-ban is the way to go, even though it probably won't change anything. The ones who want money will play MK, end of story.

It's not so much that Old Sagat was a problem for the community; it's just that they believed game diversity was ultimately more important. It was more like the top players agreeing to not use him more than an actual outright ban.

Akuma, on the other hand, was a rut for the community. Being able to fireball your opponent into a corner and walk faster than your projectile posed some problems.

Soft-banning would indeed make an effect on the scene, but now I'm not so sure it would make a big difference, since it's only amongst "the Top Echelon of players".

Guess that makes MK available to anyone not in the top, eh?

It wouldn't really make that kind of difference anyway, because as soon as the people who started using MK began to progress into the top echelon, the whole point of soft banning would be moot.

 

[The Real Inferno]

AFAIK, Old Sagat is not soft-banned in Japan. Akuma is soft-banned.

A soft-ban is merely a honour code amongst the Top Echelon of players.

Alot of people got the info on the soft bans from the "Playing to Win" article in which Old Sagat is showing signifigant signs of becoming a Soft Ban in Japan as well as fewer and fewer of the top players will pick him up anymore. I can't vouch for the validity of that statement, as it's just an internet article of course.

 

[MarKO X]

Umm...

10 ShinMetaKnights?

No, let me get to my point, what if there was a soft ban on MK? A noob who enters the scene after said "soft ban," could pick MK and still get into the top 8, no?

If yes, then that's the problem with MK.

 

[cutter]

MK is not Black Lotus..

Very true; it's more like:

MK = Psychatog
Akuma = Yawgmoth's Will

 

[acv]

Umm...

10 ShinMetaKnights?

No, let me get to my point, what if there was a soft ban on MK? A noob who enters the scene after said "soft ban," could pick MK and still get into the top 8, no?

If yes, then that's the problem with MK.

noobs dont get in the top 8.even if they are using MK.

 

[RDK]

Umm...

10 ShinMetaKnights?

No, let me get to my point, what if there was a soft ban on MK? A noob who enters the scene after said "soft ban," could pick MK and still get into the top 8, no?

If yes, then that's the problem with MK.

I think the inherent fact that they're a n00b would mean that just playing MK wouldn't be enought to overtake players who actually know what they're doing with other characters.

Alot of people got the info on the soft bans from the "Playing to Win" article in which Old Sagat is showing signifigant signs of becoming a Soft Ban in Japan as well as fewer and fewer of the top players will pick him up anymore. I can't vouch for the validity of that statement, as it's just an internet article of course.

I don't know about Japan, but Old Sagat is definetely legal in the US.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I think we could resolve all this arguing with a trial period, like people ahve been suggesting, of either a SOFTBAN of MK, or just banning him from the tourny scene altogether temporary, then we can get some hard data instead of everyone's bias opinions. Everything looks good on paper, but doesn't always carry over to real life.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Umm...

10 ShinMetaKnights?

No, let me get to my point, what if there was a soft ban on MK? A noob who enters the scene after said "soft ban," could pick MK and still get into the top 8, no?

If yes, then that's the problem with MK.

No cause noobs suck.
Its like Akuma and Old sagat, a non will never win. They'll get butt ***** and laughed at afterwards.

@RDK: Old Sagat is soft banned as well.

 

[Yuna]

@RDK: Old Sagat is soft banned as well.

Only in Japan, not in the U.S. (or anywhere else for that matter).

 

[Gindler]

If MK was banned wouldn't they have to Ban Snake G&W and D3 soon after? If they ban MK then there'll just be a chain reaction until C. Falcon is the only character allowed.

 

[Doggalina]

If MK was banned wouldn't they have to Ban Snake G&W and D3 soon after? If they ban MK then there'll just be a chain reaction until C. Falcon is the only character allowed.

That's the point of MK-free tourneys. I'm of the opinion that that WOULDN'T happen, but only real data will show the truth.

 

[Espy Rose]

I think we could resolve all this arguing with a trial period, like people ahve been suggesting, of either a SOFTBAN of MK, or just banning him from the tourny scene altogether temporary, then we can get some hard data instead of everyone's bias opinions. Everything looks good on paper, but doesn't always carry over to real life.

Exactly what RDK and I have been saying.

Although now I'm convinced that not even a soft-ban would really work. If anything, having side tournaments that ban MK would be the only "solution" to this argument, in the same style that there were Low-Tier tournaments back in Melee.

Even then, I haven't a clue anymore.

