The Jiggz Match-Up Thread

[PND]

(3.19)
JIGGLYPUFF

DIFFICULTY: 55:45
CHAINGRAB: NO​

OH SH*T IT'S THE JIGGERNAUT B*TCH!

Dedede is so imbalanced, lol. He has the tools to beat Snake, but has such glaring flaws(he's practically the epitome of easy combos) that even Jiggly can effectively exploit them.


From a Dedede player's perspective:
Jiggly is really annoying. Jiggly's fast air speed vs. D3's slow air speed is a very bad combination. Otherwise, you have the range and power advantage here, use it the best way you can. Bair is godly here, as is utilt. Even without the CG, D3's grab is still a major asset for him. It's a battle for spacing, and D3's great defense game should be used to its fullest. Shieldgrab and bair are what it really boils down to.

Real summary coming soon.

Taken from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192600

 

[Thinkaman]

yeah i dont think jiggs stands a rats *** of a chance against falco. or a good ddd for that matter. DDD's airgame is good, his bair has huge priority and beats most of our arials. he kills us insanely early with uptilt and dont act like hes not gonna get u with it, he will. ddd outcamps us, out kills us, and frankly adds damage up faster than us. 65:35 ddd

Everyoen else is talking about how Falco can't do anything to Jiggypuff, and you are randomly saying "Yeah, Jigglypuff doesn't stand a chance." Care to share with the class?

As for DDD, lol. His u-tilt is good, but when that's effectively the only thing you need to avoid, it's very reasonable... it's not Snake. Bair is extremely good, but nair can help fight it.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Everyoen else is talking about how Falco can't do anything to Jiggypuff, and you are randomly saying "Yeah, Jigglypuff doesn't stand a chance." Care to share with the class?

As for DDD, lol. His u-tilt is good, but when that's effectively the only thing you need to avoid, it's very reasonable... it's not Snake. Bair is extremely good, but nair can help fight it.

His u-tilt is really strong, it almost reminds me of snake's without the huge disjoint. His f-tilt is also amazing because of its long range...

Ok, he out ranges us all the time. PND, another in depth range chart if you will?
In the air he has his u-air and d-air that provide long/far cover below and above him. F-air has a good range and is a move that can kill us at low percentages. He can also WoP you with b-air quite effectively.

D3's n-air is just pathetic though... it's hitbox is so small. The only good thing about it is that its a very sexy move.

Don't counterpick his ice robe, white is VERY slimming on him; and trust me, he needs the extra lag.

 

[Thinkaman]

Fair? Against DDD, I don't care about the fair any more than I care about say, ROB's bair. It's too slow. I'm just mindful that it exists and don't let myself get hit by it.

Uair and dair are a bit more annoying, but they stay out so long that it can be easily punished. (Especially since DDD's horizontal movement is so poor.) Bait them.

Really it's just bair that's the problem. I want to test DACUS against more opponent SH/FH bair approaches. I wish my Wii worked.

Oh, and f-tilt? What were you doing in front of DDD on the ground?

 

[Metatitan]

Everyoen else is talking about how Falco can't do anything to Jiggypuff, and you are randomly saying "Yeah, Jigglypuff doesn't stand a chance." Care to share with the class?

As for DDD, lol. His u-tilt is good, but when that's effectively the only thing you need to avoid, it's very reasonable... it's not Snake. Bair is extremely good, but nair can help fight it.

i havent heard one falco main say jiggs stands a chance. anyways falcos lazers give us no solid approach. u get hit by a lazer you get hit by an attack. u duck to dodge lazers, u get attacked. i dont think he can safely approach u when ur planking but what if planking is banned? falco kills us way earlier than we kill him, and with his lazers good luck getting him off the stage. ive heard a lot about planking and ducking, you obviously cant camp this matchup so how do u plan to approach?

