The Grab Release

[Neon Ness]

First post in the Marth Boards... *shudder*

I use Ness and Lucas, and I'm quite aware that Marth has a grab-release infinite on the both of them. I was just wondering, what are your tactics, as a Marth main, whenever you fight Ness / Lucas concerning the grab-release? Do you go straight for the grab-release as soon as the fight starts? Do you save it for when things are looking grim for you? Or do you not use it at all because you think it's cheap? I guess I'm just trying to figure out if Marth users are as grab-release happy as we make 'em sound on the Ness/Lucas boards. I'd like to hear thoughts and personal preferences from the expert or even not so expert Marths.

On a side note, whenever I request to fight against Marths on the Friend Finder, they leave after one match because they know they can win... So if anyone here is willing to help me build experience against Marth, I'll be on the Friend Finder (If it's working...) in about 2 weeks when I can use Wifi again. Or I guess I could PM people. Just throwing that out there...

 

[feardragon64]

The general rule I find that people use for it is:

If it's a friendly, play along and don't grab release infinite. Basically, I don't regrab, but I might dtilt after the grab release for extra damage.

If it's a tournament, that kid is going down for picking ness/lucas vs. my Marth. Their fault.
And it's stupid to just blindly charge in for a grab. Play with the ultimate goal of getting a grab in mind. Once you get the grab, then concentrate on the grab release. Until then, play as you would.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Lol. Wow they call use grab whores? Nah, my marth actually doesnt grab unless someone gets defensive or they screw up. Im perfectly capable of handling the earthbounders w/o broken tactics.

*hands neon a flame retardant suit* u may need this.

 

[VietGeek]

Getting a grab on a good Ness/Lucas is more difficult than it sounds, so most good Marths will actually try to fight the match normally until you can find the opening for the grab.

Now, in friendlies, the emphasis is "friendly," so most people usually don't infinite you. But...just as feardragon said, if you're in a tournament as Ness especially, against Marth...you're on your own.

I usually use it if things are looking grim. Otherwise I just finish it with a kill move or Dtilt/Dancing Blade. <_<

Where do you live? If it's close to where I live (read: little lag), then I am willing to try to set-up something, since I fail at the match-up against the spastic Ness users.

 

[Steel]

I usually link it to dsmash at high %'s.

 

[Neon Ness]

Lol. Wow they call use grab whores? Nah, my marth actually doesnt grab unless someone gets defensive or they screw up. Im perfectly capable of handling the earthbounders w/o broken tactics.

*hands neon a flame retardant suit* u may need this.

Uh oh. I don't wanna get flamed...

No, but we know all Marths aren't grab-happy, we just complain about the few that do use it (I guess mostly in tournaments), because it puts us at a big disadvantage. I just wanted to see what percentage of Marths use it and in which situations.

@VietGeek: I'm in Gainesville right now where there's no wifi, but I actually live in Jacksonville, Florida. That oughta be close enough to prevent lag... I hope. I'll be able to use wifi October 3rd through 5th, so I guess I'll PM you or you can PM me then or whatever.

Thanks for all the responses so far guys. So far it sounds like most people use it as a finisher, and not a main method of attacking.

 

[Remzi]

i'll never regrab in a friendly, though i may get a free hit out of it.

in real matches, i'll do it if it looks like i might lose... you shouldnt revolve your whole playstyle around it though. just fight normally, when you grab him, dont let go xD

 

[crazn137]

I only use it in friendlies to lead into a dtilt and dsmash. In a tourney, I won't revolve my playstyle around grabbing. I'll just play my normal game, but if I get a grab off, I won't hesistate to infinite. In tourney, my money is on the line, and I'll do what I need to do >_>b

 

[Nibbity]

Yeah, in a serious match, I would do it in the beginning, or when i'm lacking in dmg %, maybe it's just something in my mind that needs to immediatley compensate.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Sometimes, it may be just my timing. But I find it at slightly higher % 40-50% I can actually get the chain going...

Then I either Dsmash or DS...

 

[IDK]

i dont do it in friendlies. in a serious match i'll play normally until i get a grab and do it only if i feel it's not a win anyway and only past like 50% because they get out too fast anyway. also lots of tourneys ban it. i know i shouldn't put up mental rules to restrict myself... but it makes me feel cheap and not good...