 

[popsofctown]

You'd need multiple Meta-free tournaments though.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

So not voicing our opinion about a game that is flawed, and taking action to fix the problem is wrong? Correct me if I made the wrong assumption (I dislike it when I get the wrong idea from a post).

If what I said above IS the case, then the soft-ban of Old Sagat overseas is a message from the community over there, that says "We give up vs. Sagat"?

If getting rid of one to allow many others a chance to compete, I feel it's justified to get rid of that one, but that's my personal opinion.

I'm not really trying to side with "ban MK'. Infact, I could care less where he is placed after this is all over. I'm just saying, that we're making all of these assumptions and whatnot of what would happen to the community if he were to ban him or not.

The only real way to find out is to do what Niko is going to do.

btw, I wish him luck on that.

Soft-ban is the way to go, even though it probably won't change anything. The ones who want money will play MK, end of story.

You misunderstand, I don't mean to knock on the people who are fighting to make the game more competetively viable, in fact I strongly support the "no tripping" code. My point was just that it is a shame that we have been reduced to such drastic tactics because of a subpar game. We find ourselves running threw the source code in an attempt to find some way to turn an obviously non-competetive game into a competetive one.

Again though, I don't mean to insult those who are trying, in fact I support them. I loved Melee and would like nothing more than for someone to find a way to make Brawl competetive on the same level. I just find it sad that we where dealt such a poor hand that this is what we are forced to do about it.

Back on topic though, a soft-ban may work. I don't think it is truly neccessary, but if enough other people are really that bothered by MK then I guess you do what you have to do. But a full ban does seem to be overdoing it.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Only in Japan, not in the U.S. (or anywhere else for that matter).

What about Caketown?

 

[Espy Rose]

You misunderstand, I don't mean to knock on the people who are fighting to make the game more competetively viable, in fact I strongly support the "no tripping" code. My point was just that it is a shame that we have been reduced to such drastic tactics because of a subpar game. We find ourselves running threw the source code in an attempt to find some way to turn an obviously non-competetive game into a competetive one.

Again though, I don't mean to insult those who are trying, in fact I support them. I loved Melee and would like nothing more than for someone to find a way to make Brawl competetive on the same level. I just find it sad that we where dealt such a poor hand that this is what we are forced to do about it.

Back on topic though, a soft-ban may work. I don't think it is truly neccessary, but if enough other people are really that bothered by MK then I guess you do what you have to do. But a full ban does seem to be overdoing it.

I see where you went with it now, and yes, it's very dissapointing. If anything, we could go back to Melee, but as a post read earlier: No Sonic makes me sad.

I also like the No-Tripping code.

Soft-banning is one option of course, but I want to see the results of a no-MK tournament, just to see how it changes the results around a little bit. Besides, having side tournaments without MK could possibly bring in the crowd that is "bothered" by MK.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't go through a similar phase against MK.

 

[MorphedChaos]

All the people who hate meta could also just drop out of all competition, then how would the game fair then? maybe the monkies will finally realize their mistake?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Only in Japan, not in the U.S. (or anywhere else for that matter).

Whoops misread RDKs post. Thought he meant Japan not the U.S.

 

[Grunt]

Guilty Gear XX Acccent Core - Eddie is the best character in the game. Eddie has no bad matchups (I could be wrong here) - Eddie is so good, he's in S Tier (along with Testament), a tier above Top Tier
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Yun is the best character in the game. he has no bad matchups
Soul Calibur II - Xianghua was the best character in the game with, I believe, 0 bad matchups. Maybe 1 or 2, I'm not sure

And the list goes on. All of those had/have either favourable matchups or even ones against the entire cast. Guess what, none of those character were/are banned.

The main difference here is these games have had time to mature. X Yun and Eddie may be at the "No bad matchups, but still beatable" stage, but Brawl is what, 5 months old? and MK is already at that stage. as it stands right now, he is not ban worthy, but in the future, there is a good chance he will surpass the earlier mentioned stage.

or he will have some huge flaw and become worse, but i doubt it.

 

[Yuna]

The main difference here is these games have had time to mature. X Yun and Eddie may be at the "No bad matchups, but still beatable" stage, but Brawl is what, 5 months old? and MK is already at that stage. as it stands right now, he is not ban worthy, but in the future, there is a good chance he will surpass the earlier mentioned stage.

or he will have some huge flaw and become worse, but i doubt it.

BS logic.

