The Jiggz Match-Up Thread

[davidhudgin]

PND Here:
Okay, I lost my first tourney set to a DDD, as Jiggs, last night. Still came 3rd, though . What I discovered:

-Whoever has the percent lead wins.
-Take DeDeDe to small stages, with platforms. Frigate, BF, what have you. Avoid FD, avoid moving stages unless you're sure you can control the stage well enough to force D3 to approach at all times. (Rainbow). Also, watch out on Frigate. I was ****** DDD, and he charged his Fsmash and I just hovered out of it's range. I had just killed him to his last stock, and was at like 40%-50% on my second stock, and he released the smash right as the level flipped, and even though I had spaced it, I was still hit during the flip animation and died. I lost my massive percent advantage that I had worked all match for, and ended up losing the match/set due to it. This isn't a john, this is just a word of advice. I love Frigate versus D3, but that's something that should be watched for.

Oh, and 2nd in teams. I used Jiggs, Snake, and MK in teams, depending on who we faced. My partner was MK, and occasionally Fox. MK / Jiggs is a BEAST team. So all in all, I walked out significantly ahead in $$$$. It was a pretty good night, I'd say. I had a lot of vids recorded, so when they go up I'll post them somewhere.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Whenever fighting a Falco, I suggest you start out the fight ducking as it will most likely make him approach.

Edit: I forgot to mention that if he chain-spikes you on stage while you are at low damage, and he lands behind you, you can probably up-tilt juggle him.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Whenever fighting a Falco, I suggest you start out the fight ducking as it will most likely make him approach.

Edit: I forgot to mention that if he chain-spikes you on stage while you are at low damage, and he lands behind you, you can probably up-tilt juggle him.

Ya, ducking at first is a great idea. At that distance, Falco can only shoot or approach. If he shoots, you're safe. If he comes near, you can get out of duck before he gets close enough and do anything.

 

[pure_awesome]

Don't duck. Falco can go offstage for Lasers that hit ducking opponents and mesh well with his camp game. I do it against Snakes all the time, and Jiggs can't even crawl. Especially don't duck at the beginning. Believe me, we have no problems letting you sit there 4% behind in a tourney match. If you're ducking, best case scenario for you is it's a stalemate. Worst case you're still getting Lasers tossed at you. You're better off using Jiggs' aerial game to avoid them altogether, but be careful. Going too high is pointless, we'll just IAP to the other side of the stage and start over with you having less jumps.

Anyway. Falco's Bair beats or trades with all of Jiggs' aerials and is faster than all of them, too. Dair beats everything from above and trades from the side. Utilt and Upsmash beat or trade hits. Falco has plenty of tools to deal with what is really Jiggs' only means of damage. Falco's ground game is way, way better and the fact that Falco's grab is mixed into his ground game so often is going to give Jiggs an aneurism trying to use his/her/it's/pineapple OoS options.

60:40 Falco. Maybe even worse if the Falco plays ultra campy.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Don't duck. Falco can go offstage for Lasers that hit ducking opponents and mesh well with his camp game. I do it against Snakes all the time, and Jiggs can't even crawl. Especially don't duck at the beginning. Believe me, we have no problems letting you sit there 4% behind in a tourney match. If you're ducking, best case scenario for you is it's a stalemate. Worst case you're still getting Lasers tossed at you. You're better off using Jiggs' aerial game to avoid them altogether, but be careful. Going too high is pointless, we'll just IAP to the other side of the stage and start over with you having less jumps.
.

Really? Don't duck? While ducking I have never had a laser hit me. If they jump offstage, it should give you some time to react to it.

 

[Gates]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention about the Dedede matchup:

Dedede must cancel his upB before he lands it or else Jiggs will be able to rest him out of it.

And I agree with whoever said this matchup was fun.

 

[Metatitan]

^
that was me

But its definitely at the best 40:60 ddd, I'd say at high levels of play 35:65 ddd, his aerial game competes with her due to its priority and he kills her about 1000000000000000000x easier than she kills him.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Don't duck. Falco can go offstage for Lasers that hit ducking opponents and mesh well with his camp game. I do it against Snakes all the time, and Jiggs can't even crawl. Especially don't duck at the beginning. Believe me, we have no problems letting you sit there 4% behind in a tourney match. If you're ducking, best case scenario for you is it's a stalemate. Worst case you're still getting Lasers tossed at you. You're better off using Jiggs' aerial game to avoid them altogether, but be careful. Going too high is pointless, we'll just IAP to the other side of the stage and start over with you having less jumps.