 

[prOAPC]

grab release is not that bad
i smash buttons, and get free really quick, and get like 2% per grab (Marth's pummel is weak)
i've been fighting vs Marths since the game came out, and the grab release is not problem for me. Lucas is really good at spacing, so is not easy to grab him
because of me is why everybody knew about the grab release thing (yeah, before "don't use ness/lucas in tournaments" threads), and the first days, it was really painfull, but no anymore
i don't care if you start to flame me, but i eat Marths for breakfast

 

[•Col•]

grab release is not that bad
i smash buttons, and get free really quick, and get like 2% per grab (Marth's pummel is weak)
i've been fighting vs Marths since the game came out, and the grab release is not problem for me. Lucas is really good at spacing, so is not easy to grab him
because of me is why everybody knew about the grab release thing (yeah, before "don't use ness/lucas in tournaments" threads), and the first days, it was really painfull, but no anymore
i don't care if you start to flame me, but i eat Marths for breakfast

...... >_> *cough*.....

It doesn't really how fast you can get out of the grab.... Since it is an infinite... ._. It doesn't matter how fast you get out... The only difference would be that it would take a little bit longer for the Marth to kill you...

Once you get grabbed, you're dead.

 

[Virgilijus]

I don't really go for a continual grab release, but if I grab a Ness/Lucas near the edge I typically follow it up with a fsmash and try to edgeguard from there. Occasionally I will do it three or four times in the middle of a stage or at the beginning of their life but that is more so the psychological aspect of "I have control of the match and can infinite you", which typical makes the opponent more wary of grabs which leads to more attacking opportunities for me.

 

[prOAPC]

...... >_> *cough*.....

It doesn't really how fast you can get out of the grab.... Since it is an infinite... ._. It doesn't matter how fast you get out... The only difference would be that it would take a little bit longer for the Marth to kill you...

Once you get grabbed, you're dead.

no, it's not an infinite, and the more grabs, more possibilities to get an air release, and the grab release ends

 

[Hype]

I'm pretty sure you never jump break unless they screw up the timing on the grab jab.

 

[ColinJF]

I'm surprised how many Marth mains are ignorant of the fact that Marth moves forward whenever you do a standing grab, what with so many people calling this chaingrab an "infinite". It also suggests they never actually play versus Ness anyway, so asking them this question is purely hypothetical.

 

[Hype]

I was just about to say that actually, I'm messing around with it in training mode now.

 

[Hype]

Lucas - Also you have a grab set-up on Lucas. Just grab and pummel him non-stop. When he breaks out you can re-grab him and he can't stop you. From 0% to 20% there is nothing he can do. After that he can DI farther back, but if you are fast you should be able to get a re-grab or a dancing blade. Maybe an U-smash for the kill. If he didn't DI too far back you can get an easy D-smash tipper for a kill at higher percents. If you don't do the grab set-up correctly he can mash jump and other buttons and he can jump out, but if you mash the attack button then this won't happen consistently. It's not really too much of a huge threat to Lucas except that it set-ups up for an easy follow-up attack or a kill at higher percents. Anyway, this just solidifies the fact that Lucas can't go head to head with Marth really.

Ness - This fight is unfair, but oh well. Marth has a grab infinite on Ness. Just grab and pummel him constantly. When he gets out just grab and do it again. Do this till he is high enough to die from a D-smash. Then when he gets out D-smash him. The infinite alone would allow a Marth of lesser skill to beat a Ness of greater skill.

10quotesss

 

[Brinzy]

I'm surprised how many Marth mains are ignorant of the fact that Marth moves forward whenever you do a standing grab, what with so many people calling this chaingrab an "infinite". It also suggests they never actually play versus Ness anyway, so asking them this question is purely hypothetical.

Ok, so it's just a chaingrab that can potentially last as long as the stage allows it...

Which is still too much.

 

[Steel]

I'm surprised how many Marth mains are ignorant of the fact that Marth moves forward whenever you do a standing grab, what with so many people calling this chaingrab an "infinite". It also suggests they never actually play versus Ness anyway, so asking them this question is purely hypothetical.

Pretty sure everyone knows that, and you can still consider it an infinite.

