The Elements of Brawl - Zoning, Spacing, Killing, and Surviving

[DRaGZ]

Depends on who your facing, if an opponent is coming you can stall them for a moment with eggs increasing there damage slightly or causing them to AD or swerve to avoid them.
you can rack up damage before they're even close to the edge and intercept them with an N-air,
It's not the Jesus of Edgeguarding but it can be helpful and is to be included in his arsenal of "Gimping" tools/off stage.





Yes Dedede is comfortable, but the DDD hype is a bit over the top.
he can chill near the edge and what not with no problems, and come back to the stage periodically, and stay out there better than yoshi, but I feel that his gimping potential (not near the ledge, but further out from it) is worse than yoshi's due to his aerial momentum.

DDD can be a blockade near the ledge because he can stay in the air safely, but if he has to go further out I find he's not as good as Yoshi in that area because of the speed it takes for him to get there.

That's why I rated his gimping potential as just "average". I totally agree with you there.

But even if it takes him a while to get out there, he's definitely comfortable once he's there. The issue here, primarily, is not whether how easy it is to get into a zone, but rather how effective a character is once he's reached that zone.

Zoning =/= killing. You can be really effective at racking up damage but still be a sucky character if you have trouble killing.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

That's why I rated his gimping potential as just "average". I totally agree with you there.

But even if it takes him a while to get out there, he's definitely comfortable once he's there. The issue here, primarily, is not whether how easy it is to get into a zone, but rather how effective a character is once he's reached that zone.

Zoning =/= killing. You can be really effective at racking up damage but still be a sucky character if you have trouble killing.

DDD is good at the aerial thing, but only so far,

you can start to see somewhat past the ledge in this picture (why is it so hard to get a full picture of FD? dammit) about what 4/5 blocks away past the ledge, DDD has used up maybe 2-4 jumps, This makes his Aerial Zoning somewhat limited.

Around the stage he's great obviously, further out he suffers from that lack of speed, where as Metaknight, Pit and R.O.B don't have the same speed issue DDD has.

This kind of Helps Yoshi's Zoning, because he's so fast he can race through the Air to gimp, and if he's playing on the stage he can go into punish through the air Faster (not necessarily better) than DDD.

Sorry if I ended up just rehashing what your saying I have a habit of doing that sometimes instead of making my point >.>

 

[Mmac]

Lol at DeDeDe's edgeguard being overrated.

To be "amazing" a character has to be comfortable jumping off-stage, i.e. it can actually be advantageous for them to throw themselves off-stage because it actually gives themselves more options, especially if they are having trouble approaching or camping otherwise. DeDeDe is obviously very very comfortable off-stage. As is R.O.B. And Meta Knight is so comfortable off-stage it's like floating on clouds for him.

On the other hand, Snake does not ever want to be taken off-stage. Nor does Falco. Now, does Yoshi technically really want to be taken off-stage? Does he actually give himself an advantage if he throws himself off-stage? I mean, what can he really do from there other than spam eggs and potentially get himself in trouble? R.O.B., DeDeDe, and Meta Knight are very comfortable off-stage, enough to the point that many games can hinge on what they do there. Yoshi...not so much.

What do you mean all he can do off stage is throw eggs? Haven't you listen to me at all? Bair and Nair works good for simply knocking them back, and Dair can Semi-Spike or can actually "Lock in" doing more than 30% of damage fresh, and can combo into a Footstool or Rising Nair out of it. Not to mention Nair and Uair can Stage Spike on most stages. He can also ledge camp with Bair. He's also nothing like Falco or Snake at all where if they're off stage, they're in trouble. Yoshi can edgeguard comfortably at long and/or low distances just fine.

Plus you grouped this together with Ledge Games and Recovery, Both he excels in greatly.

If anything, I think you'd agree that a lot of Yoshi's best stuff is done on ground or at least above solid ground, right? (the chaingrabs for one)

It completely depends on the character he is fighting though. Some aspects he does better on the ground than in the air, while other characters vice versa. Generally, I think his Physical Air Game is better than his Physical Ground Game. Plus his Good stuff is usually used in Defencive Styles, where I think "Zoning" is generally offencive

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshis are better air character than a ground character.
This has the potential to change though and flip but eh....

 

[K 2]

Here's the link to the pika post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5596389#post5596389

You can copy and paste it or do whatever. I hope this works out with all the characters! I'm interested to see how they all stack up!

Edit: Can you hold on for a few days? I actually want to get a few more people's inputs. I'll tell you when its ready

 

[ShadowLink84]

Doing well is the point of this system. And I know the person who wrote it placed more points, but that post was sarcasm.

I could not tell.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Wow I think i confuzzled What Mid range actually was.

