It's true. Where OoT captured millions within the first few minutes, MM scared half of those people away. I will stand by this however: MM has the best dungeons in the entire series so far. And not that it's new or anything, but side quests rock and MM takes the cake on that as well. Again, I hold them equal in experiential terms, but as far as gameplay itself goes (as in: what you can do mechanically), I prefer MM. Their pros and cons equate to a beautiful pair of games.
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Legend of Zelda The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword - NO SPOILERS, USE THE SPOILER THREAD PLEASE
- Thread starter XACE-K
- Start date
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
OoT vs MM has been debated amongst hardcore Zelda fans for a while but the general public perception has always unanimously been OoT = best Zelda game ever (and best game period in many cases).
But like LT said I personally have problems when trying to rank all of the console zeldas because there is stuff that i specifically love about each of them.
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
It takes too much to understand why MM is great. OoT is a lot more "obviously good" which it's kinda pointless to push the idea that MM is better past people that already agree with it. I didn't think MM's virtue was in its temples though. Ikana temple is definitely one of the best ever, but it barely makes up for how forgetable the others are. IMO, MM's real triumph is in the story and the nature of the sidequests. I think it's better than OoT (and the best game ever made by a very large margin) but for all intents and purposes, I wouldn't dispute it over OoT for practical reasons.
and the entire childhood portion is an egregious blight on OoT, much worse in that regard. replaying the whole series before SS comes out and having played both recently I have to say it takes forever to get to the good stuff in OoT
OoT sold more and had more of a hype machine while MM was released too fast for people to miss the series and had to compete with the PS2
for the same reason SS will fail to dethrone OoT as the "mainstream" zelda of choice. people are abandoning the wii in droves, I wouldn't expect the game to sell as well as twilight princess did and it simply won't get the same kind of exposure. might be a fantastic game, but if we're just talking pop appeal there's more to it than that.
I really love MM's dungeons. They are the only 3D dungeons besides Master Quest to give me any trouble at all.
To me, MM's biggest weaknesses are all gameplay related. The first cycle, the substantial amount of "waiting around" time and the tedious nature of many of the pre-dungeon sidequests.
First Cycle- In a series full of bad beginning sequences, MM takes the cake. This is the only part of the game where the timer acts as an actual timer, and the first time you play there's a very real possibility of not figuring out the unintuitive and very specific chain of events to get your Ocarina back before the time runs out. This sucks. This is bad game design. And then to force you to play as the most crippled and unfun character in the game until you do all that just makes for a very unpleasant experience and really soured my first impression of the game. and that reminds me of my second point
Waiting Around. Now the other problem with the first cycle of the game is one that continues throughout. If you already know exactly what to do and how to do it, you will probably finish everything in order to get up to the Clock Tower door before Day 2. This means either waiting until 2.5 days pass, or going to talk to the Scarecrow to watch him dance and pass the time. This still takes WAY too much time and is just not entertaining in any form after the first time.
Because you can't travel to more specific hours, there are many sidequests that have you literally standing around waiting for the time to turn and activate whatever event you happen to be waiting for. I don't like that.
Pre-dungeon quests
I straight up don't believe anyone who tries to say they actually found sneaking/floating around Deku Palace to be fun. This is another low point of the game, and it's immediately after the first cycle.
Same with the powder keg running to get the license, the Gerudo Fortress rehash in Great Bay, etc. I really like the idea of putting more emphasis on the subquests like this, but I don't really like how it was executed for the most part. I feel like Ikana was the only section to truly realize its actual potential...and even that had a kinda horrible part with the Gibdos in the well.
I sound like I don't like the game here, but it's actually my favorite game in general, for other reasons.
To me, MM's biggest weaknesses are all gameplay related. The first cycle, the substantial amount of "waiting around" time and the tedious nature of many of the pre-dungeon sidequests.
First Cycle- In a series full of bad beginning sequences, MM takes the cake. This is the only part of the game where the timer acts as an actual timer, and the first time you play there's a very real possibility of not figuring out the unintuitive and very specific chain of events to get your Ocarina back before the time runs out. This sucks. This is bad game design. And then to force you to play as the most crippled and unfun character in the game until you do all that just makes for a very unpleasant experience and really soured my first impression of the game. and that reminds me of my second point
Waiting Around. Now the other problem with the first cycle of the game is one that continues throughout. If you already know exactly what to do and how to do it, you will probably finish everything in order to get up to the Clock Tower door before Day 2. This means either waiting until 2.5 days pass, or going to talk to the Scarecrow to watch him dance and pass the time. This still takes WAY too much time and is just not entertaining in any form after the first time.
Because you can't travel to more specific hours, there are many sidequests that have you literally standing around waiting for the time to turn and activate whatever event you happen to be waiting for. I don't like that.
Pre-dungeon quests
I straight up don't believe anyone who tries to say they actually found sneaking/floating around Deku Palace to be fun. This is another low point of the game, and it's immediately after the first cycle.