Not that marth even needs the grab release to beat ness or lucas.

 

[ColinJF]

How can you consider it an infinite if it's not an infinite? It's not even zero to death across the whole stage at 0% if you break at optimally, and in practice, you are never going to be chaingrabbed across the whole stage since you can deliberately act to minimise the damage you will take should you be grabbed. Calling this an "infinite" is just wrong. Calling it zero to death is also wrong (although no one did it here, people often do).

Some of the replies in this topic confirm that people actually think it is an infinite anyway, so your claim that everybody knows is wrong.

Also Marth only has a small advantage over Ness without the chaingrab. Ness outranges Marth in certain circumstances, has better aerial mobility, and so on. It's in Marth's favour, but it's not especially skewed. With the chaingrab it's obviously a good deal more skewed though, but not unwinnable.

With regard to the original topic, I would prefer if people used the chaingrab in friendlies (if they are going to use it in tournament... some people don't for whatever reason) since that makes for better practice (some people do do it in friendlies though, not everybody alters their play for friendlies).

 

[Steel]

What would you prefer to call a grab release that you cannot get out of and once we hit the end of the stage we get a guaranteed tipper fair if we let you air release or just do a dsmash? People call it an infinite because that is what is easiest to call it. Seriously, you're making too big a deal out of it.

 

[ColinJF]

I call it a "chaingrab".

 

[Umby]

Didn't expect Colin to make a bighuge deal out of a technicality.

What is a waveshine to you then?

 

[cutter]

I just tested this and I was able to easily get 170+ going from one end of Final Destination to the other. Since a grab release allows a free smash attack, this does indeed 0-death.

If you don't have as much stage to work with, Marth can still rack up an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage and end it with a Dancing Blade for more damage or a smash for a quick kill.

 

[Hype]

I just tested this and I was able to easily get 170+ going from one end of Final Destination to the other. Since a grab release allows a free smash attack, this does indeed 0-death.

If you don't have as much stage to work with, Marth can still rack up an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage and end it with a Dancing Blade for more damage or a smash for a quick kill.

did you test this on a cpu set to spot in training mode? I don't think you can get quite that much if they're pressing buttons to gte out quicker, i might be wrong though.

 

[ColinJF]

It doesn't do anywhere near 170% if you
(1) break out of the grab as fast as possible (to get the most inputs in, rotate the control stick in addition to mashing buttons)
(2) DI away from Marth as the grab breaks, forcing him to slide slightly farther forward (yes, you can DI ground breaks)

It's more in the 50-60% range across the whole of final destination (which is the longest neutral stage ), and I'm not that good at grab breaking. I'm not sure if the computer grab breaks optimally (I'm guessing it doesn't) and it definitely does not DI away from Marth, which makes a big difference. Don't test this versus a computer.

Also, the rate at which Marth has to pummel to avoid a jump break is actually quite fast, and if Ness is attempting to break at an optimal rate, Marth is likely to fail to keep up the pace across the whole stage, and Ness has a jump break that does not make him vulnerable (Lucas's makes him vulnerable though but I don't play Lucas).

Also I'm not disputing that the match up is very skewed in Marth's favour; I'm just correcting some basic facts here.

 

[feardragon64]

It doesn't do anywhere near 170% if you
(1) break out of the grab as fast as possible (to get the most inputs in, rotate the control stick in addition to mashing buttons)
(2) DI away from Marth as the grab breaks, forcing him to slide slightly farther forward (yes, you can DI ground breaks)

It's more in the 50-60% range across the whole of final destination (which is the longest neutral stage ), and I'm not that good at grab breaking. I'm not sure if the computer grab breaks optimally (I'm guessing it doesn't) and it definitely does not DI away from Marth, which makes a big difference. Don't test this versus a computer.

Also, the rate at which Marth has to pummel to avoid a jump break is actually quite fast, and if Ness is attempting to break at an optimal rate, Marth is likely to fail to keep up the pace across the whole stage, and Ness has a jump break that does not make him vulnerable (Lucas's makes him vulnerable though but I don't play Lucas).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po
Level 9 comps break out of grabs as soon as it's possible. Inhuman ability to input commands. They can break out faster than anyone else can.
Still gets to 210 damage. And he could have gotten 250+ if he wanted since he didn't even reach the end of Final D.