 

[PND]

Go high, or go slow and air dodge whenever a laser is coming. Or walk and shield / duck when necessary. You act as if getting to a Falco is impossible

 

[rinoH]

avoiding lasers arent that bad for jiggs you can just jump over it and airdodge or duck and you dont approach a falco

 

[Thinkaman]

Meta, I still have no idea what you are talking about.

Falco shoots lasers in front of him.

Jiggs approaches opponents from above, diagonally.

Everyone else is talking about shielding, dodging, ducking lasers... while it's good to have options, the core of the matchup is that you are jumping over all of these and only have to air dodge FH'd lasers that are of little annoyance.

Falco's good approach game just... doesn't apply to Jigglypuff. At all.

 

[Cold Fusion]

What matchup ratios are being given to Meta knight vs. Jigglypuff and Snake vs. Jigglypuff?

 

[san.]

After reading the posts about falco, I see the opinions are a little widespread, but which character has the better counterpick options against the other? I think Jigglypuff does.

Unless I overlooked something, many of falco's good stages are also good for jigglypuff, like jungle japes. FD/SV Jigglypuff can probably fair alright if she can camp the air well enough to approach around falco's tough projectile game and followups.

Jigglypuff has frigate, rainbow cruise, lylat cruise, and arguably some others such as brinstar(??) or delfino. Some people talked about norfair being good for jigglypuff, but I haven't really looked into the stage too much. Correct me if I'm wrong/stages aren't as good or bad as I said.

 

[illinialex24]

After reading the posts about falco, I see the opinions are a little widespread, but which character has the better counterpick options against the other? I think Jigglypuff does.

Unless I overlooked something, many of falco's good stages are also good for jigglypuff, like jungle japes. FD/SV Jigglypuff can probably fair alright if she can camp the air well enough to approach around falco's tough projectile game and followups.

Jigglypuff has frigate, rainbow cruise, lylat cruise, and arguably some others such as brinstar(??) or delfino. Some people talked about norfair being good for jigglypuff, but I haven't really looked into the stage too much. Correct me if I'm wrong/stages aren't as good or bad as I said.

Sorry but I have to respond here. Falco will **** your **** at Japes. Trust me on this. FD is better for him. Frigate ***** him but its semi banned..... Try going Smashville or BF on him.

Kinda also like Yoshi's Island Brawl.

 

[san.]

Okay, I see about japes. I main Ike, so I usually ban japes no matter what against most characters. If you exclude those,

I guess you could say the amount of stages being about equal with argument could leaning towards either side.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

i havent heard one falco main say jiggs stands a chance. anyways falcos lazers give us no solid approach. u get hit by a lazer you get hit by an attack. u duck to dodge lazers, u get attacked. i dont think he can safely approach u when ur planking but what if planking is banned? falco kills us way earlier than we kill him, and with his lazers good luck getting him off the stage. ive heard a lot about planking and ducking, you obviously cant camp this matchup so how do u plan to approach?

Have you noticed that Jiggs is a generally underrated character, yet? Why would most falco mains have ever played a decent Jiggs? If they ever got beat by one, they'd probably assume that the player was just really good. It would be sad for falco mains to start complaining about such a match, and would be even less likely for them to go around talking about how Jigglypuff does well against them. I'm sorry, but that first statement makes no sense at all to me.

You know lasers do, what, 4% damage with little knockback, right? If we get hit by 2 of them on the way towards him and hit him with any aerial, you will hit him for more damage. You will not get hit as often as you imply by laser>attack "combos", because you are Jiggs and you will be in the air.

Also, Ducking is a lot better than you think, since you actually have a lot of options to do out of it. When he's coming in close, you can jump right out of duck and dair towards him, for instance. This will out-prioritize most of what he can throw at you. You can also shield grab him if he tries to attack.

When you say he kills us more easily, that's kind of a null statement since everyone else does. Part of playing Jiggs is being agile and dodging more attacks while doing more damage to compensate for KO potential. And we can camp him just fine. I've yet to see a silent laser hit a ducking Jiggs.

