The F-Zero Challenge. (UPDATE)

[Frames]

man this looks pretty fun

i havent read the thread so if somebody said this already then oh well

i think an easy way to do this is to just have a normal serious tournament but anyone who wants to compete for best falcon use falcon

so like if we had a gigs or flg but people would use falcon instead of whatever character they might normally use or w/e everyone else would just use their main

that way it would draw out the best of the falcons if it was a serious tournament would u really use falcon if he wasnt ur main or u didnt feel confident about him at least? the competitive environment would draw out the best falcon players and still have plenty of other people to fight against

like i said tho haven't really looked at this thread much so w/e

 

[h1roshi]

^^ makes teh sense, but im sure he wants a specific "challenge" like this one.

-hiro

 

[bladeofapollo]

What happened to a peach random smasher?

I'd be down to be a random smasher. But only if Dop doesn't wanna be the Peach, cuz his Peach is MAD sexy.

 

[F Zero]

I'll add you to the list Apollo.
If everyone agrees that placing in tournament with Falcon makes you a good falcon, that's fine. I'm going to enter, and any other Falcons that are confident can enter too. The tourny costs money, but the challenge is free, so we can do both. There's no reason not to. If no one thinks the challenge will yield conclusive results, that's fine too. We'll just see who the highest tournament-placing Falcon is.

Considering what's been said, I will be less strict, and have 5 Random Smashers play the Falcons 2x each.
10 matches for the Falcons, 20 for each Random Smasher. Sound more conclusive/more fun?

And SynikaL, no pressure bro.

 

[Dark Sonic]

SYN, you have amazing posts!!! i see your point though. like i just watched vids of the last cali tourney and mango beat spectre in grand finals with falcon. But that might just be because mango is that much better as an overall player. Its hard to say if hes a better falcon or a better player.

-hiro

If he places higher with Falcon than SS....then he's the better Falcon.

When you say that someone has the best "insert character here" then you are saying that they win with that character more than any other player. The best bowser would win more than any other bowser, ect, ect. Knowledge or proficiency of the character doesn't make you better than someone else, it is the application that does.

 

[QDVS]

Well I'm going to start going Falcon/Falco in tourneys again!!!

Might go all Falcon at Tally this weekend, so we'll see how I do!!!

 

[AfroQT]

Well I'm going to start going Falcon/Falco in tourneys again!!!

Might go all Falcon at Tally this weekend, so we'll see how I do!!!

Do it for sensei chops.

 

[SynikaL]

If he places higher with Falcon than SS....then he's the better Falcon.

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong, but it's clear you're not being thoughtful at all. You didn't consider anything I said.

So hypothetically, any random Falcon player that may happen to place higher than Spectre at a single tournament (such as let's say, Genesis), is an objectively better Falcon than Spectre, ignoring all previous accomplishments achieved by him?

Mango used Falcon one tourney, I think, and the rest were just Falcon dittoes versus Spectre, which Mango won handedly -- that's a robust and objective criteria for judging? Sounds bunk.

Knowledge or proficiency of the character doesn't make you better than someone else,

Of course not in general, but I'd argue it's worth considering when narrowed down to a single character. The character you choose is just a solitary competitive apparatus, kind of like having a good jumper in basketball. But just because your jumper's better than mine, doesn't mean I won't beat you handedly by just generally being better at basketball than you -- remember we both have to make baskets to win.

Just like we both have to pick characters to win.

In my opinion, your character can be objectively better than someone else's in Melee in the same way a person's jump shot can be objectively better in basketball.

Two elements/variables that are merely single tools in a larger toolbox that can fluctuate in quality depending upon how much dedication the carpenter applies to either. The best carpenter is in harmony with the toolbox itself, and has no affairs with the hammer.

-Kye

 

[lamugi]

**** kye you're pretty **** smart

 

[SynikaL]

Nah. Just thoughtful.


-Kye

 

[Dark Sonic]

So hypothetically, any random Falcon player that may happen to place higher than Spectre at a single tournament (such as let's say, Genesis), is an objectively better Falcon than Spectre, ignoring all previous accomplishments achieved by him?

Mango used Falcon one tourney, I think, and the rest were just Falcon dittoes versus Spectre, which Mango won handedly -- that's a robust and objective criteria for judging? Sounds bunk.

Of course I'm talking about averages. If one person consistently places higher than another...then they are better.

