The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[okiyama]

Banning metaknight will hurt all the metaknight players by forcing them to play another character. Imagine if someone said "nope, your main is banned... play someone else" it'll suck for a little while but once they get used to another character it'll be fine.

You asked for flaws, I gave you flaws.

 

[SuSa]

Banning metaknight will hurt all the metaknight players by forcing them to play another character. Imagine if someone said "nope, your main is banned... play someone else" it'll suck for a little while but once they get used to another character it'll be fine.

You asked for flaws, I gave you flaws.

Secondaries. Heard of them?

Hell, I have 7 mains :s and I use MK for fun because I don't even need to try to win most matches...

 

[MorphedChaos]

Banning metaknight will hurt all the metaknight players by forcing them to play another character. Imagine if someone said "nope, your main is banned... play someone else" it'll suck for a little while but once they get used to another character it'll be fine.

You asked for flaws, I gave you flaws.

No one said we were banning meta yet, so thats void for the moment, We just wanna test a few no meta Tournies and see what happens, we aren't banning him, more like Soft banning him like in Japan.

 

[Espy Rose]

Banning metaknight will hurt all the metaknight players by forcing them to play another character. Imagine if someone said "nope, your main is banned... play someone else" it'll suck for a little while but once they get used to another character it'll be fine.

You asked for flaws, I gave you flaws.

But MK isn't going to be banned, that's something that's already been acknowledged.

However, there's nothing stopping a TO from deciding, "You know what? Let's ban MK for this tournament."

I'm just curious as to how the meta-game of the other characters will develop with MK out of the scene for several tournaments. They don't even have to be main events, just something so that we could see if there is any correlation between Meta Knight users and number of different characters used.

Also, what Havokk said, not considering that you solved your own "flaw" by saying the bolded part.

 

[Duality]

I mock MK when I decide to play as him and still get some wins in..

Ahhh nostalgic. It reminds me of the time my friend was maining Link in Melee and he'd do up B a lot and said it was over powered so I picked Link and did nothing but up B and won.

 

[Yuna]

Quote me where I said one should never ever hold experimental Meta-less tourneys. I'm merely saying that regardless of the findings, Meta-Knight is not (yet) ban-worthy, thus, it would be a pretty big waste of time.

Wario: 5/5
Diddy: 5/5
Falco: 5/5
Fox: 5/5
G&W: 5/5
(There are probably more. I don't particularly feel like looking through more character-guide threads)

It seems like Snake tends to have even matchups against characters with good aerials.

I meant the supposed bad matchups Puffball claims exist.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Oh, I bet I could beat any person in the Broom who doesn't use MK with MK, I wounder what they would do then? All I have to do is Nado Nado Nado...

/sarcasm

Ok, Seriously, WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BANNING MK! Just test, Now what do you say about that Yuna?

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

Secondaries. Heard of them?

Hell, I have 7 mains :s and I use MK for fun because I don't even need to try to win most matches...

You just made a little flaw in your argument. Alot of people still play meta-knight as there secondary because he's fun. Some people are just good enough with there primary main. (I am not one of these people by the way, I don't want to sound cocky :/)

Seriously, who doesn't like to play as a masked hyperactive blue ball with bat wings and funny shoes? :D


EDIT: Duality, I was adding on to the (now dead) MK ban discussion. My post didn't have anything to do with an MK only tourne.

 

[Duality]

But then what if the Meta-less tourneys turn out to be a success?


As for the guy above me, if MK is their second, then use your primary for the MK-less tourneys..

 

[QNZ_RAFA]

We've had this topic pop up more and more recently, and I'm not interested in closing tons of threads on the same topic, so lets try to localize all discussion of "banning Metaknight" to this thread.

My personal opinion is that, yes, Metaknight is the best character in the game. And yes, there is a gap between MK and every other character at this point in time. But it is WAY too early to even think about banning a character. Too early to even mention it. MK is still beatable. Yeah, MK doesn't really have any "bad" matchups, but that doesn't mean he's unstoppable. Thus, this entire topic is silly and useless IMO.