Anyway. Falco's Bair beats or trades with all of Jiggs' aerials and is faster than all of them, too. Dair beats everything from above and trades from the side. Utilt and Upsmash beat or trade hits. Falco has plenty of tools to deal with what is really Jiggs' only means of damage. Falco's ground game is way, way better and the fact that Falco's grab is mixed into his ground game so often is going to give Jiggs an aneurism trying to use his/her/it's/pineapple OoS options.

60:40 Falco. Maybe even worse if the Falco plays ultra campy.

What, why not duck? I've never seen a falco figure out going offstage to hit us, but good point. However it is extremely noticable that it is what falco is doing if he randomly jumps off of the stage while we are ducking. Viably, he will only be able to hit us with one (her duck is too good) And we can just sheid it. If he goes for two of them, we can still block them both, but falco will be forced to recover with upB, giving us time to approch safely, not to mention he'll be exactly where we want him.


I don't know why we'd ever be attacking under him, because we are aware that our Uair is always beaten by his Dair. His bair is ok and all, but that is not nearly enough to even hamper Jiggs' air game.

If out dash grab goes through any of Marth's moves except Fsmash, then I bet they go through a bunch of Falco's moves. His recovery is extremely punishable by jiggs, and his upb screams "Gimp me!"

We can do a lot more out of duck than you think, including sheild and jump. This means that we can sheild grab AND use any part of our aeral game, and therefore are barely hampered at all by ducking. He has NO chaingrabs here and his kill moves are nowhere near as strong as Fox's, and we do well against Fox.

With all of that against him, I do not see how this matchup could possibly be as low as you say. IMHO, this matchup is at least neutral for Jiggs; a 50:50. Have you even had matchup experience against a decent brawl Jiggs?

^
that was me

But its definitely at the best 40:60 ddd, I'd say at high levels of play 35:65 ddd, his aerial game competes with her due to its priority and he kills her about 1000000000000000000x easier than she kills him.

1000000000000000000 times? but that's OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND!

First of all, the matchups are suppost to BE for high levels of play, so their shouldn't be two different matchup numbers.

Secondly, I don't agree with your numbers. You said his aerial game competes with ours, so why is this a reason for him hard countering us? Also, you should be used to opponenets killing us easier. If you aren't, then you don't know the character at all. It's how you play her. You use her great DI to the best of your ability and you dodge a lot. You can compensate for her that way. I can say I consistantly die with her with over 120% on her, and I always get comments like, "Why won't you die!?!?!" She has good DI. Use it. Look up how to do it properly; it's different in brawl.

The only real reason is aerial game competes with ours is because of his bair. If he's facing away from you in the air, don't fly into his bair. It's not that hard to figure out. Go around him if he's spaming it. Or better yet, count his jumps and dacus as he starts getting low. Goes right under him.

There are only a few reasons that this matchup should be hard for her, and if you don't get caught up in them, you can work around them. Just don't take him to cruise. As Mike said, stick with stages that are small with platforms here, like bf and frigate. This is maybe neutral, but probably more like 55:45 for DeDeDe.

 

[Icyo]

It's always nice to start out the match with a good duck. That way you know whether he'll stay on stage and laser or jump and laser. If he jumps and you jump...you're screwed for a while.

 

[Framerate]

If Falco does a low laser, just use her dodge taunt.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Lol, that would be epic! I'll defenently try that if I'm sure it's coming.

 

[pure_awesome]

I think I came across a little strong talking about the duck before. Jiggs' duck is still a viable way to dodge lasers, I just don't think it's her best option. Ducking keeps Jiggs on the ground where she definitely doesn't want to be, and she's going to be the one approaching in this match so she's going to have to get into the air at some point anyway. Ducking just gives Falco more time to shoot lasers at you while you could be approaching.

And Falco never has to recover from offstage lasers with UpB. He lands back on the stage, ready to resume his normal spam game. You've ducked my normal lasers, shielded my offstage lasers, and now... what? We're back at square one with you standing there and me spamming. You're eventually going to have to go to the air, you may as well do it sooner than later.

His bair is ok and all, but that is not nearly enough to even hamper Jiggs' air game.

Fine, then I'll Utilt you.

Why isn't Bair enough? Falco's Bair is godly. It beats Wolf's Bair. If I've got one move that beats or trades with your entire aerial game, I can just spam the move to wall you out. Jiggs doesn't want to go punch-for-punch with Falco. Keep in mind that with Jiggs always in the air, if Falco doesn't like the situation he can just IAP under to reset the spacing. And that's the thing: Bair beats or trades with Jiggs' whole aerial game and he's still got other options.

I'm going to sum up the rest of the post by saying that Falco's ground game >>>>Jiggs'. Dash grab and OoS options and everything taken into account, Falco's ground game >>>>Jiggs'. I don't think we need to go much more in-depth than that.