Of course not in general, but I'd argue it's worth considering when narrowed down to a single character. The character you choose is just a solitary competitive apparatus, kind of like having a good jumper in basketball. But just because your jumper's better than mine, doesn't mean I won't beat you handedly by just generally being better at basketball than you -- remember we both have to make baskets to win.

Just like we both have to pick characters to win.

Ah but here's the thing, we are not comparing a single aspect of the game (such as jumping in basketball. That would be comparable to say...ledgeteching), we are comparing they entire thing, only using these specific characters as a medium to express this skill. We are asking who is the best smash player with Falcon. To say someone has the best Falcon is to say that they are better at this game than anyone else playing Falcon. If there exists another Falcon player (not main, better player) then they are not the best because someone outdoes them in the very area that we are measuring.

In my opinion, your character can be objectively better than someone else's in Melee in the same way a person's jump shot can be objectively better in basketball.

But how do you measure this? How do you measure how "good" someone is. Using your basketball example, you'd obviously measure by what percentage of jumpshots each person makes right? In other words, how often does he score. I am applying the same thing here, comparing their percentage of wins for tournaments that they both attend.

Two elements/variables that are merely single tools in a larger toolbox that can fluctuate in quality depending upon how much dedication the carpenter applies to either. The best carpenter is in harmony with the toolbox itself, and has no affairs with the hammer.

-Kye

That analogy...kinda lost me. A character in smash is a tool with which you express your skill. To say someone has the "best" character is to say that they have more skill with that character than anyone else does right? So it doesn't matter that SS has better tech skill, or better execution, or better knowledge of the character, because these things alone don't make you better. It's those who apply this knowledge in matches that the better ones, and the simplest way to measure that is through wins.

 

[SynikaL]

Okay Dark, I disagree.

I've already addressed your points in previous posts. The only way to move this argument forward would be to challenge your conception of "winning" being the only worthwhile value for a competitor to abstract from the concept/experience of "competition". I'm sure that sounds insane to you (no fault of your own) and to provide clarity for that position would require a thesis.

*edit*

I don't want to make it sound as though I think I'm right or you're wrong regarding this. I don't think this is a matter of perspective either. I do think I'm being more reasonable, however.

Or at least, more determinate in my reasoning.

-Kimosabae

 

[bladeofapollo]

Sounds like whether you believe in "Ends justify the means" or not

-harriet at apollo's

 

[SynikaL]

Something along those lines.


-Kye

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's not that I believe that Ends justify the means, it's that I believe that the term "best" implies that they would be able to beat all others in that area of expertise.

So then what we would be challenging my definition of the word "beat" which to me means "win against."

I don't believe that winning is the only thing that matters in a competitive environment. The point of competition is ultimately to have fun, but I have the most fun when I'm trying to win against an opponent who is also trying to win. I have even more fun when I have the feeling that I don't have any idea what the outcome of the match will be. But I do believe that winning is the only form of measurement that is even remotely usable for defining things such as "skill." We have nothing as concrete as tournament results (and even those have their flaws really), so it is what I think should be used.

So in a nutshell...I guess I don't know anything else that could be used as a criteria for "being the best." Sure I wouldn't support wins by illegitimate methods (cheating), but anything else goes. You may have better techskill, better knowledge of the character, ect, ect, but if you cannot apply those concepts in a real match and actually win while someone else can (this is an average of course), then you are not as good as them. I guess I'm just kinda repeating myself now, since I don't think I really understood your counter arguement.

 

[Finch]

Even though Mango would probably outplace Colin in any tournament by going all fox, I find Mango's fox painful to watch because of how technically sloppy and mediocre it is, and I would never want to say that Mango has a better fox than Colin.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I would, since better techskill=/=better overall (see M2K compared to Silent Wolf) I'm not afraid to admit that some top level player who rarely plays Marth could have a better Marth than me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1h6w2HcSiI

lol? So sloppy with so many mistakes, and yet he lands things that I wouldn't have landed. Of course I'm not going to take one video as proof (lol @ Darkrain messing up the Marth killer at the end), but still, you get my point.

 

[Finch]

You are completely missing the point.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^So you want to know who is better at technical execution with the character? Because that's not what was originally asked. Being flashy and even being precise are not what makes someone good to me. What makes them good is being effective. So in a sense, yes you could say that to me the ends justify the means (though not in as extreme a sense as the phrase itself implies)

 

[SynikaL]

But I do believe that winning is the only form of measurement that is even remotely usable for defining things such as "skill." We have nothing as concrete as tournament results (and even those have their flaws really), so it is what I think should be used.