Yoshi for Zoning from my output should be now

Extreme: bearable

Long: decent (between bearable and comfortable)

Mid: comfortable

short: comfortable.

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi is comfortable in Extreme Long Ranges. there's only 4 Characters that can outcamp him from across the stage (Falco, Pit, Link, and ROB), and even Link/ROB is a maybe. He is completely safe from that range, and can harass them perfectly from there.

 

[Zankoku]

What do you mean all he can do off stage is throw eggs? Haven't you listen to me at all? Bair and Nair works good for simply knocking them back, and Dair can Semi-Spike or can actually "Lock in" doing more than 30% of damage fresh, and can combo into a Footstool or Rising Nair out of it. Not to mention Nair and Uair can Stage Spike on most stages. He can also ledge camp with Bair. He's also nothing like Falco or Snake at all where if they're off stage, they're in trouble. Yoshi can edgeguard comfortably at long and/or low distances just fine.

Plus you grouped this together with Ledge Games and Recovery, Both he excels in greatly.

Can, can, can. I've rarely seen Yoshi do an offstage edgeguard and not get brutally punished for it. His ledge game, if you can call it that, isn't actually as safe as people seem to think. His recovery is above average, but not amazing. A heavy-armored double jump and the air-dodge thing can get him places but he will not typically be able to punish an edgeguard attempt - only escape it.

 

[Deleted member]

Dragz doesnt come to tournaments anyways, so he had the chance to lose to my yoshi (that was a fake challenge by the way )

Jk <3

 

[Mmac]

Can, can, can. I've rarely seen Yoshi do an offstage edgeguard and not get brutally punished for it.

I usually edgeguard with Dair, and I rarely get heavily punished by it. Anyone who thinks that Yoshi can't go offstage is completely hysterical. It's completely safe for him to leave the stage against most characters.

His ledge game, if you can call it that, isn't actually as safe as people seem to think.

How is it not safe? unless he's bombarding onstage opponents point blank, or doing something stupid to off stage opponents such as fastfall Dair, Then it's as pretty much as it's safe as it gets. Also what exactly do you consider a "Ledge Game"? If off ledge Bairs and Ledge Bombardments not a "Ledge Game", Then I have no idea what is.

His recovery is above average, but not amazing. A heavy-armored double jump and the air-dodge thing can get him places but he will not typically be able to punish an edgeguard attempt - only escape it.

Isn't the entire point of a Recovery is to.... Recover? Should he really be ranked down due to not being able to punish Edgeguarders with your recovery, when his recovery pretty much allows him to avoid almost every direct edgeguarding attempt?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Can, can, can. I've rarely seen Yoshi do an offstage edgeguard and not get brutally punished for it. His ledge game, if you can call it that, isn't actually as safe as people seem to think. His recovery is above average, but not amazing. A heavy-armored double jump and the air-dodge thing can get him places but he will not typically be able to punish an edgeguard attempt - only escape it.

This is correct.
You so smart Ankoku (I'm not being sarcastic so don't wig out)
This is for you

Ya he can escape edgeguards attempts but has trouble punishing them, this is mostly due to landing lag however.

See but thats when he's in a defensive position.

I think we all know Defense is not Yoshi's strong point, whether or Air, ground or sea, no matter how many options he has theres always some issue for him with defense.
However put yoshi off stage on the offensive, stopping his Gimping attempts is now harder.
The opponent is now in a defensive position and not Yoshi, Yoshi can cut through offensive attempts with DJAD (most of the time, not all the time) but most people simply can't do that due to the nature of their recoveries.
So most people have to either take Yoshi on aerially or just take the hit.
Taking Yoshi on aerially while he's on the offensive off-stage may not be that smart, people with poor recoveries have a hard time risking that as 1 hit will end in death when they are focusing on getting back to that stage. People with great recoveries/Off stage games, well there is a reason they are in AMAZING right and not in above average with Yoshi.

I think you and I (I think...im not exactly 100% sure on your stance) that Yoshi is Above average in this category not Amazing.

His ledge game isn't that safe, I agree but ECE gives reason for the opponent to approach and try and take him off the edge (though you could just wait him out for when he returns to the stage to refresh),


Though, I'm not the most knowledgable Smash player in the shed so take what I say with a tablespoon of salt.

I usually edgeguard with Dair, and I rarely get heavily punished by it. Anyone who thinks that Yoshi can't go offstage is completely hysterical. It's completely safe for him to leave the stage against most characters.

