The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[MorphedChaos]

Well, so far it looks like the so called "Back room" will not even condone a simple test, so I'd like to present a hypothesis of my own for us to try, as the people, we just ignore them and do what we want? Maybe that'll knock them off their high perch and let them work with reason instead of Blasphemy? Just a thought.

 

[RedrappeR]

I'm not gonna quote it, but someone said something about Brawl having a bad reputation and MK making it worse.

I'll give you a hint about why the Smash community has a bad reputation. It's suggestions like this. It's a nice way of saying "If you can't get around a problem, let's not put time and effort into solving it, and instead take the easy and ******** way out."

Sorry, but it is. The people here don't act like a competitive community. And those who do act competitive, are few and far between. The boards divided between elitists and newbies, all who think being faux cynics gets them to appear intelligent and have clout when really it just degrades there community further.

People cry over the dumbest things, things most competitive players of other fighting games expect. And this IS a fighting game, make no mistake.

Unless this character is IMPOSSIBLE, and I mean ****ING IMPOSSIBLE to defeat competitively, then you ban him. But he's not.

 

[Grunt]

BS logic.

What makes you think that as the game matures, MK's meta-game will be the only one to progress? What about Snake, G&W and High Tier? Or some of Mid Tier with potential?

MK is on X's, Yun's and Eddie's level. How does this make him ban-worthy? If he becomes Akuma-ish level, then we'll ban him. He's not there yet, neither on paper, in practice or in tourney results. We won't ban him just because he might become Akuma-level!

Especially when there are no indications of such ATM.

I said he isn't ban worthy... so...
besides, i never said anyone else wont progress, and, my mistake, not a "good chance" it will happen, no one knows for sure. I was playing the " deus ex machina universal advanced technique that flys out of god's ***" card,as RDK put it. And only if that were to happen should he be banned.
Really bad wording on my part, but i do agree with the middle paragraph.

 

[Duality]

I'm not gonna quote it, but someone said something about Brawl having a bad reputation and MK making it worse.

I'll give you a hint about why the Smash community has a bad reputation. It's suggestions like this. It's a nice way of saying "If you can't get around a problem, let's not put time and effort into solving it, and instead take the easy and ******** way out."

Sorry, but it is. The people here don't act like a competitive community. And those who do act competitive, are few and far between. The boards divided between elitists and newbies, all who think being faux cynics gets them to appear intelligent and have clout when really it just degrades there community further.

People cry over the dumbest things, things most competitive players of other fighting games expect. And this IS a fighting game, make no mistake.

Unless this character is IMPOSSIBLE, and I mean ****ING IMPOSSIBLE to defeat competitively, then you ban him. But he's not.

Uhh that would be the case if every other person wasn't MK. Smash community has a bad rep? Only way I'd see that is MK's fault. But it doesn't even have it. How would anyone put time and effort into solving MK's problem? Setting a limit to how many people can be him? Everyone else spending their time training to get better and have potential to beat an MK mainer? (Who won't spend nearly as much time).

 

[MorphedChaos]

Still, have a test period of no metas, and if we're on the topic of OP characters, Snake as well, and collect hard data. It would be easy, cause little stress, AND would make everyone happy.

Disregard the part with snake. Nintendo should patch his Utilt though, its hitbox doesn't even make sense.

 

[Grunt]

Still, have a test period of no metas, and if we're on the topic of OP characters, Snake as well, and collect hard data. It would be easy, cause little stress, AND would make everyone happy.

last time i checked, Snake had counters and weaknesses.

 

[Yinlong]

i honestly don't see how MK would be banned.
sure, its pretty obvious hes the best character in the game, but he's not broken to the point where he's unbeatable, especially when tournaments ban potentially gamebreaking ATs like the infinite cape.
MK vs. C. Falcon isn't as broken as say, Julian vs. Knight in LF2

 

[Duality]

Still, have a test period of no metas, and if we're on the topic of OP characters, Snake as well, and collect hard data. It would be easy, cause little stress, AND would make everyone happy.

I've been diggin that plan, but I guess some of the MK people disagree? Unless everyone agrees.

EDIT: Although I only think it should be MK. Snake is fine and so is everyone else.

 

[Doggalina]

MK vs. C. Falcon isn't as broken as say, Julian vs. Knight in LF2

Have you even been on the Falcon end of that matchup?

