The Jiggz Match-Up Thread

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#81
I think its Turnips that gives Peach that slight advantage.
Also, even the thought of getting being able to kill her in one hit with Mr. Saturn (doesn't even matter if she can avoid it, the possibility is still there) also gives her an advantage in my book.

That could be applied to Bomb pulling as well, but they're much rarer.
The problem with the Mr. Saturn is as soon as we see it, we're going straight for the air, and shielding a lot less on the ground. Often, Jigglypuff will already be in the air and will have enough time to notice the Mr. Saturn.

Bombombs on the other hand is ****. My only answer to that is to get as high up as I can so I can see the bombomb coming and avoiding it. Energy Sword outspaces us pretty hard.

I'd call the matchup 50:50 until Peach pulls out something like an Energy Sword or a Bombomb, then it leans more towards 55:45 Peaches favor (Assuming the bombomb collides).
 

Thinkaman

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#83
I agree completely, this is exactly why Ganondorf has such a large advantage against the entire cast.
 
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#88
I think Kirby and Jiggs go roughly even until it comes to actually killing, when it becomes very much in Kirby's favor.
 

Thinkaman

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#89
Kirby has bair, much better killing potential, and slightly higher weight. He's hard to gimp and while not the fastest in the air, has more options than most characters.

It's a bad matchup for Jigglypuff, but not one of her worst. She pretty much has to do the same stuff she normally does, just with less room for error. *shrug*
 

PND

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#93
I'm going to be updating the OP and moving onto Falco and DeDeDe later tonight. If you have anything else to say on the Snake or MK matchups, speak now or forever hold your peace.
 

Cold Fusion

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#94
What matchup ratio are going to be given to the Snake and MK matchup?
 

PND

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#96
SniperNightOwl: Do you mind if I use your post as the summary for MK?

Thinkaman: Do you mind if I use pieces of your post(s) as the summary for Snake?

Falco & DeDeDe are coming up, I'm working on the PND's Take section for them both. On that note, should I get rid of the PND's Take section entirely? Take it down once the summary goes up? Or leave it up? I mean, I'm only one player.
 
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#97
Hey, guys! Long time no see! After being busy for far too long, I've finally acquired enough time to come back to the Jiggs boards. :D I'll try and contribute as much as I can.


Well, in closing to the snake/MK discussion, I have not much to say about Snake, more to say about MK.

First of all, Thinkaman, I'd like to say all your opinions and strategies regarding MK are awesome! I agree totally. I seriously think that the matchup is at least even.

As PNDmike stated (thanks for the mention, btw) that I beat Zaf in a tournament set. Here's some background, though: Zaf is widely considered the best MK in Montreal (it's in Quebec (it's in Canada(It's right above you, JEEZ!))). It should also be mentioned that it was in pools and out of the 4 sets, this was the only set I won. The competition was extremely good, mind you (a ROB player who places well nationally, Zaf, a GaW player, and PNDmike ;)), but it just shows something. I wasn't on my best game, I was playing a much better player than me, and Jiggs beat MK. Although, my experience isn't as wide as Thinkaman's, I can still say that Jiggs doing well against MK is in my experience, too.

As I was saying before, I agree with your playstyle against MK, Thinkaman. Keep him in the air, grab a lot, and use lots of Dair.
 

PND

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#98
To put Zaf's skill in perspective, he was about to win a SET against Ally. He taunted on Delfino as Ally was either dying upwards or about to fail a recovery, my memory is foggy, and died when the stage switched before Ally did. Zaf proceeded to lose the next match and thus the set. Yeah. Zaf is good.

However, Ally ftilted Zaf IRL. Well, he misspaced it so it didn't hit, but I'm pretty sure it scared him.

EDIT: Can we agree on 55-45 MK, and 70-30 Snake?

My takes on DeDeDe and Falco are up now. Go nuts. We'll notify the other boards tomorrow.
 

Thinkaman

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Thinkaman: Do you mind if I use pieces of your post(s) as the summary for Snake?
If I posted it, it's public domain. Go nuts.