And if anybody is wondering, characters or techniques are generally banned if they prove to be overwhelmingly powerful and they dominate tournaments without hope of anything else being able to win. If MK becomes the only viable competitive character, which probably won't ever happen, then that merits a ban.

im sorry but...i cant say much about this post except for how silly you sound saying this. He's the greatest character in the game, He has his own tier , the gap between him and the next best character is huge yet IT DOESNT WARRANT A BAN, BECAUSE HE'S NOT UNBEATABLE.

Ummmmm.... of course he's not UNBEATABLE.. I'll just hand the joystiq to a toddler and whoop his behind and then there.... your theory is correct. you have to be 5X better than your opponent in order to beat a metaknight. this game has THIRTY some odd characters. Smash is a fighting game with not a big move list behind each character which means that when you take a fighting game like this ,and put that many characters, it becomes a counter pick game. and guess what..everyone has more than 5 counters, while metaknight has NONE!! only matches that stand a chance and yet you still say he doesnt warrant a ban.

I say this to everyone that says this. You either play as MK or dont have alot of MK users around you, but the character in every way is BROKEN! BAN HIM! if you wait TOO LONG, ppl will get to comfortable having him around that he'll never get banned. and NO you cant compare him to FOX from melee cuz marth, sheik and falco were all on equal footing w/ fox. you just cant compare TOP TIER to GOD TIER.

 

[WaterTails]

But then what if the Meta-less tourneys turn out to be a success?


As for the guy above me, if MK is their second, then use your primary for the MK-less tourneys..

That's kind of a weak argument. One could also say that they would be a failure.

The thing is, the non-Meta tournaments may not have that many people go. Do you remember the Evo ruleset? There were like a hundred people. That kinda goes to show you that if a smasher (or a group of them, in the case of Evo, people who care about the game. In this case, people who main Meta) would be willing to pseudo-boycott a tournament.

 

[RedrappeR]

Uhh that would be the case if every other person wasn't MK. Smash community has a bad rep? Only way I'd see that is MK's fault. But it doesn't even have it. How would anyone put time and effort into solving MK's problem? Setting a limit to how many people can be him? Everyone else spending their time training to get better and have potential to beat an MK mainer? (Who won't spend nearly as much time).

It's called getting better. People are going to use the character more and more if it produces results.

All this time you spend *****ing you could be practicing to beat him. Go do it.

 

[Yuna]

Oh, I bet I could beat any person in the Broom who doesn't use MK with MK, I wounder what they would do then? All I have to do is Nado Nado Nado...

/sarcasm

Ok, Seriously, WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BANNING MK! Just test, Now what do you say about that Yuna?

Read... the... post... that... came... before... this (yours)... ones.

In fact, read my past 5 or so posts in this thread.

 

[Doggalina]

That's kind of a weak argument. One could also say that they would be a failure.

Yeah, people can say a lot of stuff. However, talk is cheap. The only thing that matters is what REALLY happens.

Suggestion: Maybe try MK-free side tourneys at larger ones. It's an interesting idea, but the side tourney could end up as big as the main one, causing some time problems.

 

[MorphedChaos]

If Meta tournies end up being good, then we'll most likely have to ban Meta, as he, if my hypothesis is right, wouldn't be there to hamper other character's chance of being in tournies, maybe we might even see a more balanced teir list?

And Yuna, maybe I missed it? So, could you repost it for me? I mean, your obviously so much better then me and stuff, so enlighten us little people, why don't you?

 

[Doggalina]

If Meta tournies end up being good, then we'll most likely have to ban Meta, as he, if my hypothesis is right, wouldn't be there to hamper other character's chance of being in tournies, maybe we might even see a more balanced teir list?

I don't think Meta would get banned even if MK really does inhibit variety. Character banning is a very serious thing, after all.