Your guarding the ledge with D-air? I prefer B-air, D-airs range is a little iffy and with Back air I can try and space myself out of range from certain disjointed hitboxed recoveries.
D-air I find (but thats my experience not yours) on people like Jigglypuff and Bowser since you can hit them out of their attack with it.
Also if you Miss a D-air it sucks because your forced to go down with it since it drags you down and lasts a relatively long time. So when you Miss a D-air people should be able to punish you, unless they were really knocked far.

Isn't the entire point of a Recovery is to.... Recover? Should he really be ranked down due to not being able to punish Edgeguarders with your recovery, when his recovery pretty much allows him to avoid almost every direct edgeguarding attempt?

I kinda wonder this too, but Recoveries are better if they can clear people away from you so, in that respect being able to punish while recovering is a benefit. Then again, saving your own skin comes first.....sometimes.


Scratch that tablespoon of salt, take what I say with a bag of salt, I might be an idiot (not sure yet though)

 

[Zankoku]

Above Average is very defendable for Yoshi. Amazing is not.

Mmac, if I see Yoshi going off-stage, I pay very close attention to his position off-stage. And typically I'm not half-asleep so I can react quickly enough to hit him if he's chasing me off-stage.

 

[Iris]

Zelda

ZONING

On the ground - Zelda's got a bunch of kill moves here, and the spammable ground moves do decent damage. Long hit durations can be a boon or a bain, but she can can defend herself well from aerials and punish dodgers with little effort. Her projectile is lacking, but her range is acceptable for some one without a sword. Unfortunately, she lacks many reliable strings/combos.
Rating: Above Average

In the air - Terrifying. She's got the strongest set of aerials in the game. Sweetspotted aerials do massive damage and can kill at shockingly low percents. Unfortunately, landing them is another thing. Especially on wi-fi, timing your kicks require lots of precision and courage. Your best times for lightning kicks are out of shields and hopefully interrupting aerial combos. Zelda's low air mobility makes her mildly predictable and open for attacks. Nair is underrated and her recovery is weak if you can't use every angle.
Rating: Average

Off-stage - Din's fire is habitual and mostly fruitless. Until your opponent reaches a point where air-dodge = death, the chances of this hitting or applying some sort of pressure are low. Dair's strong, but precise. It's a bit laggy, so sometimes it's better, and generally safer, to throw out other aerials, which many don't realize are equally deadly to most recoveries. All in all, her attacks are risky and avoidable, and improper use of Farore's will get you killed.
Rating: Below Average

SPACING

Extreme long distance - She's got a projectile and reflector. They're not much but they're her's. She's better off here than most characters, but her offensive options are limited.
Rating: Comfortable

Long distance - Scary. Her range is too small for hyphen smashing, she's too slow for dash attempts, and her reflector/projectile are both too laggy to use safely. Use empty short hops or a safely timed Farore's to get out of this area immediately.
Rating: Uncomfortable

Medium distance - Most of her mid range moves are slow and only hit on one side. She can punish rolls well with the long hitbox on FSmash, but she's got slightly limited options, and hitbox durations can be scary here.
Rating: Uncomfortable

Short distance - This is the best place to be. Her close range moves manage to hit on both sides, and duration isn't such a problem since opponents are easily caught in the moves. She has lots of options here, most of them killers. Nayru's is handy here to interrupt approaches.
Rating: Comfortable

KILLING

Killing power - Zelda shines here. Sweetspotted, she has the strongest forward, backward, and up air in the game, as well as the third strongest spike. They can start killing by 65-80% on the center of FD (save dair). These can be tricky to pull off though. Thankfully, all of Zelda's smashes and most of her tilts have high killing potential. Even her throws and dash attack are strong for what they are. Her specials don't really kill, but she has enough moves to parry between damage racking and killing, assigning specific jobs for each one.
Rating: Amazing

Gimping pot - Offstage gimping is pretty lacking, but her aerials are insanely strong for a move that easy to connect. Zelda's not credited enough for this. It may not be Snake's FSmash, but it's 10 times more likely to hit. I'll settle for average.
Rating: Average

 

[K 2]

Guys, discuss yoshi's edgeguarding ability/ recovery on the Yoshi Forums. Then post here once you come to a consensus...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Guys, discuss yoshi's edgeguarding ability/ recovery on the Yoshi Forums. Then post here once you come to a consensus...

I think me and Ankoku are on the same wavelength or near it.

 

[3transfat]

Given that no one in the Diddy Kong boards is willing to post in the thread, I will go ahead and post what I feel is an accurate description of Diddy's performance in the elements in Brawl.

ZONING

• On The Ground
  On the ground, I believe Diddy Kong has a naturally good zoning game given his nimbleness, reach and various ways to approach, such as bananas, dash attack, sliding up smash, et cetera. However, Diddy's situation is unique, given that a large portion of his ground presence relies on his bananas, and if one encounters a player with banana control, however unlikely it may be, Diddy immediately falls backwards in this area as long as his opponent can keep his bananas in check. This may or may not force the player to stop using bananas, which many players seem to rely on or, continue their efforts.

