The Future of Samus: THE LEDGE

[Throwback]

Hive if it's about who can abuse their tactic more, then the most skillful 'abuser' (ie player) will win. Therefore it comes down to skill again.

Imo ledge tactics are very good but I see it more as another string to samus' bow than a be-all and end-all tactic. It's very risky against an opponent who has experience with it.

 

[Mr9]

Hive if it's about who can abuse their tactic more, then the most skillful 'abuser' (ie player) will win. Therefore it comes down to skill again.

Imo ledge tactics are very good but I see it more as another string to samus' bow than a be-all and end-all tactic. It's very risky against an opponent who has experience with it.

this makes sence at a certain point people will see this strategy coming so it loses its element of suprise.

 

[RaigothDagon]

It is good to hear Hive again. I thought she had left altogether, but we still see her around. I kind of agree with you there, it is a little bit disappointing getting a win through some kind of gay strategy. I try to avoid it, but the only tournament I went to I noticed anyone that won against me was willing to do that very thing against me. So I definitely need to work on that and I think that Samus will have a better chance at raising herself in the tier if she does ledge camp.

I also agree with Mr9, once people start getting used to you using a certain strategy, they are more likely to be able to counter it. But Samus definitely has a great edge game, but once again, whoever has the best OoS options is going to win that matchup, so if they are able to punish you for your fair/zair/airdodge -> upB they will win. Especially if they can ledge camp you right back with those benefits added.

Like I said before, Id really hate to see Samus end up progressing this way just to win, but I guess a win is a win.

 

[Mr9]

without a doubt i would hate it if that happened. she would just be another one of those one trick pony chars

 

[Xyro77]

Hive if it's about who can abuse their tactic more, then the most skillful 'abuser' (ie player) will win. Therefore it comes down to skill again.

Imo ledge tactics are very good but I see it more as another string to samus' bow than a be-all and end-all tactic. It's very risky against an opponent who has experience with it.

this makes sence at a certain point people will see this strategy coming so it loses its element of suprise.

what you guys are not understanding is that this ledge stuff is not a "trick" or "secret"

its a legit strat that cannot be stopped if done right. gw/pit/meta and maybe lucario/fox can stop it. no one else. give it a shot. have faith in me, im NEVER wrong. i AM the LAW

 

[Mr9]

what you guys are not understanding is that this ledge stuff is not a "trick" or "secret"

its a legit strat that cannot be stopped if done right. gw/pit/meta and maybe lucario/fox can stop it. no one else. give it a shot. have faith in me, im NEVER wrong. i AM the LAW

like i said arrogant, narcissistic samus players.

but i will have faith im entering a tourney next month and i'll try it out

i really want you to be right xyro.

so im gonna try ledge games when its called for or when i get desperate

 

[Xyro77]

You need to follow step one or you will never be able to do it

 

[LanceStern]

I found a very nice ledge abusal. Samus with Uair is ridiculous on the ledge, and grappling lets you fast-hop the ledge if I'm saying that right. And I just found out that Pokemon Stadium 1 has a wall under the ledge to wall hop off of. Now I can Wallhop -> uair/bair/screw attack.

I am happy.

 

[KillerJawz]

And I just found out that Pokemon Stadium 1 has a wall under the ledge to wall hop off of. Now I can Wallhop -> uair/bair/screw attack.

I am happy.

That wall is gorgeous, it absolutly destroys Ness when we go for wall jump to spike <3

 

[Rhyme]

Xyro is allowed to be arrogant when he's right. Most characters in the game have no answer to this strategy. Even the characters who can stop it, most times the players using those characters will get too frustrated to be able to stop it.

Only thing you should watch out for is that characters with quick OoS attacks can hit Samus inbetween Fair hitboxes (MK/Marth's upB for example). Other than that, bomb jump and dangle by tether to stall and you will have no problem running a timer against most of the cast.

And this is why I haven't been coming here. Samus' metagame is becoming unenjoyable.

 

[Hive]

Hive if it's about who can abuse their tactic more, then the most skillful 'abuser' (ie player) will win. Therefore it comes down to skill again.

Not necessarily. Even though an abusive tactic may take skill to use, if the matchup is made unreasonably advantageous by one person's tactic then it ends up only testing that one person's ability to abuse the tactic rather than comparing skills since the skill of the other player is made irrelevant to the outcome.

but anyways...