On a side note, Falco and Fox have completely different playstyles and saying he's like Fox with less killing power is inaccurate at best.

 

[Metatitan]

What, why not duck? I've never seen a falco figure out going offstage to hit us, but good point. However it is extremely noticable that it is what falco is doing if he randomly jumps off of the stage while we are ducking. Viably, he will only be able to hit us with one (her duck is too good) And we can just sheid it. If he goes for two of them, we can still block them both, but falco will be forced to recover with upB, giving us time to approch safely, not to mention he'll be exactly where we want him.


I don't know why we'd ever be attacking under him, because we are aware that our Uair is always beaten by his Dair. His bair is ok and all, but that is not nearly enough to even hamper Jiggs' air game.

If out dash grab goes through any of Marth's moves except Fsmash, then I bet they go through a bunch of Falco's moves. His recovery is extremely punishable by jiggs, and his upb screams "Gimp me!"

We can do a lot more out of duck than you think, including sheild and jump. This means that we can sheild grab AND use any part of our aeral game, and therefore are barely hampered at all by ducking. He has NO chaingrabs here and his kill moves are nowhere near as strong as Fox's, and we do well against Fox.

With all of that against him, I do not see how this matchup could possibly be as low as you say. IMHO, this matchup is at least neutral for Jiggs; a 50:50. Have you even had matchup experience against a decent brawl Jiggs?



1000000000000000000 times? but that's OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND!

First of all, the matchups are suppost to BE for high levels of play, so their shouldn't be two different matchup numbers.

Secondly, I don't agree with your numbers. You said his aerial game competes with ours, so why is this a reason for him hard countering us? Also, you should be used to opponenets killing us easier. If you aren't, then you don't know the character at all. It's how you play her. You use her great DI to the best of your ability and you dodge a lot. You can compensate for her that way. I can say I consistantly die with her with over 120% on her, and I always get comments like, "Why won't you die!?!?!" She has good DI. Use it. Look up how to do it properly; it's different in brawl.

The only real reason is aerial game competes with ours is because of his bair. If he's facing away from you in the air, don't fly into his bair. It's not that hard to figure out. Go around him if he's spaming it. Or better yet, count his jumps and dacus as he starts getting low. Goes right under him.

There are only a few reasons that this matchup should be hard for her, and if you don't get caught up in them, you can work around them. Just don't take him to cruise. As Mike said, stick with stages that are small with platforms here, like bf and frigate. This is maybe neutral, but probably more like 55:45 for DeDeDe.

You need to realize that all jigglypuff has is her air game and grab game. Once you have realized this (try not to think about it too hard, it can be overwhelming to realize that all she can do is aerial attacks and grabs) you will realize that DDD FAAAAAR outclasses jigglypuff. His bair beats all her aerials except pound, where I have had them clash and allows him to aerial camp us. Congratulations, now you have realized that his air game competes with ours. If it weren't for our air speed he would completely shut our air game now (like how wario does but that's for another day). Now jigglypuff still has her grab game but here is another thing: DDD has the best grab game in the entire game. His ***** ours. End of story. So you have a character that shuts down our grab game and competes with our aerial game. In order for us to have a close to even matchup with this guy we would need to be able to kill him easier than he kills us. This is not what happens. Let's compare shall we? His uptilt kills us say 1.5x earlier than our up smash or Fair or dash attack and is quicker and more reliable than all except Fair (which will probably be a little stale since you need the range. DDD is also much heavier than jigglypuff which means he will live our kill moves faaaaar easier than we will live his. Now for the vague summary: DDD's aerial game competes with ours and forces us on the offense. DDD's grab game shuts ours down. DDD kills us extremely easy, ESPECIALLY because its an up tilt (may as well be a stronger version of yoshi's up smash, that thing ***** us as hard as pound ***** yoshi). So yeah I would definitely say 35:65 DDD's advantage. IMO its a fun matchup but nowhere near even, the DDD just needs to know the matchup well enough to realize that he does really well on us.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I think I came across a little strong talking about the duck before. Jiggs' duck is still a viable way to dodge lasers, I just don't think it's her best option. Ducking keeps Jiggs on the ground where she definitely doesn't want to be, and she's going to be the one approaching in this match so she's going to have to get into the air at some point anyway. Ducking just gives Falco more time to shoot lasers at you while you could be approaching.

And Falco never has to recover from offstage lasers with UpB. He lands back on the stage, ready to resume his normal spam game. You've ducked my normal lasers, shielded my offstage lasers, and now... what? We're back at square one with you standing there and me spamming. You're eventually going to have to go to the air, you may as well do it sooner than later.


Fine, then I'll Utilt you.