EDIT: Can we agree on 55-45 MK, and 70-30 Snake
Lol, nope, it seems we cannot agree. 70-30 Snake is too extreme, given Jigg's damage-building advantage and decent gimping ability that forces Snake into playing safe. His u-tilt and high weight still give him the advantage, but it's not a 70-30 advantage. Based on playing Joker, it's 60-40; a player as good as Joker would have been able to consistently two-stock me with a 70-30 or better matchup. I also beat Karmacide first round of brackets back at NO KOAST, who I consider to be on my skill level... 70-30 would have meant I had less than a 10% chance of doing that.

And everyone knows how I feel about Meta Knight's matchup.

lol Jiggs rapes falco.
This is true. Besides Diddy, it's Jigg's best matchup in the top half of the roster.

Falco has trouble killing Jigglypuff. Honestly, he's like a Fox that can't kill! Sure, he has some lasers and chaingrabs and a great ground game and blah-blah-POUND!

Oh, sorry Falco, I was too busy being in the air to care.

Against Falco Jiggs does need to go higher than usual, due to Falco's excellent jumping ability and lasers. Be more mindful of your jumps, and be on the lookup for uairs (like Fox), but otherwise it's smooth sailing on the approach front... something NO ONE ELSE can say against Falco.

Shine is annoying, but a baited shine lets Jigglypuff do terrible things to the bird.

Falco's recovery is like a carnival for Jigglypuff, but don't mess it up. Always nair side-B. Then nair it again, and again. Eventually his faster speed will probably get around you, but the extra damage is great. Against up-B just dair him. He'll have to up-B again immediately, so leisurely fair or bair him in whatever direction you want. (Under the stage is always nice.)

I don't think I've ever lost to a Falco, actually. All the better ones go other characters against me, and the rest sit frustrated and confused as they get 2-stocked by this thing that they can't kill.

Remember, Falco is pretty light. It's worth saving fair for that early kill, no need to go all out and then have to resort to dash attack, you don't want to be on the ground anyway.

Being very low to the ground against Falco is, momentarily, a really good position though. If he lasers you can land into a duck (otherwise a gimmick) and if he jumps, you can land and shield-grab whatever he does in the air. This will probably get him off stage to boot!

And yes, planking is great against space animals. I don't really have any experience planking, but it's fairly obvious.

*********

Which brings us to DDD...

DDD is a fight of endurance. I actually enjoy it quite a bit, though the matchup is not in Jigglypuff's favor by any means. I'm not sure if I would quite call it 60-40, but it's at least 55-45 DDD.

I am going to once against disagree with PND and say that approaching DDD from the air is always the way to go. In this battle of endurance, where Jiggs is the easiest character in the game to kill vertically and DDD is the hardest, Jigglypuff can not afford any of DDD's absurd 18% damage grabs. DDD's u-tilt is a reliable kill, although not as unavoidable as Snake's... similarly, Jigglypuff's aerials are pretty easy to land on DDD. This fight is all about damage.

First, burn fair. You have much less throw damage to count on, and aren't going to be able to fight DDD long enough with just other aerials to get a low fair KO, sorry. Try to freshen up your fair at extremely high percents (you can bair or dair waddle doos easily!), but otherwise accept that you will probably be killing with dash attack. Remember, if you burn fair but fail to take the stock first anyway, it matters little since your respawned fresh fair can easily finish him to even the score.

Second, DDD's bair is scary. It comes out fast and he can repeat it fast. You need nair if you are going to break through, bairs and fairs alone will not beat DDD!

Third, play cautiously at low percents. DDD's ridiculous weight and fall speed combination means he won't go very far when you hit him. Many moves, especially those that scale with damage, will not push him far, and allow DDD to retaliate. Remember what we said about weight difference? Trading hits is another way to say "lose" is this matchup.

Fourth, harass the grab out of DDD off stage. Know how to best deal with up-b: Your main goal should be to keep the free damage train going as long as possible.

Fifth, rest is just too risky. Except for drill rest at appropriate percents (and not one sooner!), don't rest. Maybe you can kill him early out of up-b or something flashy, but I really don't care. F-smash and down-B say hi.

Sixth, his inhale kills Rollout. Such a risky move has little place in an endurance match anyway.

Otherwise... you just have to outwit, outplay, outlast. Or something.

Edit: Can you double or triple u-tilt DDD at low percents? I don't think the fat tub of lard has ever let my Jigglypuff in early enough to try, but I know other characters have a fun time with him...
 