@Raigoth- I know, I haven't been around in so long sorry ^^, I've actually dropped from brawl atm to focus on other stuff ^^ I lurk around though still sometimes hoping that somehow samus will get some kind of miracle tactic that will revolutionize her lol. You guys need to find it faster! <3

 

[saviorslegacy]

its a legit strat that cannot be stopped if done right. gw/pit/meta and maybe lucario/fox can stop it. no one else. give it a shot. have faith in me, im NEVER wrong. i AM the LAW

SHEIK! SHEIK! SHEIK!..... SHEIK can stop it.
*Vanish
*Chain
*Needle Storm

If ALL else fails the Zelda has those blasted Fire Balls. However, I don't see ANY reason to turn into Zelda.

 

[Xyro77]

sheik cannot stop what i have created. sorry bud

 

[NO-IDea]

Probably the only contribution I'll give to this thread (because I don't think planking solves all our problems, or comes even close.)

You're wrong SL. Sheik can't stop a Samus from planking. Nor can Zelda. Just think about all the options you laid out and there's an answer Samus can do to all of them, while planking.

 

[Rohins]

I support this. Just be careful if silly planking rules apply. I can offer advice on how to avoid grabbing the ledge too many times. They will be obvious, so please no insults to my intelligence.

1. Don't spam unnecessary ledge regrabs if you don't need invulnerability (easy to do with tether). They add up too quickly.
2. If you are safe (ie they are not going to come down to get you) bomb jump stall instead of regrabbing. You can do this for a while if they let you.
3. Don't let go of the edge unless you have to. You will automatically let go of the edge after a certain amount of time. If you are not in danger go ahead and hold it for as long as you can.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Try punishing full hopped diagnol Needles with no landing lag.
If you are at BF than we can get on the side platform and dangle the Chain onto you.
Vanish has a huge hit box. We can Vanish boost OoS and the hit box will be under the ledge.

ps Zelda has a reflector.

 

[Ravin]

You didn't create anything.

people have been saying use the ledge and stall long before you attempted to stamp your label on it.

This is nothing new, nor does this advance her metagame much more then it has been. This is just another "playing" smart tactic that doesnt help us vs our more horrible matchups.

QQ Less, Pew pew more.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I feel as though it'd be hard to camp snake for the entire match. Although he is somewhat susceptible to planking, it becomes a game of how long can you accurately dodge his cooked grenades. Also, if worse comes to worse, he could use nikita from a distance to try and force samus off the ledge. We all know how the nikita eats damage. Avoidable, yes, but I feel that snake would have an easier time anti-planking than us getting dmg on him.

Edit: Part of this reason is that our projectiles are relatively slow - CG and missles can be powershielded if snake just keeps distance and grenade strips to anti-plank. Pit on the otherhand would be more of a bother with quicker arrows.

 

[NO-IDea]

Try punishing full hopped diagnol Needles with no landing lag.
If you are at BF than we can get on the side platform and dangle the Chain onto you.
Vanish has a huge hit box. We can Vanish boost OoS and the hit box will be under the ledge.

ps Zelda has a reflector.

Because I like proving people wrong when it matters...

1) Diagonal needles don't hit Samus when she planks. Period.

2) If Sheik chain camps, Samus doesn't have to approach. If Sheik dangles the chain over the ledge (you'd have to be pretty **** close) that's just asking for a ledge attack. That's in how to fight with/as Sheik 101.

3) Vanish? Really? Takes too many frames for the hitbox to hit any planker with reasonable reaction speed. And since all the Samus plans to do is plank, she doesn't have to think as much.

... this doesn't mean Sheik doesn't beat Samus. Because quite frankly, planking/camping the ledge... aka stalling... only works when you have the lead, and even then, a properly timed ledge grab leaves Samus open to punishment by half the cast. (Invincible aerial drop from the ledge.) Two factors that break this strategy.

Honestly, if you can stop a Marth from planking, Samus isn't harder.

There ya go.

 

[DelxDoom]

marth is less floaty than samus. His planking style requires more precise spacing of up b than samus's up b/zair. and if he drops+fair, he has to wait for fair to end to up b back, and you can hog him out of that.

diagonal needles can hit samus when she planks yo

(reverse, off the stage needles :D)

 

[NO-IDea]

marth is less floaty than samus. His planking style requires more precise spacing of up b than samus's up b/zair. and if he drops+fair, he has to wait for fair to end to up b back, and you can hog him out of that.

diagonal needles can hit samus when she planks yo

(reverse, off the stage needles :D)

If Marth f-airs and the the opponent ledge grabs, he can stall with DB1 before DS, and at high percentages this can result in a stage spike. I'd say Marth, while not as versatile as Samus at planking, can do just as good as a job.