 

[Yuna]

If Meta tournies end up being good, then we'll most likely have to ban Meta, as he, if my hypothesis is right, wouldn't be there to hamper other character's chance of being in tournies, maybe we might even see a more balanced teir list?

No, we wouldn't. If you'd bothered to actually read my posts, you would know why.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

This is getting sad. This thread has quickly fallen into a predictable pattern.

1. Someone whines
2. Yuna tells them to shut up
3. Someone misquotes Yuna
4. Bickering ensues

MK is good, he is not broken, just annoying. If your main sucks against him pick a secondary and start practicing.

EDIT: and for the record you don't really NEED a secondary, just practice. I spent a lot of time practicing the DeDeDe/MK matchup and now I can handle it fairly well, even though its a terrible matchup for him. I'm not saying I beat every MK I face, but practice does help.

 

[Duality]

That's kind of a weak argument. One could also say that they would be a failure.

Well it's either use a primary or not go I guess.

But I mean like what if things are a lot better without MK?


@RedRapper

Even if I was at their skill level, MK wins unless I get lucky. And the point was that that's a rediculous amount of training.

 

[Espy Rose]

Quote me where I said one should never ever hold experimental Meta-less tourneys.

Was that directed at me? If so, I only said that there's nothing wrong with testing, you replying with something along the lines of "There's no reason to do so."

Unless of course, that statement was directed toward the action of banning MK, which I would agree with.

I meant the supposed bad matchups Puffball claims exist

Wow, I didn't think you'd go as far as thinking that I'd make up "fake" evidence. You don't trust anyone, do you?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515

1. Someone whines
2. Yuna tells them to shut up
3. Someone misquotes Yuna
4. Bickering ensues

Actually, it's more along the lines of:

1. Someone makes a valid proposition
2. Yuna tells him/her to shut up
3. Bickering ensures

Misunderstanding plays a big part between steps 1-2 and 2-3, as this is the internet.

Oh, I forgot to mention that one person here or there who actually does whine, in that sense, making your list correct, but only when applied to the whiners. I apologize.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Ok, everyone, can we all agree to ignore Yuna and his rule now? yes? Ok, So how should we work with the Non meta tournies? Same rules as other turnies besides no MK?

And Yuna, Stop being a close minded fool, all I have to say. I See NO posts of yours that tell your view, or make logical sense, so please just stop embarrassing yourself, it doesn't make you look good.

 

[QNZ_RAFA]

I cant stand this topic. I'll explain why.

The only way to prove to the ppl that you dont believe MK should be banned is by playing MK himself and showing them that its easy to win w/ him. HOWEVER, I DONT WANT TO PLAY AS MK, I do want to some how find a way to counter him. BUT JUST becuz i find a way to counter him, doesnt mean he STILL shouldnt be banned. the character is way too unbalanced. he's SUPERIOR to every other character. so you have....pick MK and show everyone how good you can do if he's so broken, you either succeed and wasted time playing as a character you dont like and the end result is he gets banned or you succeed at finding a counter against him then your happy about how hard you tried, but then the MK users use this opportunity to say...YOU SEE...HE'S NOT "UNBEATABLE" (hate this word) and then you end up losing in the long run.

UNBEATABLE...the only way a character is UNBEATABLE is if you hit him and he takes no damage. ppl PLEASE STOP USING THIS WORD..its soo STUPID. it all depends on who your playing and what skill level they are at.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

There is no point to ban MK, he's not that broken. He's very good, but not bannable broken. I think people are just finding it difficult that their character probably sucks at fighting MK, since all the low tiers suck vs him(except for Yoshi >.>) But people, there are neutral matchups vs MK. Youre just gonna have to suck all your "pride" of maining Ike and get a secondary especially for this matchup. I main DK, and he obviously has a 90-10 matchup vs D3. So I have to have a secondary just for this matchup. It's pretty much the same, since MK has a 80-20 ish advantage over alot of people. Don't go cursing MK to hell because you lost him with Ike; Go learn Snake, Diddy, DK, Yoshi, ZSS, MK or anobdy with a close matchup, it's Brawl, getting good with a character takes no time. If you lose then, then it's not MK's fault, it's your's since youre just not as good as your opponent.