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Falco
Hands off my bread!
What PND said, don't let him approach with lazers because he will just abuse them. Keep your hands on his bread and stay in close range. (or duck)

Piece of cake!
No falco, its not a piece of cake. The main things you use to win are hard to preform, or impossible against jigglypuff. Chain grabbing is nonexistent; if falco is foolish enough to try another grab (not likely) , just mash f-air. If he follows up with a dacus (likely), mash f-air. I notice that when he does a d-throw, he puts you in the perfect position to attack if he comes chases after you after. His lazers are hard to use against you if you duck so he cant follow up with multi hit moves or a smash.
My opinion for this matchup is in our favor. 60:40....?
57:43


Recovery ability.
Now why do I bring this up on every matchup? Because its a huge part of jigglypuff's metagame.
Falco has a decent recovery. His and fox's recoveries are one of the reasons I hate auto sweet-spotting. In melee you could d-smash or f-smash them as they passed by the edge. Now they just snap to the bottom safely. N-air is one of the best gimping tools against them when he charging fire falco. (lolwut?) It lasts long, and you take damage, but you knock him too far away to land another one at the edge.
His side b is pretty easy to stop if you are in the right place. F-air lasts long enough to halt it with good timing, and if he uses it to land on the top of the stage, (or if he fails it over the stage) get in rest position because it is a good way to land it.
 

Teh Future

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Thinkaman if D3 uses upB and tries to hit you with it rather than get on the edge, its like the easiest rest you can get on any character after you air dodge him when hes coming down. Obviously he has to be at like 100 but that is really low kill percent on a character as heavy as D3, not to mention you should always be able to force D3 in that position because you harass him off the stage so much.
 
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Alright, starting with Falco, I suppose. All in all, it's not a hard matchup. Not by a long shot. I feel the reason is because of how much better off we are than every other character in the cast. I have put these reasons in bullet points with explanations later on. I have been "brief", since most of this stuff has already been said.

A) He can't chain grab us.
B) We have a way of completely avoiding his lasers, namely ducking.
C) He can't use his normal gimping crap, like dair offstage and stagespiking with bair, because of our recovery.
D) Our 6 jumps allow us to totally **** his recovery.

A) Chain grabs. Falco's best aspect as a character is his chain grabbing ability. It's basically child's play for him to 0 > death anyone without a great recovery for him. All he needs to do is grab, chain grab to the edge (add in a pummel or two every new grab), and dair spike them to their death. This cannot be done on Jigglypuff! Not only is it great that we can avoid this BS, but it also instantly forces the Falco to change his play style if he was planning on using it at all. This is pretty nice for us.


B) Ducking. It's awesome. Jigglypuff ducks so far down that she can avoid certain projectiles completely. One such projectile is falco's lasers. So, if we're far away, we don't have try and fly through laser storms. We can make falco come to us. Weirdly enough, we can use it to camp him. Also, as PND mentioned, down tilt can also be used to avoid attacks in a similar manner (it's the one where she deflates and falls to the ground).

Something I'd like to discuss about ducking is what to do afterwards. As in assuming both players don't run the timer, Falco will have to go closer to a ducking puff to attack. What should be done here? When I do this, my opponent usually makes it unclear if he is going to attack or fire another laser (as he should be doing, mindgames and such). This makes it hard to decide when I should stop ducking. As a result, a Jiggs in this situation will either have to leave the duck early or attack etc right out of ducking. There is no time to stop ducking and then attacking etc as "unducking" actually consists of frames where you can't act. Therefore, I think it would be beneficial to discuss Jiggs' options straight out of her duck. Here's what I have found:

Shielding. You know an attack will be coming. A ducking Jiggs can't be grabbed (I believe), so this only adds to the possibility of an attack coming out. If you see him going for the grab, feel free to laugh at him while you hit him with whatever. Shield grabbing is a great follow up to blocking.

Jumping. Luckily, you can jump straight out of ducking. This means you can use your entire aerial arsenal without a moment of hesitation. This is good when he gets close enough that lasers are not the best option anymore. My favourite implication of this is Dair > rest out of ducking after dodging something. (not really applicable in this matchup, though...)