Why isn't Bair enough? Falco's Bair is godly. It beats Wolf's Bair. If I've got one move that beats or trades with your entire aerial game, I can just spam the move to wall you out. Jiggs doesn't want to go punch-for-punch with Falco. Keep in mind that with Jiggs always in the air, if Falco doesn't like the situation he can just IAP under to reset the spacing. And that's the thing: Bair beats or trades with Jiggs' whole aerial game and he's still got other options.

I'm going to sum up the rest of the post by saying that Falco's ground game >>>>Jiggs'. Dash grab and OoS options and everything taken into account, Falco's ground game >>>>Jiggs'. I don't think we need to go much more in-depth than that.


On a side note, Falco and Fox have completely different playstyles and saying he's like Fox with less killing power is inaccurate at best.

Jumping right away is a horrible idea. As a falco main who does know a thing or two about Jiggs, what would you expect her to do at the start of a match? Jump, right? If you predict that, and jump and shoot lasers, she will get hit by 3 lasers on the way down and a smash if we're close enough. Not the best way to start a match. Usually, you have to mindgame at the start of a match to try and predict full jumping, not jumping and short hopping to hit with lasers. In this game of rock-paper-scissors, ducking is like picking Dynamite. There is absolutely no way she will get shot right off the bat. Afterward, Falco may decide to do an offstage laser, but at this point, we can react accordingly. Giving Falco more time to shoot at us does nothing, and may even make them approach us.

About recovering from off-stage lasers with upB, I said if you do it twice in a row before landing on the stage again. If he jumps off the stage or falls to do the first one there goes his first jump. if on the way up again he does another one, wouldn't he at least need to grab the edge if he was particularly high up? If we weren’t extremely high up, after he could move again from using the laser, wouldn't he be under the stage? The reason I brought two in a row up, was because it would possibly give her shield trouble.

Why do we have to react once we've shielded you off-stage laser and you start spamming lasers that won't hit us. Just because we're low tier, doesn't mean we can't camp too. What if we hit you with an attack, get enough distance and duck? If we lead, Falco will have to approach.

Utilt doesn't have much priority, and we will be approaching diagonally. Even if we get hit by it, it's not like it will lead into anything more painful very easily.

Bair is an excellent move for Falco. I still fail to see why this shuts us down. If you're going to spam it, we can Dacus under you and hit you with an upsmash. Or better yet, we can use pound. Bair does not out-prioritise pound. Also, the move is limited to the way you're facing. If you're facing us in the air, we can use, like, anything, and if you were facing away, we would use pound. What can you possibly do to her then?

Ya, Falco's ground game is much better. Much. Not gonna lie. Her grab game shouldn't simply be discarded because her ground game sucks. Her throws can put Falco in some really bad situations.

Actually, sorry about comparing their playstyles so bluntly like that. In retrospect, it was pretty insensitive. Sorry about that.

You need to realize that all jigglypuff has is her air game and grab game. Once you have realized this (try not to think about it too hard, it can be overwhelming to realize that all she can do is aerial attacks and grabs) you will realize that DDD FAAAAAR outclasses jigglypuff. His bair beats all her aerials except pound, where I have had them clash and allows him to aerial camp us. Congratulations, now you have realized that his air game competes with ours. If it weren't for our air speed he would completely shut our air game now (like how wario does but that's for another day). Now jigglypuff still has her grab game but here is another thing: DDD has the best grab game in the entire game. His ***** ours. End of story. So you have a character that shuts down our grab game and competes with our aerial game. In order for us to have a close to even matchup with this guy we would need to be able to kill him easier than he kills us. This is not what happens. Let's compare shall we? His uptilt kills us say 1.5x earlier than our up smash or Fair or dash attack and is quicker and more reliable than all except Fair (which will probably be a little stale since you need the range. DDD is also much heavier than jigglypuff which means he will live our kill moves faaaaar easier than we will live his. Now for the vague summary: DDD's aerial game competes with ours and forces us on the offense. DDD's grab game shuts ours down. DDD kills us extremely easy, ESPECIALLY because its an up tilt (may as well be a stronger version of yoshi's up smash, that thing ***** us as hard as pound ***** yoshi). So yeah I would definitely say 35:65 DDD's advantage. IMO its a fun matchup but nowhere near even, the DDD just needs to know the matchup well enough to realize that he does really well on us.

<Text about D3 to come>

 

[PND]

Warning: This is the last night of official discussion for these two characters. This discussion has been open for 2 weeks, and we've had some really good debate going on. Starting tomorrow, Marth and G&W.