Same with the powder keg running to get the license, the Gerudo Fortress rehash in Great Bay, etc. I really like the idea of putting more emphasis on the subquests like this, but I don't really like how it was executed for the most part. I feel like Ikana was the only section to truly realize its actual potential...and even that had a kinda horrible part with the Gibdos in the well.
I sound like I don't like the game here, but it's actually my favorite game in general, for other reasons.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
...Deku Palace sneaking was mad fun =/
Yeah, I thought the Deku Palace sequence was a great nod to OoT's Hyrule Castle Courtyards as well as the top-down gameplay of Zelda yore. And then there was the axel element of Z. Unlike the majority of the courtyard shenanigans in OoT, there was extensive use of verticality to navigate the gardens of the Deku Palace. I also found it conceptually interesting in that the Deku Palace is the first 'castle' you venture to in MM just as Hyrule Castle is the first in OoT, and yet it is run by Deku, not Hylians. Culturally different, structurally similar. An interesting take on the parallel world concept.
That's not to say Ikana's Ancient Castle isn't Hyrule Castle's Terminan counterpart though.
Edit: Despite my love for the dead culture of Ikana, I may find the Southern Swamp to be my undying love for Majora's Mask. As a child, I despised the region for its sheer alienation of all things comfortable and safe. There was layered danger around every corner, as one would expect to find in a swamp. Such an uncomfortable place to venture into, and yet that's basically the first part of the game. The desolation of Great Bay is unmatched by anything Zelda, even Twilight Princess. Something about the grandness of the ocean, the grainy boundaries of the murky water, and the horror of Like Likes populating the sea floor. I could go on, but Majora's Mask nailed atmosphere. It is terrifying to venture around Termina.
After Skyward Sword and an original 3DS Zelda, I want nothing more than a remake of Majora's Mask.
That's not to say Ikana's Ancient Castle isn't Hyrule Castle's Terminan counterpart though.
Edit: Despite my love for the dead culture of Ikana, I may find the Southern Swamp to be my undying love for Majora's Mask. As a child, I despised the region for its sheer alienation of all things comfortable and safe. There was layered danger around every corner, as one would expect to find in a swamp. Such an uncomfortable place to venture into, and yet that's basically the first part of the game. The desolation of Great Bay is unmatched by anything Zelda, even Twilight Princess. Something about the grandness of the ocean, the grainy boundaries of the murky water, and the horror of Like Likes populating the sea floor. I could go on, but Majora's Mask nailed atmosphere. It is terrifying to venture around Termina.
After Skyward Sword and an original 3DS Zelda, I want nothing more than a remake of Majora's Mask.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
God, Spire with the perfect translation of everyones thoughts.
MAJOR kudos.
MAJOR kudos.
I look at it like this: OoT did epic adventure better, and MM did characters and atmosphere better. The latter appeals to me more, so I prefer MM. OoT is the greatest Zelda, but to me, MM is the best Zelda, if that makes any sense.
Spire I think I love you
I don't follow. Firstly, I never "heaped praise" on anything. There are three dungeons in the childhood portion of OoT, that's almost as many as MM has in its entirety. The first cycle of MM is more comparable to being stuck in the Kokiri Forest before finding the sword and shield. There is no way that can possibly take longer than the first cycle of MM. You are in a dungeon within minutes in OoT, and are let out into the overworld not long after that. I don't know what you are referring to when you say the childhood portion of the game is so bad. I can't think of anything that sticks out so much as being stuck as a Deku while being confined to a small subset of the overworld and forced to race against time to figure out how to access the real meat of the game.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Spire is pretty much spot on what I think. For the record, I love the amount of preparation needed before the temples. I love how intricate and complex MM is which makes the replay value of the game so much higher. There are so many ways to beat that game and to get better at it.
I would be lying if I said I loved the 1st mm cycle as a kid but I feel the game is much more rewarded due to the amount of struggle you faced. I also love how MM doesn't treat you as a new gamer to Zelda. You can skip a lot of text and the required cutscenes are minimal outside the first 20 mins of the game.
The worst part of MM is the saving system though, especially if your game freezes
I would be lying if I said I loved the 1st mm cycle as a kid but I feel the game is much more rewarded due to the amount of struggle you faced. I also love how MM doesn't treat you as a new gamer to Zelda. You can skip a lot of text and the required cutscenes are minimal outside the first 20 mins of the game.
The worst part of MM is the saving system though, especially if your game freezes
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
I've got the Collectors Edition disc and trying to play MM on that one was a nightmare. It freezes soooooo much.
GwJ
Smash Hero
Wasn't MM really unstable on the GCN disc?
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Does anyone know how many dungeons there will be in SS? Dungeons have always been my favorite part about Zelda series.
I don't want to Google anything in fear that I will spoil myself with specifics.
I don't want to Google anything in fear that I will spoil myself with specifics.
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
Set your standards low so that you can only be impressed. My favorite strategy.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Haha always a great strategy! However, I have never been disappointed by a console Zelda and I'm 99% sure that trend is going to continue based off of the little I've seen from Skyward Sword.