As for the needles... lol (literally, I laughed out loud), I see what you did there. Clever.

 

[DelxDoom]

It's something I would probably do with Sheik anyways.

Dancing Blade air stall is almost like asking a bair to the face imo >.>

 

[NO-IDea]

It's something I would probably do with Sheik anyways.

Dancing Blade air stall is almost like asking a bair to the face imo >.>

I would gimp you so easily if you daired to reverse off stage needles.

And attempting to b-air Marth is just asking to get stage spiked by his DS.

 

[LanceStern]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaJz1Q2XtK4

A ledge tactic I've been using on Fox and Falco computers. Do you think it'd work on humans?

Can UAIR stop their phantasm attacks (side B)?

 

[DelxDoom]

^don't let em side b. there were a few times where a human player would have just side b'd back to the stage, obv.

No-id: Sheik full jump reverse full needles ***** planking, most of the time. Unless you completely predict it and etc. Then I'll just boss gimpyfish you >.>

Getting stage spiked by DS is obviously the thing to watch out for, i'm just saying that stalling with Dancing Blade is not what they want to do near you, even if it is pretty quick.
You could just drop below their range->zair hog anyways, if you don't feel like attacking.
Force them to land right in front of the ledge and you have a free forward air/something else!

lol

 

[saviorslegacy]

Because I like proving people wrong when it matters...

1) Diagonal needles don't hit Samus when she planks. Period.

2) If Sheik chain camps, Samus doesn't have to approach. If Sheik dangles the chain over the ledge (you'd have to be pretty **** close) that's just asking for a ledge attack. That's in how to fight with/as Sheik 101.

3) Vanish? Really? Takes too many frames for the hitbox to hit any planker with reasonable reaction speed. And since all the Samus plans to do is plank, she doesn't have to think as much.

... this doesn't mean Sheik doesn't beat Samus. Because quite frankly, planking/camping the ledge... aka stalling... only works when you have the lead, and even then, a properly timed ledge grab leaves Samus open to punishment by half the cast. (Invincible aerial drop from the ledge.) Two factors that break this strategy.

Honestly, if you can stop a Marth from planking, Samus isn't harder.

There ya go.

#1 If you time them correctly it will hit her when she attempts to do anything but drop down and regrab the ledge.

#2 You underestimate the length of the Chain.

Also... if you are under 100% percents the Chain can hit you out of anything you do. This includes your ledge attack and snapping (the Zair thing where you regrab really fast).

#3 Well, I guess you could simply refresh you invincibility frames.



If you are under 100% Sheik will screw you.
If you are over 100% it is harder for Sheik to do things to you. So I say go Zelda. You are at high percents anyways so why not just let us Transform easily?

 

[NO-IDea]

@ Delx: Eh. Think what you wish. IMO, I don't think b-reverse needles off-stage is ever a good idea with Sheik v Samus (I'm referring to shooting needles towards the stage diagonally.)

And I have general issues with this tactic period. It doesn't answer what to do if they let you get back on the stage purposefully. Percent lead or not, if you're still planking while they're standing on a platform away from you, or on the other side of the stage, you are "deliberately avoiding conflict."

#1 If you time them correctly it will hit her when she attempts to do anything but drop down and regrab the ledge.

"It will hit her when she attempts to do anything but drop down and regrab the ledge." Isn't that what planking is? I repeat, your needle tactic will not hit a planker. I will also state that this tactic easily allows ANY character to get back on stage with a roll. Needles are not her best option when they've already gotten the ledge. Learn to sh n-air.

#2 You underestimate the length of the Chain.

Also... if you are under 100% percents the Chain can hit you out of anything you do. This includes your ledge attack and snapping (the Zair thing where you regrab really fast).

If you really commit yourself to using the chain from that far away, there is nothing you can do to prevent a ledge drop->double jump away-> super missile. Thanks for the free damage.

If you're platform camping on BF with chain, it still applies because Samus can wall jump off the lip->any missile. Give me a video to prove otherwise that I'm overestimating the length of the chain.