 

[Yuna]

Even if I was at their skill level, MK wins unless I get lucky. And the point was that that's a rediculous amount of training.

Oh noes! You might have to work! To practice! And there are some matchups that are bads for your main(s)!

Ok, everyone, can we all agree to ignore Yuna and his rule now? yes? Ok, So how should we work with the Non meta tournies? Same rules as other turnies besides no MK?

And Yuna, Stop being a close minded fool, all I have to say. I See NO posts of yours that tell your view, or make logical sense, so please just stop embarrassing yourself, it doesn't make you look good.

How about you stop whining for one second and read the many posts in which I outlined why we cannot ban Meta-Knight (at this moment), why we shouldn't ban him and why the Meta-less tourneys will be largely futile (and Scrubby). Also, what rule? "Shut up if you have no idea what you're talking about"? Yes, what a horrible rule!

Funny how often I hear stuff like this. Total nobodies whose arguments I crush whine about me being close-minded. Those who actually know about Competitive fighting games and Smash applaud me.

Then, later, the SBR releases a ruleset that agrees 100% with what I've been saying for months. I'm not saying I swayed them or that I had a part in shaping the rules, I'm saying that what I'm saying is what most SBR:ers would be saying if they'd bothered to come here.

Wow, I didn't think you'd go as far as thinking that I'd make up "fake" evidence. You don't trust anyone, do you?

I see four supposedly bad matchups. I'll say some of them are a bit exaggerated, but yeah, he has 4. Whooooo. Horrible. Now do G&W.

 

[Duality]

Oh noes! You might have to work! To practice! And there are some matchups that are bads for your main(s)!.

Wow. I didn't even whine about working, I was exaggerating the fact that to even come close to MK I'd have to practice a long *** time. GG on failing how to read. But since you took it that way, why should I have to work if MK doesn't? Especially if he has no bad match ups?



"Funny how often I hear stuff like this. Total nobodies whose arguments I crush whine about me being close-minded. Those who actually know about Competitive fighting games and Smash applaud me."

+Ego for Yuna.

 

[Johnknight1]

For those of you who say you can't compare Fox and Meta Knight in Melee, you are right-but that's just because Fox is way more broken. Sure Pikachu, Snake, and others can keep up with Meta Knight, and Marth, Falco, and others keep up with Fox. But at the end of the day, Fox in Melee is wayyy more broken. Let me ask you this:

-Can Meta Knight turn one mistake into an instant KO?
-Can Meta Knight wrack up almost 40% damage from just too moves?
-Can Meta Knight combo for well over 50% easily?
-Can Meta Knight outrun you and camp you with projectiles with incredible speed?
-Does Meta Knight have multiple quick moves that can do almost as much damage as a Falcon Punch?

Meta Knight in a lot of ways reminds me of Melee Sheik when the Melee competitive scene was young. Everyone used Sheik, and Sheik was without a question the most broken character (at that point), and was easy to pick up as well. Then Fox and Falco came along...and were even more broken then Sheik (except in the PAL version, in which Sheik still remains as the top tier if I remember correctly! ).

Hopefully we don't have a modern day Melee Fox or Falco (or even worse: SMASH 64 PIKACHU!)...

 

[IShotLazer]

I have absolutely no doubt that banning Metaknight would immensely expand on how Brawl would/can be play. However I don't think there is anything all too sufficient at the moment to warrant a ban. I think there should be serious consideration on banning Metaknight for the games sake.
Obviously we need more time, but this might need to be stickied just so we can remind ourselves of the idea. Brawl needs to consist of more than one character.