 

[Maniclysane]

You need to realize that all jigglypuff has is her air game and grab game. Once you have realized this (try not to think about it too hard, it can be overwhelming to realize that all she can do is aerial attacks and grabs) you will realize that DDD FAAAAAR outclasses jigglypuff. His bair beats all her aerials except pound, where I have had them clash and allows him to aerial camp us. Congratulations, now you have realized that his air game competes with ours. If it weren't for our air speed he would completely shut our air game now (like how wario does but that's for another day). Now jigglypuff still has her grab game but here is another thing: DDD has the best grab game in the entire game. His ***** ours. End of story. So you have a character that shuts down our grab game and competes with our aerial game. In order for us to have a close to even matchup with this guy we would need to be able to kill him easier than he kills us. This is not what happens. Let's compare shall we? His uptilt kills us say 1.5x earlier than our up smash or Fair or dash attack and is quicker and more reliable than all except Fair (which will probably be a little stale since you need the range. DDD is also much heavier than jigglypuff which means he will live our kill moves faaaaar easier than we will live his. Now for the vague summary: DDD's aerial game competes with ours and forces us on the offense. DDD's grab game shuts ours down. DDD kills us extremely easy, ESPECIALLY because its an up tilt (may as well be a stronger version of yoshi's up smash, that thing ***** us as hard as pound ***** yoshi). So yeah I would definitely say 35:65 DDD's advantage. IMO its a fun matchup but nowhere near even, the DDD just needs to know the matchup well enough to realize that he does really well on us.

Please space out what you type. And also, I couldn't disagree more.

This matchup is NOWHERE near 35:65. Really. You suck if that's your matchup number. D3 is yes, a terrible matchup on paper, but nowhere near how bad as how you make it out to be.

First, Aerials don't clash. Period. And D3 can't air camp us. Period. If anything, Jigglypuff can out camp him, really hard. You even said his aerial mobility is bad. We can get a percent lead and keep it that way.

Why are you even talking about his grab game in a matchup discussion? What makes Jigglypuff so good against D3 is she WRECKS his grab game. He can't even follow up with anything from a dthrow. Almost all characters that he can't chaingrab he can ftilt from a dthrow. D3 can do little to Jigglypuff, and in this matchup, Jigglypuff's grabs are far more useful than D3's. Half of D3's game is his grabs, and Jigglypuff shuts that down.

Are you kidding? D3 shouldn't have an easy time killing you. Sure, he's going to kill you at earlier percents, but you shouldn't worry about that, because you're Jigglypuff. You're light as hell. If you haven't learned how to avoid KO moves, you shouldn't play Jigglypuff.

Really, what you named was how D3 is better than us, which no doubt, he is. He does have a better grab game, and a close air game, but these don't matter in a matchup. Numbers mean less to me now than they used to, but this is a straight 50:50 matchup.

EDIT: And what's with everyone being 100% safe? Uair rest is something that's REALLY useful in this matchup. If you work with your mixup game then they will never see the uair rest coming. It doesn't matter if it's not a true combo. Tricking them into your combo makes it worth the while.

 

[PND]

Honestly, whoever gets the percent lead in this matchup wins. We're so good at camping one another, whoever has to approach loses. Take him to small stages with lots of platforms, and play defensively. You'll win.

I know what I'm talking about here.

 

[Metatitan]

I'm sorry Manic but you're wrong. DDD is one of the characters without some sort of tether grab that can consistently grab us. We do not wreck his grab game. When you play a good DDD you'll realize that if you stay on the ground to avoid up tilt, you get grabbed and if you go in the air to avoid grabbing, then you will get up tilted. Up air to rest is stupid because its really easy for them to avoid. After the game n watch discussion I'll probly just leave the puff boards because there are about two or three people with opinion's who i respect. No offense to you manic, I just don't agree with you and you have been wrong on many topics before (such as using Fair for an approach rather than Bair).

Also Mike, taking him to platformed stages will help but you can't camp him because he has projectiles and we do not. Whether you think this is something anyone could figure out, you'll realize that you cannot outcamp someone with projectiles when you lack them (or when you lack the range DDD has).

 

[PND]

His waddles / gordos are so slow that, yes, yes we can camp him. And I've done it. In tournaments. You have a handy little R button on the top right of your controller. Conversely, you have a handy little L button on the top left of the controller. Press those buttons, and behold.

To be fair, you do raise the point that he is one of the few characters that can grab us, so space yourself perfectly. If you space perfectly, he won't be able to utilt you unless you plan to cross over him, or dair him. Space with your bair, and use high, retreating nairs to get out. Only pound if he's in the air, if you pound him on the ground you'll get grabbed or utilted.

 

[Metatitan]

This is the problem with theory craft =/
I would absolutely LOVE to be able to outspace my opponent all the time and never get hit by up tilts. But your opponent can space too so it will happen. Nobody is perfect and you WILL get hit by a waddle dee eventually. You have to realize that while they are slow, he will hit you with one or two. And jiggs can never outcamp DDD when he packs a Bair like his, a F tilt like his, and projectiles like his as well as a grab game like his.