 

[illinialex24]

Okay, I see about japes. I main Ike, so I usually ban japes no matter what against most characters. If you exclude those,

I guess you could say the amount of stages being about equal with argument could leaning towards either side.

The ledges are at the perfect height for lasers, a good Falco will not die on Japes because he can mindgame his recovery so many ways and be guaranteed a recovery from most places, he can stall, he can illusion mindgame the **** out of you, he can have perfect position for dair, F-tilt, U-tilt, and jab. Your best shot is a gimp off the left side but thats about it.

 

[Thinkaman]

I like Brinstar against Falco, though Battlefield is pretty great for a neutral. I wouldn't mind having to use it as a CP against him.

 

[Cold Fusion]

The Falco and King Dedede boards haven't been informed about the matchup discussion.

 

[Thinkaman]

Jigglypuff is probably the least-played character in Brawl. Extremely few people have any experience at all against Jigglypuff or have any idea what matchups against her are like, even with their mains.

 

[MrEh]

Jigglypuff is probably the least-played character in Brawl.

Even less then Bowser? XD

 

[PND]

I let the other boards know. I got so wrapped up in planning my extensive travel plans for the next 2 months that I totally forget to notify the other boards. I'll keep this open until Monday / Tuesday, depending on how late I get back on Monday, before moving on to the next round of characters.

 

[Emperor Time]

De....ja...vu. I actually think Falco beats Jiggs. Don't get me wrong now. Jiggs has a lot of crap up....her...(?) sleeve. The wicked air game, priority, etc. But if Falco plays REALLY safe, he has the edge. I think spacing is really important for Falco in this MU. If he spaces well with moves like Ftilt and punishes with stuff like utilt and dair, he'll be straight.

I remember when I played my friend's jiggs a few weeks ago. He was punishing all my **** left and right. When I decided to play a solid defensive game, none of his stuff could break through.

And...lasers....they're there, I guess. They do a good job, but they don't completely shut her down.

60:40 >_>?

 

[Thinkaman]

Even less then Bowser? XD

XD. I'll have you know that I had typed "certainly the least-player", then I thought specifically of Bowser, and changed it to "probably least-played."

 

[superglucose]

This is, in my opinion, Falco's toughest low tier matchup (or SDYF tier, or whatever the SBR is calling it these days). Jiggz' fair is ridiculous and needs to not exist, and pound... is pound. While it's true that we, falco, do not chaingrab Jiggz, it's not true that we can't combo out of our downthrow, and lasers are also very effective against the puffball. Sure, they don't shut everything down, but because she can't crawl, she has to approach from way high, and when you're limited to one approach option you're going to get punished... a lot.

That being said, I don't think it's easy at all, and this matchup reminds me (unfavorably) of the Wario matchup. Sure, we have answers to your moves, but they're very specific answers that require excellent timing and spacing. If Falco is playing his top level camping game, I don't see how Jiggz gets close. Other than that, this is a rough ride for any falco.

I'd say it's pretty close to even, personally. 55-45 falco, maybe. Not a fun* matchup at all.

*fun being, easy win, or at the very least, the kind of game where we don't have to work our ***** off for the win

 

[Spoonbob]

I love playing Dedede as Jiggs. She has a legit bair chain at low->middle percents, and can do other random chains on him due to his ridiculous size and knockback resistance. While it's easy to rack up damage on DDD, like most Jiggs matchups, 50% on Jiggs is the equivalent of 100% on him. At 80% or so, utilt kills Jiggs very easily if the Jiggs doesn't work around it. Spacing in general is key, since DDD has so many different ways of killing Jiggs.

Jiggs' offstage game is a godsend in this matchup. Generally, when the DDD is around 100%, I begin edgeguarding the **** out of him until he is forced to upb. If he lands directly on the stage, it's a free rest. If he cancels it early enough, you can just hit him back offstage and have him be forced to do the upb again. Dedede can't really cancel it late enough to be totally resistant to any sort of interference.