• In The Air
  In the air, Diddy's zoning is probably medium. Diddy's forward aerial attack has good reach, and his backward aerial is a good approach, due to lack of lag and relatively high priority. His downward aerial, which can spike an opponent at the top of his fists, has the ability to keep opponents at bay, and the same can be said for his Fair, which has high killing ability. Diddy can move around fairly well in the air, has two spikes (Rocket Barrel and Dair) and a fairly good recovery, given the Monkey Flip and the Rocket Barrels.

• Off-Stage
  Off stage, Diddy has the unique ability to spike and recover at the same time, which will often keep opponents who do not know the player or Diddy as well at bay. The good maneuverability allows players to sway back and forth in the air, and the Monkey Flip has good reach and will work not only as a spike, but even more recovery for Diddy. Diddy is dangerous to approach off stage, and it is dangerous to be off stage versus a player who knows how to play off of the stage.

ZONING IN ORDER OF BEST TO WORST

1. On The Ground - Above Average
2. Off-Stage - Average
3. In The Air - Average

SPACING

• Extreme Long Distance
  At an extreme long distance, Diddy is good. The ability to shoot and throw peanuts and glide tossing allow for control over the space in between him and his opponent. Unfortunately, these are Diddy's only projectiles and neither can reach quite as far as need be in this situation. This situation is best for pulling out bananas if you are under pressure.

• Long Distance
  At a long distance, Diddy is better, but still not at his best. The peanuts and the bananas can now reach closer and\or the opponent themselves. This can allow Diddy to approach however, given his average speed, he may not be able to reach his opponent in sufficient time to start a combo. Whats more, most of Diddy's combo starting moves will not reach this point unless you run at your opponent, but would that not put you at medium range?

• Medium Range
  Medium range is Diddy's best. The dash attack, Monkey Flip, sliding up smash, uncharged popgun and bananas all reach at this distance, and can easily start combos. Most Diddy players will want to keep at this distance unless pulling out a banana, as doing so in this case would leave you vulnerable. Everything about Diddy is good at this range.

• Close Range
  At close range, Diddy Kong has potential. The singular jab, the jab combo, the downward tilt, the upward tilt and the sliding up smash are your best options here. All of these attacks are very quick and have decent knockback and combo ability. The jab combo will put an opponent (depending on weight) at medium range allowing for a dash attack -> anything, depending on how you hit with it.

SPACING IN ORDER OF BEST TO WORST

1. Medium Range - Comfortable
2. Close Range - Comfortable
3. Long Distance - Bearable
4. Extreme Long Distance - Uncomforatble

KILLING

• Killing Power
  Killing power is Diddy's weak point, unfortunately. His two strongest moves are forward smash and downward smash. In the case of forward smash, it has two hits, the first, weaker hit, and the stronger, killing hit. The first hit can be directionally influenced and such allowing the opponent to escape from it. The downward smash sweeps around him and retains good knockback near the end of the move. Both of these moves will not kill a heavy character until around 150% damage. But Diddy has other options. His forward aerial, upward aerial, forward throw and upward tilt all have the potential to kill. These moves will not kill a heavy character until around 170% damage however. It is with Diddy's excellent ability to rack up damage comes this cost of low killing potential.

• Gimping Potential
  However, Diddy has an excellent ability to gimp. His good recovery allow for a few mindgames (jumping out at an opponent, making them airdodge, Monkey Flip away) and the like. Diddy also has three spikes. His downward aerial spikes very well and it spikes at the top of the fists even at the end of the move. His Rocket Barrels spike at the bottom of the barrel, simultaneously allowing recovery and a KO. The monkey flip, if the kick is not activated, also has spiking potential. When Diddy latches on to the opponent, the two will sink quickly, and once low enough, a Diddy player will tap up on the control stick, which makes Diddy jump off of his opponent, simultaneously allowing for even more recovery as well as a KO.

KILLING IN ORDER OF BEST TO WORST

1. Gimping Potential - Above Average
2. Killing Power - Below Average

 

[XienZo]

And if you guys want to discuss any new characters, please go to your characters' respective forums and discuss in the topics there (either I made one or someone else already made one) and then post your discussion results here. That way, things are a lot more consistent and easy to keep track of. Thanks.

You're going to have to put this in bold fat letters at the top of the page.

 

[Mmac]

Ya he can escape edgeguards attempts but has trouble punishing them, this is mostly due to landing lag however.