 

[MorphedChaos]

Eh, the only problem I have with snake is his grossly disjointed Utilt, otherwise hes fine.

 

[Espy Rose]

I've been diggin that plan, but I guess some of the MK people disagree? Unless everyone agrees.

EDIT: Although I only think it should be MK. Snake is fine and so is everyone else.

Agreed. Even Snake has several bad and neutral matchups.

If the MK people disagree, then they just don't enter, simple as that.

 

[Yuna]

"I am a scrub!"

Why is it that MK players are the only ones to defend him? I call Bias and blasphemy. Have a trial period of some non meta tournies, and collect Data. It would satisfy most if not all the MK haters, possibly not ban him, and everyone will be happy. Could this be agreeable to the people in the "Backroom"?

And what could non-Meta tournies possibly give us? Info on what other character(s) will dominate the tourney scene without Meta-Knight around? What then?

Without Meta around, you'll just be developing everyone else's meta-games against everyone else. You can do this even with Meta around.

Some people seem to think that the metagame is only developed in tournament matches. No, they develop in Training Mode and friendlies too. In fact, most Competitive players don't walk into a tournament and try out new untried stuff in tournament matches, that's what friendlies are for.

So the most development come from non-tournament matches.

 

[Grunt]

Some people seem to think that the metagame is only developed in tournament matches. No, they develop in Training Mode and friendlies too.

Of course not! wavedashing was discovered right in the thick of battle, and implemented into the metagame right then and there.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Yuna, Whats your stand on collecting data then? You don't even want to try? The world's greatest scientists had to test their theories, and look what we got now, Imagine if they were as closeminded as you, we wouldn't even have brawl right now. So whats the harm in trying?

 

[SuSa]

Banning Metaknight might give us tourney results that aren't just

1. Winner. Might be a MK
2. MK
3. Snake
4. Snake
5. MK
6.MK
7.MK
8-43: Mk
44: DK
45: Falcon!

(no offence to DK's or Falcon's)
<.<

but then we'd get

1. Snake
2. Snake
3. King Dedede
4. Snake
4-43- Snake
44- Dk!
45- Falcon


Now while I dislike Snakes, HE AT LEAST HAS BAD MATCHUPS. amirite?

snakes and dedede's do have bad matchups which actually make them work harder.

 

[Duality]

And what could non-Meta tournies possibly give us?

A chance at winning. Fun. More competitive games.

Just a lil list.

 

[WaterTails]

Of course not! wavedashing was discovered right in the thick of battle, and implemented into the metagame right then and there.

This may be a bad example, but what about inkdropping or hugging? Those were discovered in friendlies (I think, they were found in E for all, which did have tournaments and friendlies.

Also, what about L-canceling? That was, like, a cornerstone of Melee, and it seems like that couldn't have been found in a tournament? What about the extender? Again, why, in a tournament, would one tap the D-pad while grabbing? Some of the arcane, wacky stuff couldn't have been found in a tournament.

Edit: Darn. quite a few posts while writing that out.

 

[Doggalina]

I don't see any harm in trying MK-free tourneys. The two camps make contradictory claims.

Anti MK ban: Snake and DDD will dominate without MK.
Pro MK ban: There will be much more variety. Snake and DDD won't dominate.

As of now, there is no proof for either side. If we test this, then we'll see who is really right.

EDIT: DK in 40s? DK is upper tier material, good sir.

 

[Espy Rose]

Of course not! Wavedashing was discovered right in the thick of battle, and implemented into the metagame right then and there.

That was just too hilarious.

@Yuna:

And what could non-Meta tournies possibly give us? Info on what other character(s) will dominate the tourney scene without Meta-Knight around? What then?

Without Meta around, you'll just be developing everyone else's meta-games against everyone else. You can do this even with Meta around.

Which in turn could be a good thing. The tournament scene is swamped with so many Meta Knight players that the entirety of many character's developing meta-game revolves around Meta Knight rather than other cast members.

The results of non-Meta tournaments would simply yield results as to whether or not other characters may or may not surface due to MK's absence. It could also show how diverse the community could possibly be without MK on the scene. Although I could easily be wrong, and the only difference would be one jump here or there in character appearance ratios and whatnot. There's nothing wrong with trying it, is there, or is testing something for the sake of getting answers something you BRoomers just shun upon?

Then again, what do I know, eh? I am a scrub, according to you.