But I will admit, practice mode doesn't account for damage reduction. Fine. 140 damage? At the edge of the stage? And a free tippered fair(Which IS fresh might I add)? Apply what steel said about the infinite, but it's def. a 0 to death combo. He didn't START the edge of the stage, nor did he END at the edge of the stage. That along with the fact that against a human player you could get more pings in, and it's EASILY a 0 to death combo, even if you're in the center of the stage.

 

[ColinJF]

I'm not sure if level 9 computers actually do break out as fast as possible (I have not researched the computers) but I am very sure that they do not DI away from Marth, which makes a significant difference. You can plainly see in the video that he is not DIing away from Marth.

Also Ness's jump break doesn't make him vulnerable anymore than the majority of the cast; Lucas's is worse though.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

god you're a ****ing idiot

 

[OmegaXF]

You should ask the names of the Marths they have fought that grab released them. I know I dn't do it because I gets no lotion. Well Tournaments though depends on the person. It's best to counter pick charcters. Unless you are going to play a very tight PK-fire/thunder game.

 

[OmegaXF]

Sorry 4 the double post. Depends on the person if they have vs Ness experience. Don't put that on the whole Marth community.

 

[ColinJF]

That seems pretty unfair NEO (if you were talking to me)... I am just commenting on basic facts. (I'm not trying to claim Ness does well versus Marth... he obviously doesn't.)

But whatever, I'm sorry I said anything... you can all keep on calling it an infinite even though it's not an infinite.

 

[Steel]

god you're a ****ing idiot

hahahahahha

 

[feardragon64]

You should ask the names of the Marths they have fought that grab released them.

^This. Do you seriously think that if it weren't a 0 to death combo nearly every top level player would completely abandon and dismiss the thought of using ness and lucas for tournament play? Or at least against a marth? It's been out for a while. Do you honestly think that if it were a simple matter of DI'ing away and you could get out with damage that wasn't so bad that lucas and ness would be placing in tournaments much more than they are right now since people basically just counter-pick marth against them?

Seriously. Think before you post. There ARE intelligent people in the world that actually think about this stuff.

 

[ColinJF]

That post is really over the top, feardragon. Everything I have said about grab mechanics has been correct. I have done plenty of research on grab, grab release, and pummelling mechanics, and I have a pretty good idea how it all works. It's unreasonable to get upset about the things I've said when they aren't wrong.

But as I said I'm sorry for posting at all; you can call this what you want I guess, even if it means slightly misleading information in your match up guides and threads, it's not my concern.

Good day.

 

[VietGeek]

I'll say that what Colin says is correct. Even on level 9 CPUs, you shift forward slightly. With Lucas, his DI post-grab is greater and therefore shortens the length of his CG considerably assuming the Marth wants to regrab again (in which case he has to buffer a dashgrab).

For Ness, he can DI out just slightly out of a regrab at around +100, and if the Ness player is enduring, he/she can try to shed enough grab frames, and if the Marth player cannot keep up in jabs (due to fatigue), a jump break can be forced, usually ending punishment unless the Marth player expects it. Even if the regrab is successful, it is indeed a CG that moves slightly. At lower percents this is simply a lousy CG that does little damage and cannot kill. At mid to higher damages, where struggling out becomes harder for Ness, it is still viable.

However, it is still a chaingrab. Whether or not the CG is limited to a set length or not is irrelevant really. A chaingrab ends somewhere, while an infinite usually ends at the user's will. The Ness CG is the former (of course).

Also feardragon, top level players do not play the two PSI users simply because the re-release sets up for way too many things even if a death combo doesn't exist. It's basically a handicap since one grab can ruin everything, and most characters can follow up with a decent move if not a regrab. It's not the CG per say, it's Ness's and Lucas's viability in the competitive environment overall that makes it disheartening for most players to use them.

Or something like that. I just wanted to post a wall of text. Feel free to rip me apart guys, k thanks.

 

[feardragon64]

Fair enough. I'll admit I exaggerated. Ignore whatever I said. I was probably just in a bad mood. Sorry about that colin.

 

[takeurlife2]

its limited in Texas tournaments anyway, to 5 regrabs.

i always just follow up with dsmash.

edit: stfu about what to call it...