 

[PND]

But. . . I'm not talking from a theorycraft perspective. . . I'm talking from tournament experience. Yes, you might get hit by a stray Waddle doo / waddle dee here and there, but it shouldn't be enough to tip the match. Yes, I've gotten hit by utlits. About once or twice a match, actually, and it usually ends my stock. Doesn't change the fact that I've been a campy ***** and racked up way more damage on him, and if given the opportunity, killed him first.

 

[Metatitan]

The only way jiggs can outcamp DDD is by planking. Ban planking and she cannot camp him at all. He is better at aerial camping and ground camping than us. End of story. If you think otherwise, say hello to his ground game and Bair.

 

[PND]

Uh, no, actually. Air camping works just as well. Just stand on a platform and airdodge around a lot. It's not planking, and it's a ***** to deal with.

 

[Metatitan]

His Bair eats your airdodge. Anyways I think I'll start the GW matchup discussion earlier than normal since I've been wanting to do that. A good gw will never be beaten. Ever. Mediocre GW's can be beaten. I think we all know the reasons why gw ***** us: huge range and priority, amazing kill game, impossible to gimp, horizontal KOs? GL with that. Your best two KO moves against him are drill and DACUS, use DACUS for when he Dairs and drill whenever you see an opening. 25:75 GW

I'm gonna ask leepuff if I meet him at genesis to do some matches for a general idea on how bad this matchup is. I don't think anyone disagrees with a range around 25:75.

Final word, ddd to jiggs is either 60:40 or 65:35 his advantage. He aircamps you (manic please take a look at his bair before you type posts that have no logic in them), he ground camps you, he kills you a lot earlier than you kill him. Jigglypuff doesn't have anything that really ***** ddd at all, but he sure does have stuff that ***** her.

 

[Framerate]

---Really big amazing post---

Will you marry me? No homo

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Please space out what you type. And also, I couldn't disagree more.

This matchup is NOWHERE near 35:65. Really. You suck if that's your matchup number. D3 is yes, a terrible matchup on paper, but nowhere near how bad as how you make it out to be.

First, Aerials don't clash. Period. And D3 can't air camp us. Period. If anything, Jigglypuff can out camp him, really hard. You even said his aerial mobility is bad. We can get a percent lead and keep it that way.

Why are you even talking about his grab game in a matchup discussion? What makes Jigglypuff so good against D3 is she WRECKS his grab game. He can't even follow up with anything from a dthrow. Almost all characters that he can't chaingrab he can ftilt from a dthrow. D3 can do little to Jigglypuff, and in this matchup, Jigglypuff's grabs are far more useful than D3's. Half of D3's game is his grabs, and Jigglypuff shuts that down.

Are you kidding? D3 shouldn't have an easy time killing you. Sure, he's going to kill you at earlier percents, but you shouldn't worry about that, because you're Jigglypuff. You're light as hell. If you haven't learned how to avoid KO moves, you shouldn't play Jigglypuff.

Really, what you named was how D3 is better than us, which no doubt, he is. He does have a better grab game, and a close air game, but these don't matter in a matchup. Numbers mean less to me now than they used to, but this is a straight 50:50 matchup.

EDIT: And what's with everyone being 100% safe? Uair rest is something that's REALLY useful in this matchup. If you work with your mixup game then they will never see the uair rest coming. It doesn't matter if it's not a true combo. Tricking them into your combo makes it worth the while.

Awesome. I agree completely, and this is almost exactly what I would have posted. I won't bother except adding one thing.

His Bair is only one move. It's good, but if we get close, he can't hit us with any of his other moves. If we screw up, we might get faired, but ideally his air game is defeated by him facing the wrong way. If he starts spamming it, there are tools around it.

I'm sorry Manic but you're wrong. DDD is one of the characters without some sort of tether grab that can consistently grab us. We do not wreck his grab game. When you play a good DDD you'll realize that if you stay on the ground to avoid up tilt, you get grabbed and if you go in the air to avoid grabbing, then you will get up tilted. Up air to rest is stupid because its really easy for them to avoid. After the game n watch discussion I'll probly just leave the puff boards because there are about two or three people with opinion's who i respect. No offense to you manic, I just don't agree with you and you have been wrong on many topics before (such as using Fair for an approach rather than Bair).

Also Mike, taking him to platformed stages will help but you can't camp him because he has projectiles and we do not. Whether you think this is something anyone could figure out, you'll realize that you cannot outcamp someone with projectiles when you lack them (or when you lack the range DDD has).