But...he can kill ridiculously early. And Waddle Dees/Doos/Gordos are annoying as balls. I'd say like 55:45.

 

[Gates]

"Jiggs is so broken, all she has to do is press downB to win."
- Wife

But yeah, I have a mild amount of experience against a Jiggs of questionable skill (He plays Jiggs about as well as I play Ganon) so I guess I can say a couple things on the matchup.

Dedede can get out of the WoP with his UpB's super armor if he times it right, but a good Jiggs player can probably time it so Dedede won't have time to do so.

I have a hard time grabbing Jiggs because she's in the air so much and basically spends most of her time poking me with bair and such. On top of that she's so floaty that often times I won't be able to techchase her since she'll just jump out of it lol (but it's ok because fresh bthrow does 16-17% which is like 1/5 of the amount needed to kill Jiggs with utilt). Jiggs has a ton of range on her aerials which when combined with her air speed makes her even harder to grab than Wario sometimes. I'm not sure whose aerials beat whose but I think our bair has more priority than Jiggs' aerials. If Jiggs gets us in the air she can juggle us pretty well with uairs for some good damage but she doesn't really have anything to follow them up with that I know of (rest maybe? lol).

Rest is actually pretty bad on Dedede since it doesn't really kill him until >100%. At the same time though I can't think of any better kill moves lol. Another important thing to note (and I know this goes without saying for Jiggs but it's especially important here) is that if you miss a rest, Dedede will charge an Fsmash which, if it gets charged fully, can kill Mario at 17% (This means that Jiggs can be killed at like, idk, 10% or less). In fact, because Dedede is so heavy and powerful, if you don't kill him with rest you'll likely lose a stock.

As far as stages go, Jiggs wants to avoid ceilings with low stages like Halberd and take Dedede to places with plenty of platforms like Battlefield, Brinstar, and Norfair (if it's legal) or places with big ceilings like Jungle Japes (I think Pictochat has a big ceiling too? idk).

This matchup is really close, and it's hilarious how Dedede is considered a counter for Snake but dies to this little puffball.

I'd say 55:45 Dedede from personal experience.

 

[illinialex24]

I like these two matchups.... as Marth. Oh hells yeah I like them as Marth. But as puff, Falco can most definitely be hard, his bair can be a vicious killer way early, and his boost smash can be a surprise kill because she isn't that fast attack wise (nair with DI to beat it well) but I think King Dedede is almost neutral and Falco is around 40-60 to 35-65. Laser spammer......

I won't be posting for almost a week likely.

 

[Metatitan]

ddd vs puff is amazingly fun ^^
but i see it as 60:40-65:35 ddd. gl killing him lol u need your Fair to space sometimes you know ^^

 

[Framerate]

Not to mention Dedede's bair has really good priority and knock back. Good Dedede's will abuse bair against puff. It's still a fun match-up cause if you catch them off guard you can juggle them for a while. Uair to rest seems easier to land on Dedede.

 

[Metatitan]

^
uair to rest does not work at killing %'s, let alone work period. and dont bring up glick's vid vs that snake, that looked like a friendly

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Fair? Against DDD, I don't care about the fair any more than I care about say, ROB's bair. It's too slow. I'm just mindful that it exists and don't let myself get hit by it.

Uair and dair are a bit more annoying, but they stay out so long that it can be easily punished. (Especially since DDD's horizontal movement is so poor.) Bait them.

Really it's just bair that's the problem. I want to test DACUS against more opponent SH/FH bair approaches. I wish my Wii worked.

Oh, and f-tilt? What were you doing in front of DDD on the ground?

*late quote*

He can space his f-air pretty well. Slow moves will still hit you even if you are playing your aproach safe. ROB's b-air isn't something to worry about because it's slow? Thats like saying he will never land his slow d-air. What im saying is that D3's f-air has a lot more priority than a falcon punch, and it will hit you due to its large range.