The fact of the matter is, committing to using chain against a projectile user (who can easily abuse them off stage as well) is a bad idea.

Finally, if you commit to chain camping close range while Samus is under 100%, again, roll works. You will hit us when we're behind you for 5%... and then from there Samus has options. SH chain does not have enough hitstun to stop someone from punishing you from behind. As long as they SDI properly as to not get dragged in front of Sheik, it's a free hit for Samus.

EDIT: Looking back at the frame data, Samus is invincible on frames 1-24., ledge attack comes out on frame 25. If you're that close with chain, the ledge attack hits Sheik. Samus's hitbox will connect with Sheik's hurtbox on the same frame Sheik's chain hits Samus if you're close range. And, I'll repeat, if you're not close enough, can do nothing to stop a z-air from under the stage. A video would be nice to prove otherwise.

#3 Well, I guess you could simply refresh you invincibility frames.

Indeed, my good sir.

If you are under 100% Sheik will screw you.

I've already proven why edge-guarding Samus with chain does not work. It only works against certain characters and you know (or should already know) that.

If you are over 100% it is harder for Sheik to do things to you. So I say go Zelda. You are at high percents anyways so why not just let us Transform easily?

If you were planning to transform, you would have done so already, before Samus got hold of the ledge. Unless you're the type of person who transforms after a low knockback move... which I'd hope you're not.

Replies in red.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

November 1 feedback on AiB ladder: His samus is crazy with his zair...don't go near the edge when he's on it vs this guy LOL

 

[saviorslegacy]

Replies in red.

Good deal, I like intelligent debates. (I'm not being sarcastic.)
Sometimes you just get these stuck up idiots that think they are right about everything and have no experience and go off of... nothing....


Anyways,

#1 Needle's still stop anything but regrabbing the ledge.

#2 You will lose invincibility frames at the ledge and will be hit by the Chain.

#3 You will hit Samus before she can pull off the missiles.

#4 filler to prevent confusion.

#5 If you roll you will eat maybe 50% in a reverse Chain lock.
Rolling behind Sheik while she has the chain out is the WORST mistake anyone can ever make in the match up against Sheik.

#6 You are vulnerable for 1 frame.
It is like that for EVERY character.

#7 filler like 4

#8 -_- filler

#9 I am not that type of person.
I only go to Zelda if I HAVE to.

 

[NO-IDea]

I guess before we go on, I want to see chain go through ledge attack. The data provided on the first page says otherwise. If Samus is invincible from frame 1-24 and the attack hits on frame 25, ledge attack WILL hit Sheik if her body (hurtbox) is within range. It's not as if Samus's ledge attack never comes out, so I don't see how what you're saying is true. If it isn't in range, why the hell would Samus ledge attack anyway? Z-air works because the chain is not that long. (Again, need video to see otherwise.)

And on top of that, would like to see roll from ledge be punished by reverse SH chain lock by 50%. SH chain doesn't lock, and proper SDI means Samus can get behind Sheik.

I know how chain camping/ledge guarding with chain works. If Sheik's chain was so good at ledge-guarding, we'd be seeing results in tourney by now, especially after over a year and a half. People have tried and failed at that tactic, SH chain or otherwise because it doesn't work on all characters, or even that many for that matter.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I guess before we go on, I want to see chain go through ledge attack. The data provided on the first page says otherwise. If Samus is invincible from frame 1-24 and the attack hits on frame 25, ledge attack WILL hit Sheik if her body (hurtbox) is within range. It's not as if Samus's ledge attack never comes out, so I don't see how what you're saying is true. If it isn't in range, why the hell would Samus ledge attack anyway? Z-air works because the chain is not that long. (Again, need video to see otherwise.)

And on top of that, would like to see roll from ledge be punished by reverse SH chain lock by 50%. SH chain doesn't lock, and proper SDI means Samus can get behind Sheik.

I know how chain camping/ledge guarding with chain works. If Sheik's chain was so good at ledge-guarding, we'd be seeing results in tourney by now, especially after over a year and a half. People have tried and failed at that tactic, SH chain or otherwise because it doesn't work on all characters, or even that many for that matter.

I have no one to film with + I don't feel like devoting an hour into it when it is getting close to finals.
I would rather devote time into my school. I will make a video eventually though.

A reverse Chain lock is simply that.
The Chain will knock people into Sheik pushing her along the ground until they get to the ledge.
After that lock them off stage.