 

[Yuna]

Wow. I didn't even whine about working, I was exaggerating the fact that to even come close to MK I'd have to practice a long *** time. GG on failing how to read. But since you took it that way, why should I have to work if MK doesn't? Especially if he has no bad match ups?

Practice = Work.

Also, in what alternate universe does Meta auto-win? He has plenty of 5-5 and 4-5 matchups. He has to still fight tooth and nail to win those. You still have to work to win with 3-6 matchups, too. You just have to work less. If you don't want to work hard, then play Meta. If you wish to play a comparatively bad character, then stop whining and just do it.

BTW, what many people seem to forget is that a great number of Meta-Knight's wins and top placings are the results of a small group of elite players. It's like how Ken dominated the scene for years. No, Marth wasn't overpowered and bannable. Ken was just really, really good.

Mew2King is going around racking up many wins. Don't blame MK, blame M2K.

 

[Duality]

Practice = Work.

Did I not just say that in my last post? Again GG.

 

[MorphedChaos]

And again you shove your "superiority" down everyone's throat. Some leader you are, how did you get your position? Bribery? You don't even acknowledge the fact that MK has no bad counters, maybe 4 matchups where hes equal, and 30 or so matchups where MK dominates 90/10 (thats sarcasm). What do you say about all that data that isn't Bias? Please, I'd love to know.

And what is with calling everyone scrubs? You don't see me calling anyone names, maybe you, but right now your deserving it, yet your insulting someone who might not even be in this convo, thats not cool dude, thats not cool.

 

[GofG]

“It’s Too Good!”

Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

Let me run that by you again.

Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

If we ban the best character in the game, all we have done is reduced the game to second-best characters.

You wanna argue against Sirlin?

Go ahead.
<3 yuna

 

[ShadowLink84]

As to spare you a long lecture from Yuna on your incorrectness.

And again you shove your "superiority" down everyone's throat. Some leader you are, how did you get your position? Bribery?

Considering he has been around for a long time and has much more knowledge about competitive fighting games as well as smash it makes sense for himt o have sucha position.

If he's an *******, he is a very very smart *******.

You don't even acknowledge the fact that MK has no bad counters, maybe 4 matchups where hes equal, and 30 or so matchups where MK dominates 90/10 (thats sarcasm). What do you say about all that data that isn't Bias? Please, I'd love to know.

in most matches he is 6-3 or 6-4 so its not an overwhelming.
Simply pick a match thats 50-50.
Falco and DK are good candidates as are snake. That means you'd have equal footing and so if you win or he wins, tis due to skill not him having an advantage.

 

[Yuna]

And again you shove your "superiority" down everyone's throat.

I know a lot about the game and Competitive gaming. You obviously does not. I don't argue science with people who know more than me on the subject, hint hint.

Did I not just say that in my last post? Again GG.

You whined about not having talked about having to work. I explained that you talked about practice and that practice = work.

Also, way to ignore 90% of my post since you couldn't refute it.

Some leader you are, how did you get your position? Bribery?

When did I ever claim to be some sort of "leader"?

You don't even acknowledge the fact that MK has no bad counters, maybe 4 matchups where hes equal, and 30 or so matchups where MK dominates 90/10 (thats sarcasm). What do you say about all that data that isn't Bias? Please, I'd love to know.

How about the many posts in which I said he's not winning by such a large margin he should be banned, that having no bad matchups simply makes him the best character, but that isn't reason enough.

And what is with calling everyone scrubs?

I only call Scrubs Scrubs.

You don't see me calling anyone names, maybe you, but right now your deserving it, yet your insulting someone who might not even be in this convo, thats not cool dude, thats not cool.

A Scrub is a type of person, not a slur (I don't use it as such). It's like getting upset if I say "You're a gamer!".

Also:

And Yuna, Stop being a close minded fool, all I have to say.

I see hypocrisy and early onset senility are strong within you. I said the tournaments would be scrubby, as in the tournament rulesets themselves. It was in no way a reflection on the attendees.