What makes you think that as the game matures, MK's meta-game will be the only one to progress? What about Snake, G&W and High Tier? Or some of Mid Tier with potential?

MK is on X's, Yun's and Eddie's level. How does this make him ban-worthy? If he becomes Akuma-ish level, then we'll ban him. He's not there yet, neither on paper, in practice or in tourney results. We won't ban him just because he might become Akuma-level!

Especially when there are no indications of such ATM.

 

[Espy Rose]

BS logic.

What makes you think that as the game matures, MK's meta-game will be the only one to progress? What about Snake, G&W and High Tier? Or some of Mid Tier with potential?

MK is on X's, Yun's and Eddie's level. How does this make him ban-worthy? If he becomes Akuma-ish level, then we'll ban him. He's not there yet, neither on paper, in practice or in tourney results. We won't ban him just because he might become Akuma-level!

Especially when there are no indications of such ATM.

Problem is, is that everyone is playing with MK so much that other characters' meta-games aren't developing as well.

It's going to take quite some time before any other character, save for the top tiers, becomes anywhere near developed enough to take on MK successfully. Alot of people just don't want to bother playing MK with a character underdeveloped for the situation. People don't want to wait for MK to **** some more, people want him gone.

Either way, this is a dangerous (or at least irritating) position for Brawl's competitive community, and there are no doubts that it's entirely MK's fault for being too good without being overly good. God****it MK, why did you have to be such a ***?

 

[MorphedChaos]

Why is it that MK players are the only ones to defend him? I call Bias and blasphemy. Have a trial period of some non meta tournies, and collect Data. It would satisfy most if not all the MK haters, possibly not ban him, and everyone will be happy. Could this be agreeable to the people in the "Backroom"?

 

[RDK]

The main difference here is these games have had time to mature. X Yun and Eddie may be at the "No bad matchups, but still beatable" stage, but Brawl is what, 5 months old? and MK is already at that stage. as it stands right now, he is not ban worthy, but in the future, there is a good chance he will surpass the earlier mentioned stage.

or he will have some huge flaw and become worse, but i doubt it.

The problem is that you're not taking into account any other characters or variables. Barring some deus ex machina universal advanced technique that flys out of god's ***, which I highly doubt, it may seem like MK will stay in the position he is right now, but that's still not cause for concern (as far as bans go). Assuming MK will progress while no one else will is just silly.

You'd need multiple Meta-free tournaments though.

I think someone said they were already planning on hosting one soon, so if more and more people start doing it we can compare the results and see if its worthwhile or not.

Remember though that even if it turns out that MK-free tournaments are good for developing the metagame of other characters, this doesn't mean it'll catch on, especially with the top echelon of competitives. When you get down to it, you're playing to win.

 

[Brinzy]

****, how does someone always get a post in before me? Stop making me quote!

Problem is, is that everyone is playing with MK so much that other characters' meta-games aren't developing as well.

As the game matures, people who are tabooing MK already from their playing list will develop the metagame of everyone else. Yeah, they won't develop as fast, but they shall develop as time passes.'

 

[Espy Rose]

The problem is that you're not taking into account any other characters or variables. Barring some deus ex machina universal advanced technique that flys out of god's ***, which I highly doubt, it may seem like MK will stay in the position he is right now, but that's still not cause for concern (as far as bans go). Assuming MK will progress while no one else will is just silly.



I think someone said they were already planning on hosting one soon, so if more and more people start doing it we can compare the results and see if its worthwhile or not.

Remember though that even if it turns out that MK-free tournaments are good for developing the metagame of other characters, this doesn't mean it'll catch on, especially with the top echelon of competitives. When you get down to it, you're playing to win.

The entire goal, I believe, is to enrich other characters meta-games without MK, since he makes those characters not necessarily "unplayable", but not plausible.

Even if it doesn't "catch-on", it can still be used as a side-tournament to regular Brawl tournaments.

As the game matures, people who are tabooing MK already from their playing list will develop the metagame of everyone else. Yeah, they won't develop as fast, but they shall develop as time passes.'

Definately true, although the lack of development can be affiliated with the increase in MKs, and the lack of diversity due to the meta-game as a whole.

 

[Duality]

Why is it that MK players are the only ones to defend him? I call Bias and blasphemy.

Well that's simple. They don't want to lose MK 'cause they know they'll have a bigger chance of losing without him.

 

[Steel]

Seriously, do it for the sake of brawl's competitive future.

 

[slikvik]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190642

just get better...