Rest! Would be awesome, but entirely situational.

Dtilt. Weird. Another use for the useless move? Well then... Although it has the usual problems of being Jigglypuff's Dtilt, it can be done straight out of ducking. Possibly useful sometimes, but not the better of her options to use all the time.

I'd really like to talk about this with you guys to see what input you have. Is this useful? Is this stupid? Any suggestions?


C) Pretty self explanatory, really. You shouldn't be careless, but it's not the problem you should be worrying about in this matchup.

D) Gimping him. Firstly, you should get him offstage as much as possible (as has been said). When he tries to use Bsmash, use a lingering hitbox to hit him out of it. So anything that lasts a long time, because the front of him will always be susceptible to an attack. Nair and Dair are good choices.

When he tried to use upB, it takes SOOOOO long to come out, one of your best options is to grab the ledge if it isn't totally obvious that he will make it back on the stage. He will land on the stage, or else he will DIE! *Starting with both hands in front of face, sweeping hand motion away from face; lean forward* It has even worse distance than Fox's.

As for punishing him with an attack while he is using upB, I'd like to ask for some advice. I don't run into players using this move too often, so when it comes up I usually get hit with the flames and get knocked up back. He then recovers, and the opportunity is lost. What sort of range do the flames have, and what sort of moves and angling should I use?


Don't get me wrong, Falco is still a great character. Even with all of this against him, the match will still be challenging.

So ya, all in all, Jiggs does well against him. Especially with some of the tricks present in this discussion, I say the matchup is around even, with Jiggs having a possible advantage. So 50/50 to 55/45 Jiggs.

I will discuss D3 later, it’s late where I am, and I have to wake up in the morning. -_-
 

Metatitan

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^
i didnt read it, i started laughing hysterically when u said we're even/ advantage on falco. he walls us, we cant approach and we're literally a sitting duck (or a ducking sit or w/e, bad pun) when we duck his lazers. he kills us super early in comparison and gl getting him off the stage
 

*JuriHan*

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SniperNightOwl: Do you mind if I use your post as the summary for MK?

Thinkaman: Do you mind if I use pieces of your post(s) as the summary for Snake?

Falco & DeDeDe are coming up, I'm working on the PND's Take section for them both. On that note, should I get rid of the PND's Take section entirely? Take it down once the summary goes up? Or leave it up? I mean, I'm only one player.
no, go ahead.
 
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Falco dosn't need to approach a ducking Jigglypuff. He can jump laser and make another laser as hes coming down which is lower then the regular one and it will hit Jigglypuff.
 

PND

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^ I think you're referring to the silent laser.

If he silent lasers, the only type of laser that can hit us while we're ducking, you can just shield it out of your duck.
 

PND

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what do we have on him that gives us a neutral matchup?
PND'S Take:
Protip: Keep your hands on his bread whenever possible, as approaching this duck is a pain. There will be lasers, and if you eat one, be prepared for a nair / bair / smash of Falco's choice. And then watch as he phantasms himself away to safety, and you have to repeat the process. But all is not lost, we have a few tricks in our arsenal to deal with space ducks.

First, and the most painful for me to say, Falco cannot deal with our planking. If we get a percent lead, and there's no rules against it, hang yourself off the edge and wait for him to come to you. Just make sure your edge grabs are under whatever limit is set in place in your region, and just chill, jumping and pounding to your heart's content. If he approaches you at all, chances are you're going to be facing a dair to spike, or a bair to stage spike. Anticipate these, avoid them, and gimp Falco. More on this later. Now this "strategy" is dependent on you getting past the wall of lasers and landing enough percent for you to have this luxury, and this is where things get tricky, and by tricky, I mean you have a trick.

The second trick I propose: duck. Yep, hold down. If you're feeling especially flashy, you can even avoid them with your down taunt. Until you get to medium range, slowly creep forward and duck under all lasers. Once in medium range, he'll probably stop using lasers, and this is where his other options come into play. If you're ducking, you don't have to worry about the reflector, however you may have to worry about phantasms, dash attacks, and dacuses, oh my. The phantasm can be stopped with a long lingering hitbox, as Falco extends his hurt box right before his hit box. Prime candidates include pound, nair, and dair. From my experience, if I can stop a Falco phantasm, he either goes up and does it again, retreating, but possibly allowing enough time for punishment, or he'll attempt to get back on the ground ASAP, be it through a dair to stop you from chasing him, or an air dodge past into bair. Either way, be prepared to chase him, and try and stick as close as you can. If he Dacuses or dash attacks you, or at least attempts to, I suggest running backward and pivot grabbing. Or running forward and dash grabbing him, whatever puts him closest to the edge of the level. This leads into our last "trick". Gimping.