How exactly is this relevant? If he is going to retaliate, he's probably going to hook backwards into a Bair, which has NO LANDING LAG! Only Dair and Fair has landing lag.

See but thats when he's in a defensive position.

I think we all know Defense is not Yoshi's strong point, whether or Air, ground or sea, no matter how many options he has theres always some issue for him with defense.
However put yoshi off stage on the offensive, stopping his Gimping attempts is now harder.
The opponent is now in a defensive position and not Yoshi, Yoshi can cut through offensive attempts with DJAD (most of the time, not all the time) but most people simply can't do that due to the nature of their recoveries.
So most people have to either take Yoshi on aerially or just take the hit.
Taking Yoshi on aerially while he's on the offensive off-stage may not be that smart, people with poor recoveries have a hard time risking that as 1 hit will end in death when they are focusing on getting back to that stage. People with great recoveries/Off stage games, well there is a reason they are in AMAZING right and not in above average with Yoshi.

So the entire thesis is that Yoshi can't gimp people like MetaKnight, ROB, and Jigglypuff (Dedede can be gimped decently though). Yeah, he can't gimp them, but guess what? Nobody else can! MetaKnight can't even gimp other MetaKnights! He can gimp everyone else just fine. Plus he doesn't need a super amazing Edgeguarding game when he has an Excellent Recovery and Ledge Game. Remember, Off Ledge focuses on all 3 fields.

His ledge game isn't that safe, I agree but ECE gives reason for the opponent to approach and try and take him off the edge (though you could just wait him out for when he returns to the stage to refresh),

Again, how is his Ledge Game not safe? How is it worse than anyone else's Ledge Game?

Your guarding the ledge with D-air? I prefer B-air, D-airs range is a little iffy and with Back air I can try and space myself out of range from certain disjointed hitboxed recoveries.
D-air I find (but thats my experience not yours) on people like Jigglypuff and Bowser since you can hit them out of their attack with it.
Also if you Miss a D-air it sucks because your forced to go down with it since it drags you down and lasts a relatively long time. So when you Miss a D-air people should be able to punish you, unless they were really knocked far.

Main reason is that Dair has amazing priority, and it beats out alot of the peoples recoveries. It can miss, but it won't miss if they recover low, and especially if they already used their double jump. If they recover Low and isn't a multi-jump character, they're screwed.

It mostly depends on the character. I find Dair better to use overall

I kinda wonder this too, but Recoveries are better if they can clear people away from you so, in that respect being able to punish while recovering is a benefit. Then again, saving your own skin comes first.....sometimes.

Primary Recovering should always comes first.

Lets take example Mario. Amazing Priority on UpB, and has the possibility to often stage spike. Also a good damage racker. How is it as a Recovery? COMPLETE GARBAGE!

Above Average is very defendable for Yoshi. Amazing is not.

Mmac, if I see Yoshi going off-stage, I pay very close attention to his position off-stage. And typically I'm not half-asleep so I can react quickly enough to hit him if he's chasing me off-stage.

Assuming that you are using Sheik as an example, don't you think that Attacking Back is extremely risky if you are below the ledge? Not to mention that I think Bair beats Fair.

Guys, discuss yoshi's edgeguarding ability/ recovery on the Yoshi Forums. Then post here once you come to a consensus...

NEVAR!

..... fine

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Given that no one in the Diddy Kong boards is willing to post in the thread, I will go ahead and post what I feel is an accurate description of Diddy's performance in the elements in Brawl.

ZONING

• On The Ground
  On the ground, I believe Diddy Kong has a naturally good zoning game given his nimbleness, reach and various ways to approach, such as bananas, dash attack, sliding up smash, et cetera. However, Diddy's situation is unique, given that a large portion of his ground presence relies on his bananas, and if one encounters a player with banana control, however unlikely it may be, Diddy immediately falls backwards in this area as long as his opponent can keep his bananas in check. This may or may not force the player to stop using bananas, which many players seem to rely on or, continue their efforts.

• In The Air
  In the air, Diddy's zoning is probably medium. Diddy's forward aerial attack has good reach, and his backward aerial is a good approach, due to lack of lag and relatively high priority. His downward aerial, which can spike an opponent at the top of his fists, has the ability to keep opponents at bay, and the same can be said for his Fair, which has high killing ability. Diddy can move around fairly well in the air, has two spikes (Rocket Barrel and Dair) and a fairly good recovery, given the Monkey Flip and the Rocket Barrels.

• Off-Stage
  Off stage, Diddy has the unique ability to spike and recover at the same time, which will often keep opponents who do not know the player or Diddy as well at bay. The good maneuverability allows players to sway back and forth in the air, and the Monkey Flip has good reach and will work not only as a spike, but even more recovery for Diddy. Diddy is dangerous to approach off stage, and it is dangerous to be off stage versus a player who knows how to play off of the stage.