By opinions you respect, I hope you don't mean opinions you agree with... -_-

Anyways, you should listen to Mike on this. He the match he is referring to was not against some n00b. Zylem is an excellent player (I consider him better than I) who consistently places top 3 at our local tournaments. D3 is one of his mains. I saw the matches myself; they went on as mike said.

A lot of people are saying the matchup is around neutral, even the D3 mains, while you say he counters us. That was accepted on the Jiggs boards for a while, but it looks like the metagame has changed since then. Maybe this is just a problem matchup for you?

Anyways, don't take my disagreement the wrong way; I value your opinion. In this case, I just don't agree. I, for one, hope you don't leave these boards. However, in the end it is your choice.

 

[Metatitan]

^
Of course not opinions i agree with, I respect thinkaman and Mike's opinions even though i do not always agree with them. I'm sry but I didn't respect your opinion on falco at all, sure you can duck his lazers but then what? If he tries to attack then what? etc. etc. Jiggs is really forced into a "I can't do anything" mode against falco, and he has control over the entire match. And I never said DDD counters us, he doesn't because he doesn't completely shut us down. It's just I don't expect a jigglypuff to beat a good ddd in a tournament match.

Also please remember that one move is all it can take sometimes. Look at peach's Fair for example. Another example can be gw's Bair (which if spaced properly, jiggs should have little to no options against it). So yes even though it is one move it goes even with our entire arsenal of aerials. The only reason our air game is better is because we are more mobile in the air.

 

[PND]

If DeDeDe bairs, I usually fast fall and airdodge. Due to DeDeDe facing the wrong way, he can either jump again or land backwards, which gives you a grab. If you can predict the bair, you can't beat it. . . but you can get around it. And I've never seen his bair beat my air dodge. Like, I retreat or cross up my airdodges, I rarely do them in place.

 

[Metatitan]

Anyways I'm done on the DDD matchup, I see it as somewhere between 40:60 to 35:65, more on the 40:60 side. And manic don't ever call my a crappy player because my jiggs is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than yours

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

^
Of course not opinions i agree with, I respect thinkaman and Mike's opinions even though i do not always agree with them. I'm sry but I didn't respect your opinion on falco at all, sure you can duck his lazers but then what? If he tries to attack then what? etc. etc. Jiggs is really forced into a "I can't do anything" mode against falco, and he has control over the entire match. And I never said DDD counters us, he doesn't because he doesn't completely shut us down. It's just I don't expect a jigglypuff to beat a good ddd in a tournament match.

Also please remember that one move is all it can take sometimes. Look at peach's Fair for example. Another example can be gw's Bair (which if spaced properly, jiggs should have little to no options against it). So yes even though it is one move it goes even with our entire arsenal of aerials. The only reason our air game is better is because we are more mobile in the air.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I have no idea why you have me down as saying to only duck during the match. Duck only when you are far out of range of any attack when you know he will spam lasers. If he approaches, you can stop jumping. Also, if you'd read my post a while back, which you specifically said you didn't, you'd know that there are a ton of things Jiggs can do if approached while ducking. She is not at all vulnerable while ducking. Here, why don't you read what I wrote, so you can actually argue with my opinion instead of completely disregarding it?

B) Ducking. It's awesome. Jigglypuff ducks so far down that she can avoid certain projectiles completely. One such projectile is falco's lasers. So, if we're far away, we don't have try and fly through laser storms. We can make falco come to us. Weirdly enough, we can use it to camp him. Also, as PND mentioned, down tilt can also be used to avoid attacks in a similar manner (it's the one where she deflates and falls to the ground).

Something I'd like to discuss about ducking is what to do afterwards. As in assuming both players don't run the timer, Falco will have to go closer to a ducking puff to attack. What should be done here? When I do this, my opponent usually makes it unclear if he is going to attack or fire another laser (as he should be doing, mindgames and such). This makes it hard to decide when I should stop ducking. As a result, a Jiggs in this situation will either have to leave the duck early or attack etc right out of ducking. There is no time to stop ducking and then attacking etc as "unducking" actually consists of frames where you can't act. Therefore, I think it would be beneficial to discuss Jiggs' options straight out of her duck. Here's what I have found:

Shielding. You know an attack will be coming. A ducking Jiggs can't be grabbed (I believe), so this only adds to the possibility of an attack coming out. If you see him going for the grab, feel free to laugh at him while you hit him with whatever. Shield grabbing is a great follow up to blocking.

Jumping. Luckily, you can jump straight out of ducking. This means you can use your entire aerial arsenal without a moment of hesitation. This is good when he gets close enough that lasers are not the best option anymore. My favourite implication of this is Dair > rest out of ducking after dodging something. (not really applicable in this matchup, though...)