And his f-tilt...
Its fast and huge I can understand how you think it is strange to be in front of D3 on the ground. What if you are in the air in front of him? Being above him is the last thing you want to do. You can however stay above it's range in front of him, but you can't stay here forever.

D3's recovery is pretty hard to stop, and that is one of the reasons I think this is in his favor. Usualy jigglypuff does very well afainst heavies, but he has strong attacks that can be uses to bait you. He has a better ground game and an ok air game.

40:60 for D3

 

[PND]

ddd vs puff is amazingly fun ^^
but i see it as 60:40-65:35 ddd. gl killing him lol u need your Fair to space sometimes you know ^^

if I need to be worried about a stale fair, I nair instead. It almost has as much range (sweetspotted), and you can retreat with it better than fair. Now, don't get me wrong, I occasionally poke with fair, but there are other options than spacing with fair.

 

[Framerate]

^
uair to rest does not work at killing %'s, let alone work period. and dont bring up glick's vid vs that snake, that looked like a friendly

I'm aware that Uair to rest isn't a combo so much as it is an option. Many players try to beat the uair with their own aerial, thus if they guess you're gonna uair and they don't dodge, rest will beat their move 99% of the time. It's all about location too, uair to rest won't kill at 60% on the main platform of Battlefield, but if you uair juggled them a few times off the top platform and rest it will kill them.

 

[Metatitan]

^
On a dumb player mabey. If they are getting juggled they won't try to fight your uair. Not to mention ddd's Dair is too disjointed to be rested.

 

[Framerate]

Rest is faster than dair. But what you're telling me is that dair is the dumb option. So what's the smart one? Air dodge would be too obvious, read the air dodge and you get a free rest. Dedede's midair jump is a joke, you could land an uair or maybe even pull off a rest if you're lucky, and fast fall bair will definitely get beaten by rest.

I'm telling you, uair+rest is definitely an option on Dedede. Uair hits him no where cause he's fat. His only option after an uair is probably a rising dair. The question is whether he can jump in time D:

 

[Metatitan]

^
why would u rest a ddd, ever? hes so fat that he lives over 100%. u rest, he lives, u die from f smash. gg

 

[Framerate]

Because it's fun.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

^
why would u rest a ddd, ever? hes so fat that he lives over 100%. u rest, he lives, u die from f smash. gg

Hey, thats not nice. Has he ever called you fat? Im shure it would hurt your feelings.

Because it's fun.

Quoted for truth

Im just going to explain the factor of heavy characters and rest.

These characters are D3, snake, and link. (maybe more)
No they are not impossible to kill with rest, yes it may not be worth it to rest them. If they are at rest ripe percentage (around 110%) you may think it would be smart not to take the risk because half your moves could kill them. Although if a setup comes you way, I don't see why not.

Im these instences, don't go looking for rests. Let them come to you.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

^
why would u rest a ddd, ever? hes so fat that he lives over 100%. u rest, he lives, u die from f smash. gg

Because his upB begs you to do so.

 

[TheStig]

i almost beat judged's mk on japes. i had him down to 1 stock but then i feel into the water and died.

 

[Thinkaman]

How dod you feel about Japes against MK? I have had little success there compared to other stages because I feel like d-smash grows faster than Jigg's kill moves... Even though this isn't true!

(MK D-smash grows at 90/93, while Jiggs kill moves grow at about 100. (120 for U-tilt!)

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Actually, I just had a match at our Bi-weekly tourney against one of our better players (better player than I am) who has recently picked up MK. I'll keep this away from being about Jiggs doing extremely well against MK

Spoiler

for now

. I two stocked him on BF, Lost horribly on Japes, then I believe two stocked him again on Frigate.

So ya, for some reason MK seems to beat us on Japes. I think this is important to bring up because this is a stage I would think good in this matchup. I would pick this stage, because he also has an advantage on most of our stages because of his aerial game. Japes is good for us for different reasons than our aerial game. Why do you think he does so well against us here?