ZONING IN ORDER OF BEST TO WORST

1. On The Ground - Above Average
2. Off-Stage - Average
3. In The Air - Average

SPACING

• Extreme Long Distance
  At an extreme long distance, Diddy is good. The ability to shoot and throw peanuts and glide tossing allow for control over the space in between him and his opponent. Unfortunately, these are Diddy's only projectiles and neither can reach quite as far as need be in this situation. This situation is best for pulling out bananas if you are under pressure.

• Long Distance
  At a long distance, Diddy is better, but still not at his best. The peanuts and the bananas can now reach closer and\or the opponent themselves. This can allow Diddy to approach however, given his average speed, he may not be able to reach his opponent in sufficient time to start a combo. Whats more, most of Diddy's combo starting moves will not reach this point unless you run at your opponent, but would that not put you at medium range?

• Medium Range
  Medium range is Diddy's best. The dash attack, Monkey Flip, sliding up smash, uncharged popgun and bananas all reach at this distance, and can easily start combos. Most Diddy players will want to keep at this distance unless pulling out a banana, as doing so in this case would leave you vulnerable. Everything about Diddy is good at this range.

• Close Range
  At close range, Diddy Kong has potential. The singular jab, the jab combo, the downward tilt, the upward tilt and the sliding up smash are your best options here. All of these attacks are very quick and have decent knockback and combo ability. The jab combo will put an opponent (depending on weight) at medium range allowing for a dash attack -> anything, depending on how you hit with it.

SPACING IN ORDER OF BEST TO WORST

1. Medium Range - Amazing
2. Close Range - Above Average
3. Long Distance - Average
4. Extreme Long Distance - Below Average

KILLING

• Killing Power
  Killing power is Diddy's weak point, unfortunately. His two strongest moves are forward smash and downward smash. In the case of forward smash, it has two hits, the first, weaker hit, and the stronger, killing hit. The first hit can be directionally influenced and such allowing the opponent to escape from it. The downward smash sweeps around him and retains good knockback near the end of the move. Both of these moves will not kill a heavy character until around 150% damage. But Diddy has other options. His forward aerial, upward aerial, forward throw and upward tilt all have the potential to kill. These moves will not kill a heavy character until around 170% damage however. It is with Diddy's excellent ability to rack up damage comes this cost of low killing potential.

• Gimping Potential
  However, Diddy has an excellent ability to gimp. His good recovery allow for a few mindgames (jumping out at an opponent, making them airdodge, Monkey Flip away) and the like. Diddy also has three spikes. His downward aerial spikes very well and it spikes at the top of the fists even at the end of the move. His Rocket Barrels spike at the bottom of the barrel, simultaneously allowing recovery and a KO. The monkey flip, if the kick is not activated, also has spiking potential. When Diddy latches on to the opponent, the two will sink quickly, and once low enough, a Diddy player will tap up on the control stick, which makes Diddy jump off of his opponent, simultaneously allowing for even more recovery as well as a KO.

KILLING IN ORDER OF BEST TO WORST

1. Gimping Potential - Above Average
2. Killing Power - Below Average

the spacing category has three different ratings. comfortable,bearable, and uncomfortable.
you should change that for better clarity of how he does in each area.

 

[Ganon4President]

I think you gave not to much credit to Ganon. I mean, is the ability to handle people spamming projectiles really a factor for a tier list. To be good with ganon, you just have to be able to dodge well and then you'll be able to land some of the strongest combos any character can do. Just give him another chance.

 

[DRaGZ]

You're going to have to put this in bold fat letters at the top of the page.

Good idea.

And sorry for not updating, midterm johns.

Uhm, I will update this like a madman after Thursday, I swear.

 

[Natch]

Falco and Wolf are above average ground wise. Falco has a CG and Wolf has amazing Smashes.I really don't need to say more about them they have much more than that but just stating the obvious.
Lucas has nice tilts but would you honestly be on the ground abusing your ground game?
Lucas has PK Fire-Which can be dodged easily and is more effective in the air incorporated with Wavebouncing. I would use PK fire more in the air than on the ground for the fact being that you have mobility while aerial. He has a Tether grab which is punishable if you miss and is most effective as a recovery. Usable on the ground yes but there are better options than this. Tilts are nice but aren't abusable. Consider using them after a NAir for comboliscious results. Jab is nice nothing special.
Overall Lucas performs better in the air than on the ground. And trying to abuse the small fraction of good ground related moves he has is a bad idea. He has nice ground moves Usable but not abusable thats why they are classified as average. Giving him above average or considering to give him Amazing...........no no no no no. BTW Lucas doesn't have a fantastic recovery game. He's a very easy character to gimp and keep off stage.