Rest! Would be awesome, but entirely situational.

Dtilt. Weird. Another use for the useless move? Well then... Although it has the usual problems of being Jigglypuff's Dtilt, it can be done straight out of ducking. Possibly useful sometimes, but not the better of her options to use all the time.

I'd really like to talk about this with you guys to see what input you have. Is this useful? Is this stupid? Any suggestions?

As for Dedede, you never said he counters us in words, but matchup numbers that bad imply that he is a counter to us. I've seen classifications somewhere about it. Well I've seen Jiggs beat GaW in tournament matches. So there.

One move can be all it takes, but I can't believe you just compared Dedede and GaW's bairs! D3's is nowhere near as good. It doesn't even compare. Yes we are more mobile in the air. So much that we fly circles around him.

Edit: WTH? You just heard a bunch of reasoning against him doing that well, you came up with nothing new, and then you just up the number by 5 percent? That sounds a lot like spite.

 

[illinialex24]

Oh **** it is on

Manic vs. Meta
Winner gets some lame as puff ball

I mean....

 

[Metatitan]

Actually IMO the two bairs are just as good, but they really are incomparable because they are used for completely different purposes. We really don't fly circles around DDD unless he is off stage. Out of crouch jigglypuff can do few options, d tilt which is horrible, rest which is horrible unless u want a KO, DACUS which is a horrible approach on a falco, and running grab which is a horrible approach on a falco. His lazers shut down a middle height verticle approach and his bair shuts down an extremely high approach.

EDIT- LMAO alex its not even a war, manic usually doesn't know what hes talking about most of the time but I love the guy anyways (no homo) <3. And you forgot an S on the word *** xD.

 

[illinialex24]

Actually IMO the two bairs are just as good, but they really are incomparable because they are used for completely different purposes. We really don't fly circles around DDD unless he is off stage. Out of crouch jigglypuff can do few options, d tilt which is horrible, rest which is horrible unless u want a KO, DACUS which is a horrible approach on a falco, and running grab which is a horrible approach on a falco. His lazers shut down a middle height verticle approach and his bair shuts down an extremely high approach.

EDIT- LMAO alex its not even a war, manic usually doesn't know what hes talking about most of the time but I love the guy anyways (no homo) <3. And you forgot an S on the word *** xD.

I didn't, its added on...

 

[PND]

You can shield grab out of duck, or jump out of duck.

So basically, anything that Jiggs can do well, aerials and grabs, she can generally do out of duck.

 

[Cold Fusion]

What matchup ratios will be given to these matchups?

 

[PND]

Falco I'm unsure of. DeDeDe will be 55-45

 

[illinialex24]

My own personal touch

Oh and I don't mean this thread btw.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Actually IMO the two bairs are just as good, but they really are incomparable because they are used for completely different purposes. We really don't fly circles around DDD unless he is off stage. Out of crouch jigglypuff can do few options, d tilt which is horrible, rest which is horrible unless u want a KO, DACUS which is a horrible approach on a falco, and running grab which is a horrible approach on a falco. His lazers shut down a middle height verticle approach and his bair shuts down an extremely high approach.

EDIT- LMAO alex its not even a war, manic usually doesn't know what hes talking about most of the time but I love the guy anyways (no homo) <3. And you forgot an S on the word *** xD.

No, they are comparable, because GaW's Bair is the single best move in the game (that doesn't produce items).

Lol, the only option you didn't mention was jumping, the only real viable one. I listed the rest of them for the sake of completeness, though shielding and grabs are useful. From ducking, we can go into our air game without a moment's hesitation. I'm not sure you get what I'm saying, Jiggs has more lag coming out of her shield than out of ducking, and it protects her better. There is absolutely no disadvantage to ducking in this matchup. You are far from helpless.

 

[PND]

Gamerwatch and Marf are up now.

I quoted Gates and Superglucose, if either of them have any objections, please speak up. The ratios are just placeholders for now, don't put too much emphasis on them.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Finally we get to discuss Marth, the matchup I have the most experience with. Personally, I do not find Marth as hard as the Marth boards say he is. I will say this now, the two Marth mains I fight the most are not high level players.

The main thing I watch out for in this matchup is his tippered forward smash. It kills you at around 60% with bad or no DI. Once I somehow survived it at 90%. While recovering against a Marth that tries to spike you, recover from a high position. While recovering a Marth trying to Forward smash you off stage again, recover from a low area.

I will add more later if I remember what I have done in certain scenarios. I haven't fought either of them in around two weeks. Because the two Marth mains I fight the most are not high level, I will not assign a matchup ratio. However, I do believe Jigglypuff is at a disadvantage in this matchup.