Because Sheik is over looked.
Once she has locked you off stage you can either get through it by pulling out a move with invincible frames or by going under the stage. Which she can simply go to the other end of the stage and lock you there.
Trust me, I know my Sheik ****.
*sigh* Now if only people would listen to me.....

 

[Rhyme]

I'm gonna have to agree with Noid on this one. Shiek does have some great counterplanking options, but nothing that Samus doesn't have an answer to.

About the chain: I'm pretty sure it would break a missile and CS, but it would lose to or trade with Zair. Samus has such a huge sweetspot with upB that she can grab ledge even when there's a chain dangling over it. Once she grabs edge, Samus has twenty invincibility frames for either an Uair or a Zair through the stage, so she can hit or trade hits with a Shiek who is next to or spaced away from the edge respectively.

About the needles: You do have to land in-between needle storms. We can either edgehop airdodge->buffer upB or use Uair/Zair to frame trap you when you land (depending on how close to the edge you land, and whether you can land on a platform). You also don't know when we would choose to use such a punish because we do have the option of bombstalling->upB sweetspot (which as you agreed, is completely safe vs. needles angled past the ledge).

One thing I'm not sure of is whether or not we could use upB to escape chain lock.

 

[Paladin77]

Oh nice guide, but if you ledgehog/stay on the ledge for the majority of the match, wouldnt many tournaments call that stalling? If this newly found tactic works and isnt banned... then samus might start to rise in the teirs again

 

[NO-IDea]

If you know your Sheik stuff... you're really telling me Samus can't hit Sheik with ledge attack?

It doesn't take an hour to figure out whether or not ledge attack goes through Sheik's chain. Honestly, it takes 3 minutes (maybe 4 to turn on the wii and go to practice mode.) Don't make the video but try it out, because I'm 100% sure ledge attack hits. The frame data says it does, and it's not a tech intensive move (you press A on the ledge) for someone to have to be precise on timing.

And if you're not within range, z-air/missile works, unless you'd like to argue z-air is shorter than chain or that chain can stop missiles (because it can't.) Because that's absurd.

Rhyme, Sheik's chain stops none of Samus's projectiles. Not sure about up+b unfortunately... I want to say no tbh. It takes five frames to come out, plus the frames from chain's knockback, I'm guessing the chain will hit you again before you're able to do anything. I would sooner SDI out then try to up+b out.

Now, I may be wrong about SH reverse chain lock. If you're right next to Sheik when behind her the knockback will lock you in. BUT, it doesn't do 50%. IT does this against computers or ******** players who try to retaliate. If they SDI out and away, at most it does 14-16% (3 hits.) If you're way behind Sheik, you can SDI further behind her after the first SH chain hit.

But.. since I've stated ways (obvious and logical ways for that matter) Samus beats Sheik's chain edge-guard game, none of this chain lock stuff applies.

@Paladin: It would be stalling if the opponent chooses not to approach.

 

[saviorslegacy]

That is really weird.
EVERY character is supposed to have a frame where they can be hit before their ledge attack.
Samus is special and doesn't have this.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Charizard's ledge get up attack over 100% is the best in the game.

It has the most invincibilty frames or something.



This thread is good, this is the type of mindset that people need to have.
Hive used to play like this against me and it made me want to kill myself.



DO WORK XYRO.

 

[NO-IDea]

That is really weird.
EVERY character is supposed to have a frame where they can be hit before their ledge attack.
Samus is special and doesn't have this.

To be honest, I'm only using what's provided. I wouldn't be surprised if the frame data on the front page was wrong.

Someone needs to make the Samus frame data more detailed and accurate...

 

[saviorslegacy]

To be honest, I'm only using what's provided. I wouldn't be surprised if the frame data on the front page was wrong.

Someone needs to make the Samus frame data more detailed and accurate...

We got it from the PSA.
That is as accurate as possible.

I was just going by what I though was a rule.

 

[LanceStern]

The problem I have with this is that if we do this enough then the opponent would start doing it to us. If we sit on the ledge and poke at them, they will do the same. And samus wouldn't have much to do.

I shudder to think if MK/Marth do this.

 

[Throwback]

Samus' frames off the ledge are actually pretty ****. Any and every opponent has the advantage when samus is on the ledge, if they have good spacing. Xyro show us some replays where your ledge game is too awesome pls.