LUCAS HAS BETTER AIR GAME THAN GROUND GAME LULZ.

Assuming an opponent is too close for PK Fire, these are all the characters I am 100% sure can beat you out in the air:

1. MK
2. GaW
3. DDD
4. ROB
5. Snake
6. Wolf
7. Diddy
8. Ness
9. Ike
10. Lucario

Last time I checked, Falco out does him too. My friend recently picked up Falco-about 1-2 weeks ago-but I haven't played against him so much that I can say off the top of my head if Falco has better priority. If this is true BTW, it means that all of top tier has better air priority than him.

Next up, his ground game.

When on the ground, Lucas can zone the following areas:

-The Ground
-The Air: PK Freeze, PK Thunder
-Off Stage: PK Freeze, PK Thunder, PK Thunder

His Jab is frame 2. Only ZSS has a faster jab. He ties with Shiek and Squirtle. His Tether, while laggy, can be pivoted to remove lots of lag. As well, Lucas is going to be a smart about using that lag-tastic grab. That's like saying Snake sucks on the ground because he has a laggy Fsmash and it's punishable so obviously he will spam it. To continue, PK Fire is a good projectile which actually has uses on the ground. SH'd PK Fires are so expected that grounded PK Fires suddenly become the "surprise" option. PK Freeze is absolutely great at pressuring, even if it is easily shielded. It's a giant snowflake. It's hard not to pay attention to it. If you're focusing on it, you're not focusing on anything else except that you need to shield this huge projectile about to freeze your ***.

Lucas also has some good smashes. Fsmash is a very strong, pretty quick kill move, and Dsmash is one of the best way to punish predicted rolls and spot dodges.

And now, his recovery game. First off, great form, saying his tether is better as a recovery, then not mentioning it when talking about his recovery. Second, while Lucas can be hit out of PK Thunder, the opponent has a very small window in which to do so. Too early, and he's hit by PK Thunder itself. Too late, and Lucas is now an unstoppable human missile. And if Lucas is hit out of it, PK Thunder has huge range. And unless Lucas is spiked-and this would be after he was knocked off stage in the first place-he was sent upwards. Horizontal air speed is good for Lucas, so he can just float back into a position where PK Thunder is a more convinient option. Even if they're edge hogging, Lucas can simply aim for above the ledge.

To demonstrate an idea of what PK Thunder can do, watch the very end of this video, starting at around 2:16. I use PK Thunder to spike cancel and make it back to the stage from a very tricky angle. PK Thunder is very good recovery, no two ways about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF14aeupJ-U

For Zap Jumping, Tetherig, Magnet Pull, Double Jump stuff, re-read my original post where I rate everything Lucas has. Seriously. Also, keep in mind that when I spike-canceled with that PK Thunder, I had aim it without actually being able to see it. That's how well I know Lucas.

Now, if you wanna tell me what's what regarding the character I have been consistantly maining since Brawl came out-this means over 6 1/2 months-then please, go ahead. But unless you go to and actively post in the Lucas boards or are a longtime Lucas main yourself, keep it to yourself, please.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The numbers for Wolf are wrong. The guy who wrote them was just some nub, who perhaps doesn't even play Wolf (mine and ArcPoints interpretations are more accurate)

 

[DRaGZ]

I addressed this on the Wolf boards. Until a better analysis is done, Wolf is removed.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I addressed this on the Wolf boards. Until a better analysis is done, Wolf is removed.

Wolf still has the same score.

Are you going to replace your own scores with the scores the character boards give their own characters?

 

[mario brawler]

wow this was just amazing
SUCCESS!

 

[DRaGZ]

Oh, I just forgot to remove the score. My bad.

 

[Flayl]

It might take a while (bowser board™ while) for someone to dispute my avaliation, so here goes:

ZONING

• On the ground: With a FTilt that has a huge range, 2 very quick attacks that swat opponents away when they're too close and tons of grab release options, Bowser really shines on the ground. Rating: Above Average
• In the air: Bowser has poor reach on all of his aerials and has a huge weak point directly beneath him, which can be countered by bowser bombing the ledge. FAir and NAir come out fast while BAir and UAir are among the most powerful of their kind. His OverB however is excellent against grounded foes who intend to shield or even dodge Bowser's aerial approach, as it has no landing lag. Rating: Below Average
• Off-stage: Bowser has very few options off the stage. His only recovery is his UpB, which thankfully, has invincibility frames and comes out fast. Horizontal recovery usually is not a problem, but Bowser's vertical recovery is only slightly better than DK's, there are very few situations where he is able to recover after being sent downward - not necessarilly by a spike. He has good ledgehop options in his FAir and OverB and a situational one in his UpB. Rating: Below Average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: As for Bowser specific options - Bowser can approach far off targets by staying in the air as much as possible with his klaw jumps or fortressing the opponent's projectiles. Rating: Uncomfortable.
• Long distance: A short hopped Firebreath works wonders against non-projectile foes that prefer remaining close to the ground. That's it. Rating: Uncomfortable.
• Medium distance: While FTilt covers a great distance, it is a bit heavy on the commitment side. FSmash must be precisely spaced, as Bowser's hurtbox is carried with him as he performs the move. Rating: Bearable
• Short distance: Bowser's defensive game is amazing: Fortress, jabs and grabs. Rating: Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Although he kills a little later than most of the heavies, he has a wide arsenal of KO moves so there is no fear of stale moves. Getting a grab can assure a KO on a lot of characters. Rating: Amazing
• Gimping potential: Firebreath can gimp a select few characters. A downward tilted FTilt or a DTilt can gimp horizontal recoveries aimed for the ledge. Otherwise Bowser can jump off for a FAir or BAir. The former is faster while the latter has more knockback. Rating: Below Average

Depending on what the average actually is, Bowser's air game could be average. Some Bowser mains will probably say he is comfortable at medium distance but I don't agree. If a dodged FTilt can punished with a FSmash by a large part of the cast it's not fast enough.

 

[Anomilus]

I should do one for Ike as well. Gonna do just a little bit of research though before I do so I don't make too many mistakes.

 

[Samuelson]

The Lucario one that was submitted earlier was discussed by a bunch of Lucario mains in our chat room. It should be put up.

 

[ZeroFox]

I absolutely love this thread. Hope it gets completed some time soon with information for all characters.

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, one thing I was thinking of perhaps adding was "survivability", since this issue was brought up before, although I thought it was addressed in "off-stage", some people think it deserves its own thing.

What do you guys think?

 

[HeroMystic]

I think it'll be good to add on a survivability section because Brawl is a very defensive game. Off-stage doesn't really cut it because you have to prevent from going off-stage, which also adds onto survivability.

And I know the Mario and Ike boards are pretty concerned that there is no talk about defensive abilities and is more focused on offensive gaming.

 

[DRaGZ]

Interesting.

I think survivability only needs three levels for rating, like "Comfortable", "Bearable", and "Uncomfortable", since I don't think there is necessarily that much subtlety in how well a character comes back.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda

Sums it up perfectly.

 

[crewster]

Elements Of Brawl, Captain Falcon

ZONING

• On the ground-O.K. (Smashes, Falcon Kick)
• In the air-Good (Knee, Uair, Bair)
• Off-stage-V. Good (Knee, Dair Spike, Punch)

SPACING

• Extreme long distance-None
• Long distance-O.K. (Ub, Sb)
• Medium distance-Good (Ub, Sb)
• Short distance-V. Good (Smashes, U+D+B+Fair)

KILLING

• Killing power-Good (Smashes, Punch, Knee)
• Gimping potential-V. Good (Ariel-Punch, Knee)
  
  Hop you like my Ideas

 

[Roager]

I made a different analysis of Captain Falcon. Cuz I disagree with Crewster's.
Its in the Falcon Boards, cuz I didn't want to clog up this thread with two Falcon summaries in a row

 

[Browny]

OK it seems everyone here has a different idea about the whole zoning/spacing thing to me. please correct me if im wrong.

the way i see it, Zoning refers to how easily a character can close the gap, or retreat safely from an enemy, not including attacks. then when we come to spacing, this is how well a character can keep the enemy in range with actual attacks, not just movement. So im assuming, for example, while DK may have incredible (if not the best) spacing on the ground, his actual ground-based zoning is terrible. Conversely, Diddy has great ground based zoning while his ground spacing isnt all that good (minus a banana in hand)

 

[Roager]

OK it seems everyone here has a different idea about the whole zoning/spacing thing to me. please correct me if im wrong.

the way i see it, Zoning refers to how easily a character can close the gap, or retreat safely from an enemy, not including attacks. then when we come to spacing, this is how well a character can keep the enemy in range with actual attacks, not just movement. So im assuming, for example, while DK may have incredible (if not the best) spacing on the ground, his actual ground-based zoning is terrible. Conversely, Diddy has great ground based zoning while his ground spacing isnt all that good (minus a banana in hand)

Good point. That was unclear. I think Zoning is an overall judgement of how well they hold up in a fight, and Spacing is specifically how well they can use range to their advantage... So yeah...