Some people seem to think that the metagame is only developed in tournament matches. No, they develop in Training Mode and friendlies too. In fact, most Competitive players don't walk into a tournament and try out new untried stuff in tournament matches, that's what friendlies are for.

So the most development come from non-tournament matches.

Grunt answered this one quite nicely.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

More and more people seem to be trying to bring other characters into this, especially Snake. Honestly I have no problem with Snake. I aknowledge that he is a very very good character, but he isn't even close to MK. To me he is not any harder to beat than the top tiers where in Melee.

 

[Duality]

Even if Snake and DDD DID dominate after it's tested, Snake and DDD have weaknesses and match ups.

But I'll refrain from argument now lol, I think it's time to be tested instead of pointless arguing.

 

[Espy Rose]

More and more people seem to be trying to bring other characters into this, especially Snake. Honestly I have no problem with Snake. I aknowledge that he is a very very good character, but he isn't even close to MK. To me he is not any harder to beat than the top tiers where in Melee.

^^^This for anyone who believes Snake and DDD will dominate in a MK-absent environment^^^

As I've said before, every character in Brawl has some weakness...

'cept MK.

Also, what Duality said.

 

[SuSa]

I don't see any harm in trying MK-free tourneys. The two camps make contradictory claims.

Anti MK ban: Snake and DDD will dominate without MK.
Pro MK ban: There will be much more variety. Snake and DDD won't dominate.

As of now, there is no proof for either side. If we test this, then we'll see who is really right.

EDIT: DK in 40s? DK is upper tier material, good sir.

Lol I know that, DK gives me the hardest time in Brawl as well =p hence the no offence xD

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Thre is no reason to ban MK, he's not that broken. He's very good, but not bannable broken. I think people are just finding it difficult that their character probably sucks at fighting MK, since all the low tiers suck vs him(except for Yoshi >.>) But people, there are neutral matchups vs MK. Youre just gonna have to suck all your "pride" of maining Ike and get a secondary especially for this matchup. I main DK, and he obviously has a 90-10 matchup vs D3. So I have to have a secondary just for this matchup. It's pretty much the same, since MK has a 80-20 ish advantage over alot of people. Don't go cursing MK to hell because you lost him with Ike; Go learn Snake, Diddy, DK, Yoshi, ZSS, MK or anobdy with a close matchup. If you lose then, then it's not MK's fault, it's your's since youre just not as good as your opponent.

 

[Yuna]

"I am a scrub!"

BS

We ban things as a last resort, if they're unbeatable. Not to maximize diversity, "fun" or to appease whiners.

Stuff

Grunt was being sarcastic.

 

[Doggalina]

Yuna, the point still stands that having some MK-free tourneys will end the argument over what would happen if MK is banned. It will prove whether or not the slippery slope idea is true in this case. Often, the second best just dominate after the best is removed, but there's no hurt in seeing what really happens.

 

[MorphedChaos]

And Yuna just completely misses the points again, She/he doesn't want to talk about them since he/she knows its the correct thing to do, but doesn't want to bring it up due to possibly being laughed at. GROW UP! A test period would fix things, stop denying it, and TRY. Jeez.

 

[Espy Rose]

We ban things as a last resort, if they're unbeatable. Not to maximize diversity, "fun" or to appease whiners.

I'm aware of that, although my goal isn't really to ban Meta Knight, since I know for **** sure that MK getting banned isn't going to happen anytime soon, or at all.

Moreso, I just want to know exactly what would happen in an environment without MK looming over the competition, and whether or not it would enrich the variety of characters we see at tournaments.

Perhaps I should've clarified in my earlier posts.

Also, to the bold part of the quote:

So, out of curiosity: If, hypothetically, the entire Brawl community switched over to MK, it still wouldn't merit a ban on the character?

 

[Duality]

What Doggalina, Puffball64, and Morphed Chaos said.

EDIT: I'm not too sure on what a scrub means but I'd rather be called a scrub than use MK.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, the point still stands that having some MK-free tourneys will end the argument over what would happen if MK is banned. It will prove whether or not the slippery slope idea is true in this case. Often, the second best just dominate after the best is removed, but there's no hurt in seeing what really happens.

Because there's no reason to. Even if some other character(s) wouldn't dominate as badly, there's no reason to ban MK. No, being the best with 0 bad matchups is not enough.