Your ability to think freely is clear in this post -- so is the brick wall, manifested as a social construct, that cages that capacity.

"Skill" is a very broad and abstract term that you're essentially stifling with the expectations of the competitive Smash community.

I'm kinda playing Devil's Advocate here, but surely you see where I'm coming from now.

-Kimo

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I kinda get it I think. What your saying is by saying winning should be used to measure skill, I'm placing a concrete criteria on an abstract concept? Basically, everybody's definition of skill varies slightly, so my measuring criteria is too small to satisfy everybody?

 

[SynikaL]

^^I kinda get it I think. What your saying is by saying winning should be used to measure skill, I'm placing a concrete criteria on an abstract concept?

Yes.

And the value of that concept will fluctuate depending upon where it rests. The Smash community does not have a stranglehold on it.

Basically, everybody's definition of skill varies slightly, so my measuring criteria is too small to satisfy everybody?

It certainly doesn't satisfy me

And that's partially my point, also. The general Smash community has constructed a very stringent criterion to express its idea of "skill" (and you're obviously attempting to reconcile your own criterion with that) -- but does that necessarily make their conception the definitive barometer for each and every clearly debatable case, such as Spectre and Mango, to be judged by?

I dunno, the Smash community is relatively small when compared to the rest of the world.


-Kye

 

[harriettheguy]

Nairs per minute. Queen colbol where u at?

 

[OTRU...]

in my opinion best falcon in florida goes to derf, i wonder if he still plays tho

 

[crispyone]

I just played against Derf last Sunday. His falcon is getting back into shape, although his sheik is his best character right now in my opinion. He has more control over her. If I could pick a Falcon, it would be Fred's. Sorry Queen.

 

[xYz]

i pick synikal's falcon for most stylish, I though I had moves....

We had a fashion match once.

Best falcon in FL is def, def def Hiroshi.

 

[hungrybox]

yes hiroshi has the best falcon

 

[QDVS]

I'd pick Derf's too, no need for people to think I'd be offended!!!

Because he's done the most (tourney placings wise) with his Falcon...even if it was back in the day!!!

I'd be interested to see if Derf came back how he'd be doing!!!

 

[F Zero]

I'd pick Derf's too, no need for people to think I'd be offended!!!

Because he's done the most (tourney placings wise) with his Falcon...even if it was back in the day!!!

I'd be interested to see if Derf came back how he'd be doing!!!

I would too. I want him to show up and beat us all.
And O_o at synikal's posts...

SynikaL, if consistently placing in tournaments doesn't measure skill for you, what does? What's your definition of the term?

 

[SynikaL]

i pick synikal's falcon for most stylish, I though I had moves....

lol, you got moves, I just enjoy playing the game alone way more than most people.

Everyone's talking about Derf, I really wanna see his Falcon. Back in the day, I remember him always playing Luigi/Sheik and he was rarely at any tournament I was at.

F-Zero:

Just to keep things simple, I do think tournament placings are an objective measure of a person's skill. It's just not the only absolute criteria I'm willing to look at.



-Kimosabae

 

[F Zero]

True. Someone needs to get a hold of Sick. His Falcon is good for sure. He's probably better than half of our participants, and he doesn't even go to tournies.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

True. Someone needs to get a hold of Sick. His Falcon is good for sure. He's probably better than half of our participants, and he doesn't even go to tournies.

Sick is Nastee.

 

[S(Prin)Kull(Ce)]

almost...too good

 

[h1roshi]

my falcon is pretty ****!!!!!!!!

sick is sick.

-hiro

 

[xYz]

sick is sick because he trains with Skratch and OTRU

skratch has a sick falcon as well.

 

[crispyone]

Looks like derf doesn't have faith in his falcon. In that case, andy or josh will take this. I should maybe rethink that after what Josh pulled last night haha.

 

[h1roshi]

Looks like derf doesn't have faith in his falcon. In that case, andy or josh or hiroshi will take this. I should maybe rethink that after what Josh pulled last night haha.

fixed.

-hiro

 

[crispyone]

fixed.

-hiro

Haha. Nice try.

 

[h1roshi]

Haha. Nice try.

ok, i lose

-hiro

 

[OTRU...]

True. Someone needs to get a hold of Sick. His Falcon is good for sure. He's probably better than half of our participants, and he doesn't even go to tournies.

we've actually been playing with him and nasty a lot lately, we played all day today

ill make sure to take him to the tourney i live like 5 min from him