Also, you most probably have the wrong definition of "scrub". Scrub =/= N00b.

 

[KoJ]

Okay, first of all, Yuna is right. Meta is not being banned, and that's that. A character can only be banned if it's NEAR unbeatable.

Secondly, Yuna, go stroke your ego somewhere else.

Thirdly, go do your Meta-less tournament. Won't make a difference.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

And again you shove your "superiority" down everyone's throat. Some leader you are, how did you get your position? Bribery? You don't even acknowledge the fact that MK has no bad counters, maybe 4 matchups where hes equal, and 30 or so matchups where MK dominates 90/10 (thats sarcasm). What do you say about all that data that isn't Bias? Please, I'd love to know.

And what is with calling everyone scrubs? You don't see me calling anyone names, maybe you, but right now your deserving it, yet your insulting someone who might not even be in this convo, thats not cool dude, thats not cool.

Oh snap someone is saying the truth questioning Yuna's wisdom

 

[Duality]

You whined about not having talked about having to work. I explained that you talked about practice and that practice = work.

*siiigh* Ok lemme run this by you again since you fail. Red told me to go practice and I told him that why should I have to work when MK doesn't? Then it goes on to working to surpass MK and I said sure, but the hours spent is rediculous. (As in I was talking countless hours. Exaggeration, you know?)

Sooo then you go on repeating what I said? I don't know what you were trying to tell me. I didn't whine about working, I whined about how MK doesn't have to and if I did work I'd spend a million hours and still have a negligible chance. It's called exaggeration.

 

[Yuna]

Oh snap someone is saying the truth questioning Yuna's wisdom

More like someone is spouting nonsense as most of what he said wasn't even true.

 

[Duality]

Let me run that by you again.



If we ban the best character in the game, all we have done is reduced the game to second-best characters.

You wanna argue against Sirlin?

Go ahead.
<3 yuna

Well that'd make a **** good game wouldn't it? A game without brokenness. A game without characters noobs can pick up and be winning money from tourneys.

And saying Snake (assuming it's a player playing a perfect Snake) is a second best, that's saying a lot about MK. But I won't argue about this anymore, afterall I just want some MK-less tourneys and have hopes that he'll be banned from major tourneys.

 

[Espy Rose]

Take this how you will Yuna:

Character match-up sheet #1: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

According to this list, G@W has 3 Disadvantages, and 3 neutral matches. Pretty decent, and it explains pretty well why he is so high in the tier list.

Character match-up sheet #2: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186338

According to this list, G@W has 1 neutral match, and the rest aren't even tested out, and left completely blank.

This is off topic a little, yes?

-----

Let me try to steer this back on topic though. Let's analyze MK's match-ups, according to these sheets:

Sheet #1 gives MK 2 "Small Disadvantages" and 3 Neutral matches.
Sheet #2 gives MK 0 Bad matches, of course none are analyzed.

Perhaps if we tested with some side No-MK tournaments, we could see how affected the meta-game becomes with his absence.

I'm not trying to ban MK, reiterating for clarity. I just want to know exactly how much MK effects the meta-game of Brawl, with his superior abilities over, apparently, more than half of the cast, something everyone in this topic has acknowledged as truth.

 

[Yuna]

*siiigh* Ok lemme run this by you again since you fail. Red told me to go practice and I told him that why should I have to work when MK doesn't? Then it goes on to working to surpass MK and I said sure, but the hours spent is rediculous. (As in I was talking countless hours. Exaggeration, you know?)

Sooo then you go on repeating what I said? I don't know what you were trying to tell me. I didn't whine about working, I whined about how MK doesn't have to and if I did work I'd spend a million hours and still have a negligible chance. It's called exaggeration.

You said "I have to work when MK doesn't". I made fun of you for that "Noes! I have to work!".

If you want to win "effortlessly", then pick MK or some of his even matchups, that's what I was saying. Also, 5-4 and 6-3 =/= Negligible chance.