And Yuna just completely misses the points again, She/he doesn't want to talk about them since he/she knows its the correct thing to do, but doesn't want to bring it up due to possibly being laughed at. GROW UP! A test period would fix things, stop denying it, and TRY. Jeez.

Read my previous posts. Then read my sig.

Agreed. Even Snake has several bad and neutral matchups.

If the MK people disagree, then they just don't enter, simple as that.

Name them and their odds (missed this one before, replying to it now).

 

[SuSa]

Yuna...


Name how it will hurt if we try it.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Whoopdie doo, so I didn't see that in your sig, don't be so hurt about it. And also, stop avoiding a question, or dancing around it when you obviously can't. There are at least 5 of us here who want to see this done compared to you, one. your outnumbered and outvoted, so why not try it? What have you to lose? Mayne your main for a week or month?

 

[rugoodat0]

What's banning MK going to do? There's nothing stopping you people from picking MK against other MK's >_>

 

[KoJ]

Because there's no reason to. Even if some other character(s) wouldn't dominate as badly, there's no reason to ban MK. No, being the best with 0 bad matchups is not enough.\

Holding a few unofficial Meta Knight free tournaments is not the same as banning Meta.

Why stop them from trying to experiment? You say there's no reason to, but why? There's plenty of reason. They want to find out something. They made a hypothesis, now they're testing that hypothesis.

They're free to do what they want, so stop acting as if they have no right to host a Meta Knight free tournament.

Yuna...

Name how it will hurt if we try it.

[sarcasm]Obviously, it should not be done because it has not been done yet.[/sarcasm]

What's banning MK going to do? There's nothing stopping you people from picking MK against other MK's >_>

Great argument. That'll be amazing, with the tournament scene being only normally skilled Metas and Meta counters and extremely skilled pros using a few other characters.

 

[Duality]

*face palm* I'm sorry but is ignorance getting more popular these days?

What would be the problem to have 1 MK-less tourney?


As for picking MK to fight MK, you're missing the point. Besides, maybe there's some people like me that wouldn't want to be MK.

 

[WaterTails]

Name them and their odds (missed this one before, replying to it now).

Wario: 5/5
Diddy: 5/5
Falco: 5/5
Fox: 5/5
G&W: 5/5
(There are probably more. I don't particularly feel like looking through more character-guide threads)

It seems like Snake tends to have even matchups against characters with good aerials.

What would be the problem to have 1 MK-less tourney?

why not try it? What have you to lose? Mayne your main for a week or month?

Name how it will hurt if we try it.

The thing is, the non-Meta tournaments may not have that many people go. Do you remember the Evo ruleset? There were like a hundred people. That kinda goes to show you that if a smasher (or a group of them, in the case of Evo, people who care about the game. In this case, people who main Meta) would be willing to pseudo-boycott a tournament.

 

[Espy Rose]

Because there's no reason to. Even if some other character(s) wouldn't dominate as badly, there's no reason to ban MK. No, being the best with 0 bad matchups is not enough.

So, since when did doing something just for the sake of enlightenment no longer become a reason to do something?

It's simple. We wan't answers, and yours aren't 100% valid since there has never been a credible test for this. Infact, I don't think you've even answered this at all.

We just want some results and answers. That's our main goal; banning MK is something we KNOW will probably be avoided at all costs. Unless the other posters in this thread are simply doing this out of spite, I doubt we'd continue this argument just because we wanted a character banned.

Name them and their odds (missed this one before, replying to it now).

According to the Snake Matchup Thread in the Character Discussion topic, Snake has AT LEAST (I think?) neutral difficulty with:

DK, Meta Knight, and R.O.B. with 5 *s
Pikachu, Olimar, and Falco with 4 *s
Wario and G@W with 3 *s

 

[cutter]

Yuna...


Name how it will hurt if we try it.

Quoted for extreme truthery.

 

[Duality]

I'd also think Snake has a hard time with Sonic (in my experience). I haven't played hardcore competitive but Snake is a pretty easy match up for me 'cause of his delay. But there's probably a way around that.

Point is, Snake actually HAS weaknesses.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I did say snake was a little OP, Guess I was caught in the heat of battle, Only thing OP about him is his Utilt's ENORMOUS hitbox, otherwise hes perfectly fine. And some characters have things that make them OP, like DDD's CG, DK's punch, ext...

Snakes fine, just godly when played perfectly, but hes still ok, While meta, Noob has to do Nado Nado, Nado Nado, Dsmash, dead.