Ok actually I was a little disappointed with Twilight Princess when it first came out as a result of Nintendo creating the biggest hype train in history for it. However, after being nit-picky about certain things I randomly realized during my first play through that the game might not turn out to be my unquestionable favorite of the series, but there were still many aspects that I loved about the game simply because it was Zelda.
Kinda off topic but I feel like Zelda fans get wrapped up in debates between which Zelda is better than the other so much that they often lose sight of how awesome the games are in their entirety. Kinda like how people always want to bash Wind Waker when compared to OoT but the fact of the matter is that WW is one of the highest rated (if not THE highest rated) GameCube games of all time. Same thing with Twilight Princess although the hype caused many people to become disappointed we can all agree that it was definitely one of the most (despite the fact that it was a GC title) definitive experiences on the Wii... Well I guess that's not saying much but that's a problem with the quality of the Wii itself. :\
Bottom line is Zelda will always produce high quality games, and they're all awesome!
Ok actually I was a little disappointed with Twilight Princess when it first came out as a result of Nintendo creating the biggest hype train in history for it. However, after being nit-picky about certain things I randomly realized during my first play through that the game might not turn out to be my unquestionable favorite of the series, but there were still many aspects that I loved about the game simply because it was Zelda.
Kinda off topic but I feel like Zelda fans get wrapped up in debates between which Zelda is better than the other so much that they often lose sight of how awesome the games are in their entirety. Kinda like how people always want to bash Wind Waker when compared to OoT but the fact of the matter is that WW is one of the highest rated (if not THE highest rated) GameCube games of all time. Same thing with Twilight Princess although the hype caused many people to become disappointed we can all agree that it was definitely one of the most (despite the fact that it was a GC title) definitive experiences on the Wii... Well I guess that's not saying much but that's a problem with the quality of the Wii itself. :\
Bottom line is Zelda will always produce high quality games, and they're all awesome!
GwJ
Smash Hero
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
I actually thoroughly enjoyed the first two CD-i Zeldas.
Get@me.
Get@me.
so, you didn't actually play them?
though, I never played the top down one where you play as Zelda. the other ones were almost unplayable.
though, I never played the top down one where you play as Zelda. the other ones were almost unplayable.
cloneofshadow
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2010
- Messages
- 52
I disagree.
Disagree with what? That you can skip past most of the text? I'm pretty sure that's true.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Phantom Hourglass is the only Zelda game I've ever played and never completed.
That game was just... meh
That game was just... meh
In my eyes Spirit Tracks is only marginally better than the CD-I games.
cloneofshadow
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2010
- Messages
- 52
To sum it up
Worst 2-D Game in the series : Zelda 2
Worst Handheld Game in the series : Phantom Hourglas
Worst 3-D games in the series : Twilight Princess
Worst 2-D Game in the series : Zelda 2
Worst Handheld Game in the series : Phantom Hourglas
Worst 3-D games in the series : Twilight Princess
PH is really the only game in the series that I would say is outright bad, ST inherits its terrible control scheme but does a few things to at least make me think "this would be good if it had actual controls" where PH is really beyond redemption to me
kupo15
Smash Hero
Thanks for the elaboration
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you're still wrong
Really? I personally found that PH to be an interesting take on the series. Granted I wasn't the biggest fan of the controls but I was pretty satisfied with the game for a single run through and I surprisingly didn't find the central tower to be that much of a pain as most did.
ST on the other hand was beyond terrible for many reasons one being a poorly made exact rehash of PH. It is the only Zelda game I didn't care enough to even beat even though I was at the very end. The only two good things about the game was the stamp collection and the sand temple.
There needs to be another Zelda like Minish Cap
I don't think Minish Cap is all that great, but I really love the Oracle games so I still agree with Spire.
StealthyGunnar
Smash Champion
I really liked Minish Cap, and I did like The Oracle games too. Too bad the one I had, Seasons, wouldn't save and I could never finish it!
I liked Minish Cap, but something about it just never "clicked" with me the way most Zelda games do.
and for the record, Zelda 2 may be the worst console Zelda but that doesn't mean it's a bad game goddammit!!!
and for the record, Zelda 2 may be the worst console Zelda but that doesn't mean it's a bad game goddammit!!!
StealthyGunnar
Smash Champion
Sorry, couldn't hear the rage. YOU HAVE A BANANA IN YOUR EAR!I liked Minish Cap, but something about it just never "clicked" with me the way most Zelda games do.
and for the record, Zelda 2 may be the worst console Zelda but that doesn't mean it's a bad game goddammit!!!
And you guys so sure about SS being the best LoZ game? Overhyping games, movies, other forms of entertainment always ruins it for me. :l
I don't understand people who seriously say that kind of stuff either. I'm definitely more excited for this one than I've been for any Zelda in a very long time...but how the hell do I know how it is based on like 15 minutes tops of gameplay footage, and much of that is from a year old prototype version.