If you knock a Falco off the level, gimp him, or punish him heavily. His options from that point suck, plain and simple. I've already gone over intercepting phantasm, and his firebird is so easily gimped that it's ludicrous. Just be prepared to read if he's going for the stage, the edge, or is going to cancel. Predict, punish, push the **** away, and get prepared to repeat the whole "Getting close" process again. Keep him offstage AS MUCH AS YOU CAN.

As far as killing, gatling combo into upsmash can get us, as can his Fsmash, uair, and bair, if he hasn't staled it. Our best options are dash attack and fair, as per normal, followed by utilt. Dash attack him if you can read where he's going to phantasm, fair when he's off stage.

Now, from what I've said, this match up may actually sound easy. No. His nair likes to eat mis spaced aerials for breakfast, and his bair will clash with or beat ours. His fair is useless, and watch out for dair and uair. Both of those can be beat by staying diagonal, so do that. As well, if you get predictable in approaching be prepared to eat a shine. Or plenty of them, really. As well, his tilts are pretty good. Dtilt can kill, although when we're that close to him we shouldn't really be close enough to the ground for it to work, ftilt puts quick space between him and us, and utilt can shut down certain aerials.

In summary, this is not our hardest match up, nor is it close. Opinions on this vary wildly from player to player, and has been said to be in our advantage by certain players, as far as others saying this may be one of our hardest. I personally think this match up is pretty **** even if you're patient, so my ratio is going to stay at 50-50, to possibly 55-45 Falco. Falco is one of my secondaries, but there are nuances that I may have missed in consideration of this ratio. If any Falco mains would like to enlighten us, please, we welcome you.
10longquotes
 

Metatitan

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u can only plank and duck for so long. fact is its extremely difficult to get falco off stage, impossible to approach him so idk why ud plank him since it would take a miracle to get you the % lead.
 
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i didnt read it, i started laughing hysterically when u said we're even/ advantage on falco. he walls us, we cant approach and we're literally a sitting duck (or a ducking sit or w/e, bad pun) when we duck his lazers. he kills us super early in comparison and gl getting him off the stage
I have no idea why. Thinkaman already posted his opinion on the matchup and said Jiggs had a much greater advantage than I put. Within this thread. So I don't know why you find what I said weird. And I said that at the end, so I'm not sure how you saw it before reading it.

Firstly, why don't you read it? You totally dismiss my opinion without reading it and simply post your own. That's not an argument.

Why don't you read the royal blue section (part B)? In it I describe Jiggs' options out of ducking. She can do stuff, she isn't vulnerable. As said before, he is basically a fox without his upSmash. I find very little problem against fox, and because fox's greatest asset in the matchup is the upSmash, there shouldn't be too much of a problem against falco.


^ I think you're referring to the silent laser.

If he silent lasers, the only type of laser that can hit us while we're ducking, you can just shield it out of your duck.
Seriously? I've had falco use a silent laser and it still didn't hit me out of my duck. Are there varying degrees of laser height? If it's too hard to do consistently, it shouldn't be a problem.
 
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^I see, then. Well, then can it hit Jigglypuff while ducking? I'm pretty sure it is the same height as a laser with sound...

Also, you should see my post on the last page. Section B (blue part) lists things to do OOD (I love this term) that actually make ducking a viable tactic. I'd like to discuss these options as well as some other things, but I'm getting the distinct feeling that noone reads my posts... :(
 

Metatitan

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yeah i dont think jiggs stands a rats *** of a chance against falco. or a good ddd for that matter. DDD's airgame is good, his bair has huge priority and beats most of our arials. he kills us insanely early with uptilt and dont act like hes not gonna get u with it, he will. ddd outcamps us, out kills us, and frankly adds damage up faster than us. 65:35 ddd
 
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